milo bloom

You're joking, right? It rewrote itself constantly, but generally for the better. The OT had Darth Vader going from Tarkin's lackey to #2 in the whole Imperial structure, Vader going from the guy who killed Anakin Skywalker, to being Anakin Skywalker and Luke and Leia going from just two people who met up, to becoming twins separated at birth.

If you want to make that kind of charge against the other films, that they didn't use their lore breaking for good, that's a reasonable take, but you can't exclude the OT from that kind of discussion.

xe.kilroy

The OT didn't discredit itself like the ST did. ST discredited the PT and OT as well as itself, and egregiously so. The things you mention are very minor or minimal plot evolutions that don't break the lore of the prior films. They weren't reaches, the certain point of view. Palpatine staying alive is a huge reach for example, that also alters the OT, not a minimal change

John Pannozzi

That, and the PT made Anakin/Vader C-3PO's creator and Chewie an old acquittance of Yoda's.

windom

I don't think Anakin was C-3PO's creator. He just reassembled him. Possibly from multiple droids' parts.

xe.kilroy

If I were to re-do the ST, the key is episode 7, as the next two have to follow the paths and choices that ep7 made.

Main points....

I like the defecting stormtrooper, but I'd explore it far more before Finn ever meets Poe and gang.

The First Order would be a marginalized and small entity, hunted down by the Galactic Republic, who are seen to not be so different from the Empire. In fact, i'd spin it so that the First Order is now like the Rebellion, the impoverished protagonists out-gunned and out-manned. Both sides are shown to be good and bad tho, the lines blurred.

Rey is still the new Luke undertaking a hero's journey, but like Mulan, has to work thru adversity etc to rise and achieve eventual greatness in the latter episodes.

There is no Kylo Ren yet. Just Ben Solo still studying with Luke at the academy. But what happens is Snoke (who is Snoke and not Palpatine's clone or transference), is the sinister force behind the First Order, as TFA projected him. Both Snoke and the Galactic Republic try to seduce Ben to their side because his Jedi powers are so great that his allegiance would help swing the battle between the FO and the GR.

Snoke has a chamelleon-like force power, able to appear as like a young female student at Luke's academy that Ben has the hots for or confides in is probably better.

Luke eventually starts to twig onto a darkside presence, even more finely tuned than what Palpatine was, but he has a hard time pinpointing or exposing it. Luke and Ben start having arguments, Luke punishing/admonishing Ben (tough love) that starts to tip Ben to animosity for Luke. Also Ben still idolizes Vader, another source of Luke and Bens ongoing issues.

Snoke is still billed as that ancient entity that saw the whole Empire from far away, all the mistakes Palpatine made, just like TFA.

Rey, Poe and Finn all run into each other by happenstance around midway thru the film and form a friendship. Finn has escaped the FO stormtrooper facility for the same reasons, the needless bloodshed etc, but with another defecting stormtrooper. But that guy dies in the crash on Jakku. Finn travels the desert, meets Rey, she helps hide him from bounty hunters and a FO search party, she hungers adventure and is a kind soul too. They escape Jakku together, but not in the Falcon. They meet some FO resistance in space but Poe happens to be around and shoots down the enemies, he's an ace. But Rey/Finn and even Poe's ship are damaged in the fight, so they must land on some planet/moon and regroup. That's where they meet Han/Chewy (in a cantina) and escape on the Falcon. Same talk about Jedis and the Force as we saw in TFA All three are mesmerized and in awe by these stories and of Luke etc.

We can have then Leia and Han interactions showing a frayed relationship on account of Ben's troubles with Luke as well as Han getting back into adventures and bounties given Leia is so also focused on career and the Republic. Just drifting apart.

That disguised Snoke-girl introduces Ben to her friends, the knights of ren, an unruly gang of acolytes who delve in darkside practices and worship. Ben is seduced by it all, the power, the animosity, feeling misunderstood, etc, and a celebrity to them being Vader's grandson. They all go and torch Luke's academy, killing students, Luke is out of town at the time, was catching up with Leia prior to the Leia and Han scene above.

Luke comes back, sees the debris, flames, dead bodies, and sinks to his knees with R2 by his side. The very end scene is Snoke-girl revealing herself to Ben. Perhaps like this...Ben and her are hugging, maybe even a kiss, and then she changes her appearance back to Snoke, Ben stumbles back, horrified but also overawed by Snoke's power, succumbing, unable to stave off Snoke.

Notes...

You could do it in some artistic manner where Snoke and/or Snoke-girl is a psychosis in Ben. His own darkside manifesting itself outwardly. Whilst also still being Snoke himself reaching out to him far away mentally. SW touching on Ingmar Bergman levels there.

The rebellion was kind of a small band of people compared to the reach and might of the Empire. It'd just be the same except the FO now like the Rebellion and the Republic the one with all the might and reach. Still allows the FO to be a threat. Having Ben on their side means he turns into Kylo Ren in ep8, where he really turns the battle around, just like Anakin did in the Clone Wars.

xe.kilroy

My gut feeling is we won't see movies for quite a long time, perhaps not ever again (big call). Reckon Disney will just focus on D+ content -- cartoons, live action series and mini-series.

Partly due to keeping things known, the saga and its tropes, needing them, unable/unwilling to imagine or re-imagine whole new ideas etc. And partly due to economics and such.

Jay G.

Star Wars: Rogue Squadron is still scheduled for a December 2023 theatrical release. Also, Taika Waititi is working on a Star Wars movie which is anticipated to start production early 2023.

story

Is this the part where your post doesn't come off as sexist because having a tempting woman (or someone disguised as a tempting woman or the psychosis manifestation of a tempting woman) as the downfall of a good man is at the crux of the story? I'll give the idea credit, it's certainly not "woke," but it sure comes off as another kind of agenda.

xe.kilroy

Yep, tho Boba and Obi were the next movies slated and never made it to the cinema, and Johnson's trilogy also never made it (yet) either.

xe.kilroy

​​​It's great having women in film/TV as leads, as the strong heroic types, stories centered around women beyond just women's issues. Adventures, comedies, dramas, where years ago it was always male-centric roles.

But having women be perfect and infallible and men as often the bad, stupid, incapable, subservient, is where story-telling, characters and character development falls apart. In the real world, it's men and women equal, leaning on each other for various abilities/wisdom.

What's so wrong about having movies where each gender has good and evil characters, weak and strong ones, smart and stupid characters, etc? That's the thinking behind the Snoke idea. Or wish-list with that female Sith show ...having a range of characters represented. Remember, Kylo isn't shown to be great in that idea either. He's a brat, murderer, has a psychosis. Did you conveniently ignore that? In my ST idea, there'd be a range of male/female characters as good and bad. Which is far more interesting, and more gender role equality shown, not typecasting men and women.

Rogue One was great because both Jyn Erso and Cassian Andor were equal, had their strong and weak moments, both had to fight thru adversities and neither was perfect and infallible.

The push to equalize women with men in film is fine, but the worst efforts are those where the women are perfect and infallible, or born great and conquer all without an arc of growth, self-discovery, maturation. Not only is it unrealistic and doesn't adhere audiences to that perfect character, it also doesn't send a good message out in general to people, kids, of hard work and overcoming obstacles, etc. It's bad writing, bad messaging, regardless whether it's women or male characters who are written that way.

Jay G.

Rey isn't infallible, she makes some big mistakes in TLJ. Also, Rose makes many of same mistakes and Poe and Finn in TLJ. But when you only have, what, 4-5 female characters of note, compared to a dozen or so men, it's hard to diversify and show the same range you can do with all those male characters.

Also, your revised Ep 7 synopsis marginalizes the female roles even more. Rey is no longer an individual that sets out on a quest, but a "helper" for Poe that he picks up on the way. You say almost nothing about what Leia's role in your revised film would be, other than in relation to Han.

Additionally, your thoughts on Ep 7 are influenced too much by what Ep 7 turned out to be. If it's to be different, perhaps genders could be changed on some characters, or some characters maybe don't exist at all. You're attempting to retrofit the existing storylines, but then you end up falling into the same traps because it's ultimately the same overall arc. You still have a rehash of the original trilogy storyline, with a "Big Bad" villain completely separate from our protagonists, and a character that has "fallen" to the dark side, influenced by the Big Bad, and leaving it open for possible redemption. How does this not play out just like it originally did, following the same tropes? I personally was a big fan of TLJ because it seemed to be steering strongly away from just repeating the OT, that maybe the world was murkier and more grey instead of stark good vs evil tropes, and maybe not everyone fallen can be save, but JJ Abrams obviously didn't know what to do with that and steered hard back to just repeating the OT, but worse.

xe.kilroy

I didn't want to write a full outline that was TL;DR , just trying to give a few thoughts. I don't mind TFA at heart, so there are story elements I'd still keep, just changing a few things, and getting rid of the mystery box. Rey would still be Rey, but the film would make her and Finn the co-leads, their stories more entwined. Ben Solo isn't even Kylo until ep8. So there are big portions of ep7 that wouldn't exist. More a character piece on Rey and Finn, strangers who become unlikely friends by happenstance and their journey together as they both seek escape from their realities, and end up on an adventure along with Poe eventually. Also an equal character piece on Ben Solo's fall. Setting up all three slowly in ep7 so that by ep8 their choices and fates crash head-on in ep8 and ep9. I'd get rid of Hux and make Phasma the Hux character, not in armor, just a normally dressed FO leader. Luke has a bigger part and is seen from the very start in his academy. Leia still has her basic storyline. Maz might still exist when they all land their damaged ships on that planet and meet Han there for the first time. The FO isn't as big as it is, a marginal entity that is spun like the Rebels of the OT, whilst this new regime in power post-Empire, the Republic, isn't as good and clean as everyone had hoped. That's pretty different. Didn't delve into the details showing the FO and GR as both good/bad in their own ways, I'd have to think about it, perhaps something to do with hunting down ex-Empire, slaying them, correctionaliziing them immorally, perhaps mining of planets and use of slave labor still, etc.

xe.kilroy

The Marvelization of force powers is yet another horrible trend of Disney. TFA was reasonable. But from TLJ to TROS to Obi-Wan it's become laughable. SW force sensitives aren't fantastical super heroes, they are real world beings who are finding an extra degree. It should remain within a certain limit or else there's no end to the stupidity and expansion.

MLBFan24

My only main complaint with the Disney era films and tv shows - death means nothing and Lucas-era characters aren’t really dead and appear in subsequent media.

xe.kilroy

If I was in charge of D+ I'd drastically change Boba and TM shows, more grim and dramatic. I'd shelve Obi season 2, and I'd torch any idea of a Reva show. Instead, I'd have her make an appearance in Andor where she joins the Rebellion and gets killed off quickly. I'd start production on non-Saga tv show ideas as well as Saga tv shows....but where the focus is on portraying the Empire/Sith as protagonists. From their pov. Exploring their world. A show about general life on the Death Star, as one idea. Another idea would be to do Claudia Gray's Lost Stars. Reckon that has legs to be something.

D+ subscriptions would probably fall dramatically and fans hate me on youtube, but that's what I'd do.

Jay G.

Would the OT have been better if Luke had been "co-lead" with Han? You're diminishing the role of Star Wars' first female lead protagonist. The dudes took the lead in 6 episodes, let a woman have 3 of them.

Also, it's not "woke" to have a "perfect and infallible" female character, that's just bad writing, and it can happen to male characters to. The fact that you blame "wokeness" for any female character you don't like is pretty damning.

How much time do you think actually exists in a movie? Or would you want the film to be 3+ hours long? Like, the current episode 7 spends a good amount of time setting up both Finn and Rey. Poe does get a bit of the short shrift, but that's because he was supposed to die in the Tie Fighter crash, and is sort of tagged on in the last act. It's not like Luke, Leia, and Han were "set up slowly" in the original film, or Obi-Wan and Anakin in Episode 1. This film series has a tradition of briefly introducing characters, giving a little bit more time to the main protagonist, before blasting them headfirst into adventure.

TGM

the problem with an Obi-Wan S2 is you can't have him face off directly against Vader again. you were pushing the continuity with A New Hope as it is, any further meetups between the two will strain an already tenuous timeline.

Michael Corvin

Glorifying villains in an era when we have literal Nazis running our government doesn't seem like the best plan.

xe.kilroy

Well, with my ep7, where Ben is still Ben at the end, it means there's more film time to further explore all of Rey, Finn, Poe and Ben before there is even a Kylo Ren, before the FO is even big/strong enough to be a danger/threat. A lot of the stuff you do see in TFA involving Kylo/FO, would thus only start to be shown in my ep8. Stuff like Kylo killing villagers, capturing and torturing Poe, kidnapping Rey, etc. And I wouldn't even obviously have a SKB idea at all, so there'd be some other space battle devised for ep8 that is merely a precursor to some ultimate showdown in my ep9.

So, my ep7 would not need to rush things along, the ending is a completely different point in time and situation to where the end of TFA is.

So more time for Rey, Finn, Poe to interact with each other, have adventures. Remember how a complaint with the ST was how all those three never really got to share a lot of screen time together, Poe didnt even get formally introduced to Rey till the very end of TLJ, and much was made of giving all three characters all those adventures together in TROS to make up for it.

xe.kilroy

Glorifying is not the right word. They are already doing a show about Siths. So that'll be from their pov. And who hasn't wanted a live action revolving around Thrawn or Bane...both again from their pov, from the Empires and Siths. Books like the rise of Plagueis, Palpatine, Tarkin are also from their pov. Lost Stars is a great concept too...the pov of young kids growing up dreaming of a life in the Empire as pilots, friends split apart some working with the Empire, some with the Rebellion, and also dabbles in the general life of people on the Death Star, and the horrors of its destruction, all the regular people who died in that, how the Rebels destroying it also perceived as a terrorist action.

Jay G.

*raises hand* As someone who loved the Timothy Zahn books, Thrawn is obviously an antagonist. And I only have a dim sense of who Bane may be, maybe founder of the Sith? Those aren't really compelling characters to wrap a story around except for maybe the hardcore fans.


This isn't true, because you're swapping an intro of Kylo with an intro of Ben, and then also shoving in the backstory of how Ben became Kylo from TLJ into the first film. Not to mention giving screentime to Luke in the first film. Your proposed film is far busier with more characters and story.

Remember in the OT how Obi-Wan, Vader, and Yoda never really got to share a lot of screen time together? Oh wait, the OT wasn't focused on those characters, they were supporting characters, just like the OT cast was in the ST. Many people seem to judge the ST against their ideal ST that would've been short at least 20 years earlier, and not what the ST actually was: a continuation with a focus on the new characters and cast, with the older characters in a supporting role.

Josh-da-man

This is Disney we're talking about. They just want to milk their cash cow for all it's worth. Continuity isn't even a consideration. (And, yes, continuity was sketchy under Lucas, too. Leia remembers how mother, how?)

milo bloom

The Force.

She remembers (just barely, keep in mind) her mother Padme, via the goddamn, motherfucking, Jesus-tap dancing-Christing on a goddamn bicycle Force.

Can we please move on from this inane question?

stvn1974

Nah, Leia says her mother died when she was very young. Not "she died 8 seconds after giving birth to me".

Just more shitty writing by Lucas when it came to the prequels.

dan30oly

We had nazis in our government? When did this happen?