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Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by chuckd21
(Post 11828108)
But the People Can Fly guy said the 360 was more powerful than the PS3...
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Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Point being, despite technicalities I don't recall a single person in 8 years claiming the 360 was the most powerful system this gen. It's widely perceived the PS3 had the edge under the hood.
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Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Playable One games at TGS:
TitanFall Forza Motorsport 5 Ryse: Son of Rome Crimson Dragon Kinect Sports Rivals Max: The Curse of Brotherhood Killer Instinct FIFA 14 World Class Soccer |
Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by Michael Corvin
(Post 11828134)
Point being, despite technicalities I don't recall a single person in 8 years claiming the 360 was the most powerful system this gen. It's widely perceived the PS3 had the edge under the hood.
Was one system visually more powerful/impressive than the other? I remember hearing some games had issues on the PS3, but don't remember anything about the graphics, like I did with PS2 vs Xbox. |
Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by Music
(Post 11828167)
I remember hearing some games had issues on the PS3, but don't remember anything about the graphics, like I did with PS2 vs Xbox.
The fact that both of these new systems are essentially based on standard PC hardware means we should see far less of that, on both sides. So no matter which console you get, we should all be getting more stable cross-platform games. :up: |
Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by Music
(Post 11828167)
And actually it never really even mattered did it?
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Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
I haven't been keeping up with this, but is the camera thing still a requirement, where the system won't work with it not plugged in, and will it always bee watching/listening? Or did they scrap that whole thing?
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Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Graphically, PS3 and Xbox 360 were the same. In actual performance, mostly in the first years (3-4), the 360 was better. Specially for big games like Fallout and recently Skyrim. In general the PS3 was harder to program, but even when third parties learned to maximize it, they still had to look for workarounds. Again check the Skyrim issues. But yeah, those issues were mostly with some kind of games. FPS and most games, performance was almost the same by the end.
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Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by slop101
(Post 11828351)
I haven't been keeping up with this, but is the camera thing still a requirement, where the system won't work with it not plugged in, and will it always bee watching/listening? Or did they scrap that whole thing?
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Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by Dan
(Post 11828355)
You can leave it unplugged now. Forever, if you like. But if you pop in a Kinect-required game, you'll be asked to plug it in or quit.
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Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
It's funny to me that people would still be that paranoid.
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Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by fumanstan
(Post 11828454)
It's funny to me that people would still be that paranoid.
I could see a situation where the US government could try to persuade MS to let them snoop on a given suspect, especially considering the product is going to be released worldwide and the USA has shown a considerable lack of respect for foreign citizens' privacy. |
Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
I don't know how some of you aren't jumping off bridges at this point with these levels of paranoia.
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Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
I sincerely hope that our government is able to use technology better than a freaking Kinect to spy on people.
I want Bond/Mission Impossible stuff used when spying on folks. Or at least the Wire level of technology. If it came out they were using a video game console's camera... that is just embarrassing. |
Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by Jay G.
(Post 11828495)
Why is it so paranoid? The Xbox One never technically turns off, since it can do system updates in the background. It's not that hard to imagine a scenario where MS could issue a command to turn it and the Kinect on remotely, then take video/audio of the room. What's more, the facial recognition could recognize who's in the room, and who's speaking.
I could see a situation where the US government could try to persuade MS to let them snoop on a given suspect, especially considering the product is going to be released worldwide and the USA has shown a considerable lack of respect for foreign citizens' privacy. |
Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by xmiyux
(Post 11828504)
I sincerely hope that our government is able to use technology better than a freaking Kinect to spy on people.
I want Bond/Mission Impossible stuff used when spying on folks. Or at least the Wire level of technology. If it came out they were using a video game console's camera... that is just embarrassing. |
Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by fumanstan
(Post 11828512)
I'm not sure how you could type all that and ask "Why is it so paranoid?"
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Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by fumanstan
(Post 11828512)
I'm not sure how you could type all that and ask "Why is it so paranoid?"
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Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by chuckd21
(Post 11828161)
Playable One games at TGS:
TitanFall Forza Motorsport 5 Ryse: Son of Rome Crimson Dragon Kinect Sports Rivals Max: The Curse of Brotherhood Killer Instinct FIFA 14 World Class Soccer |
Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by fumanstan
(Post 11828512)
I'm not sure how you could type all that and ask "Why is it so paranoid?"
I typically keep my webcam unplugged because of the off chance of malware infecting my PC and using it for spying by random individuals. I imagine the Xbox/Kinect system will be a bit more secure, but still. The only way to be absolutely sure nobody is using the Kinect to spy on you is to unplug it. MS is hoping you leave the Kinect plugged in and used as much as possible so they can track you for advertising purposes. http://bgr.com/2013/05/28/xbox-one-k...ensor-rewards/ |
Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Also, Lens of Truth is a pretty good site that compares the graphics & frame rate of games across different platforms.
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Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by chuckd21
(Post 11828517)
I like the notion that terrorists are playing Kinect games.
Originally Posted by Jay G.
(Post 11828575)
MS is hoping you leave the Kinect plugged in and used as much as possible so they can track you for advertising purposes.
http://bgr.com/2013/05/28/xbox-one-k...ensor-rewards/ I use a loyalty card at a grocery store. They of course monitor all my purchases. I now get personalized coupons sent to me that are far more useful and badass than they ever were. Google does targeted advertising and now that ads on some of the sites I frequent are more targeted to me I find myself actually being interested sometimes. I have discovered cool Kickstarters that way. Board games that way. Neat shops on Etsy or just some random new vintage or repro clothing store. I wouldn't have encountered those without the ads being targeted. So I click through which helps them and the targeting finds me stuff I would like which helps me. :shrug: Seems reasonable to me and preferable to all kinds of stupid ads that would never interest me. |
Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by Jay G.
(Post 11828575)
I don't personally buy it, but what I meant was that it wasn't that outlandish.
I typically keep my webcam unplugged because of the off chance of malware infecting my PC and using it for spying by random individuals. I imagine the Xbox/Kinect system will be a bit more secure, but still. The only way to be absolutely sure nobody is using the Kinect to spy on you is to unplug it. MS is hoping you leave the Kinect plugged in and used as much as possible so they can track you for advertising purposes. http://bgr.com/2013/05/28/xbox-one-k...ensor-rewards/ |
Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
Originally Posted by fumanstan
(Post 11828611)
Seems outlandish to me. And still paranoid.
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Re: Xbox One: Thoughts Turn Ironic on November 22nd
These are all the comments Penello made on NeoGAF. Source of links are from here. I know Stu posted the first one, but here's all of them in order of posting:
I see my statements the other day caused more of a stir than I had intended. I saw threads locking down as fast as they pop up, so I apologize for the delayed response. I was hoping my comments would lead the discussion to be more about the games (and the fact that games on both systems look great) as a sign of my point about performance, but unfortunately I saw more discussion of my credibility. So I thought I would add more detail to what I said the other day, that perhaps people can debate those individual merits instead of making personal attacks. This should hopefully dismiss the notion I'm simply creating FUD or spin. I do want to be super clear: I'm not disparaging Sony. I'm not trying to diminish them, or their launch or what they have said. But I do need to draw comparisons since I am trying to explain that the way people are calculating the differences between the two machines isn't completely accurate. I think I've been upfront I have nothing but respect for those guys, but I'm not a fan of the mis-information about our performance. So, here are couple of points about some of the individual parts for people to consider: • 18 CU's vs. 12 CU's =/= 50% more performance. Multi-core processors have inherent inefficiency with more CU's, so it's simply incorrect to say 50% more GPU. • Adding to that, each of our CU's is running 6% faster. It's not simply a 6% clock speed increase overall. • We have more memory bandwidth. 176gb/sec is peak on paper for GDDR5. Our peak on paper is 272gb/sec. (68gb/sec DDR3 + 204gb/sec on ESRAM). ESRAM can do read/write cycles simultaneously so I see this number mis-quoted. • We have at least 10% more CPU. Not only a faster processor, but a better audio chip also offloading CPU cycles. • We understand GPGPU and its importance very well. Microsoft invented Direct Compute, and have been using GPGPU in a shipping product since 2010 - it's called Kinect. • Speaking of GPGPU - we have 3X the coherent bandwidth for GPGPU at 30gb/sec which significantly improves our ability for the CPU to efficiently read data generated by the GPU. Hopefully with some of those more specific points people will understand where we have reduced bottlenecks in the system. I'm sure this will get debated endlessly but at least you can see I'm backing up my points. I still I believe that we get little credit for the fact that, as a SW company, the people designing our system are some of the smartest graphics engineers around – they understand how to architect and balance a system for graphics performance. Each company has their strengths, and I feel that our strength is overlooked when evaluating both boxes. Given this continued belief of a significant gap, we're working with our most senior graphics and silicon engineers to get into more depth on this topic. They will be more credible then I am, and can talk in detail about some of the benchmarking we've done and how we balanced our system. Thanks again for letting my participate. Hope this gives people more background on my claims. At Microsoft, we have a position called a "Technical Fellow" These are engineers across disciplines at Microsoft that are basically at the highest stage of technical knowledge. There are very few across the company, so it's a rare and respected position. We are lucky to have a small handful working on Xbox. I've spent several hours over the last few weeks with the Technical Fellow working on our graphics engines. He was also one of the guys that worked most closely with the silicon team developing the actual architecture of our machine, and knows how and why it works better than anyone. So while I appreciate the technical acumen of folks on this board - you should know that every single thing I posted, I reviewed with him for accuracy. I wanted to make sure I was stating things factually, and accurately. So if you're saying you can't add bandwidth - you can. If you want to dispute that ESRAM has simultaneous read/write cycles - it does. I know this forum demands accuracy, which is why I fact checked my points with a guy who helped design the machine. This is the same guy, by the way, that jumps on a plane when developers want more detail and hands-on review of code and how to extract the maximum performance from our box. He has heard first-hand from developers exactly how our boxes compare, which has only proven our belief that they are nearly the same in real-world situations. If he wasn't coming back smiling, I certainly wouldn't be so bullish dismissing these claims. I'm going to take his word (we just spoke this AM, so his data is about as fresh as possible) versus statements by developers speaking anonymously, and also potentially from several months ago before we had stable drivers and development environments. Last post? Not even close. Sorry - still many more meme's yet to come. As was kindly suggested by someone in a PM, it's unlikely anything more I'm going to post on this topic will make it better. People can believe me and trust I'm passing on the right information, or believe I'm spreading FUD and lies. When I first started coming on, I said what I wanted to do was speak more directly and more honestly with the community, clarifying what we could because you guys have more detailed questions then we had been dealing with. Regarding the power, I've tried to explain areas that are misunderstood and provide insight from the actual engineers on the system. We are working with the technical folks to get more in-depth. As I said - they are more credible then I am, and can provide a lot more detail. Best I leave it to them. Next stop - launch itself. Only then, when the games release and developers will inevitably be asked to compare the systems, will we there be a satisfying answer. Until then, as I have been, I'll try and answer what I can. But I'm not going to add more on this topic. Oh, I'm sure I'm going to regret this. Let me ask on the AMA. I think the team wanted to do something different. The people I'm talking about will be getting out there to give details. I do want to point out, this original discussion started with me saying, "Games on both systems look great. Look at Forza, Rise, Dead Rising, etc. All next-gen, on par or better than anything out there. We believe this 50% number is overstated" Then people said, "that's subjective, we want proof" So I explain that we have people on the team who are very experienced optimizing tools and development for graphics (DirectX, etc.) because we are a SW company, and that we have balance in the system in other places that equalize the playing field. Then it's said that was all hokum, you're just spinning, we want math and more detail to prove what you're saying. So at THIS point - I go talk to someone. "Hey, you helped design our system. You're a sr. technical leader at Microsoft. You're sitting with 3rd party developers right now who are working on both systems. Can you give me some points to help explain why nobody is seeing this rumored 50% delta" Then I publish the points, so now I have GAF telling me a developer working on our system is wrong, and that I should just let the games speak for themselves. Which is where I started. And since my attempts to provide more direct lines of information aren't considered truthful, because I'm not the source.. then I agree we are back where we started. I will ask two questions of the detractors, honest questions. 1. What piece of information would you want that I could provide that would convince you there is not a huge delta in performance? 2. If it comes out after we launch that the difference between 3rd party games is maybe single-digit FPS between the two platforms, will I get an apology or concession? LOL. I actually joked the other day that I didn't want to get "Dyack'd" off the boards. I think reasonable people understand that it's impossible for me personally to know every detail about everything with the platform. I think I got my chops busted the other day for not knowing who People Can Fly was. I haven't been paying a ton of attention to 360 over the last year or so because I've been focusing on Xbox One. It's very frequent I have to ask questions of others and bring the answers back. I did the same thing here - went to an expert, got an answer, and brought it back. People don't like the answer, cool, and I have absolutely no problem with questioning my specific answers or calling them into debate. That's part of the deal on here. It's somewhat bothersome when people think you're out to just lie or fud or make it a personal thing. But again, there is no way I'd tackle this question unless I was confident from the people on the team that I'm right. Would have been a lot easier to dodge the question. And I have thick skin (literally, since I'm a big guy), so I can handle it. This, above all others, is a fair discussion. We have to prove out that value, I agree. I don't mind at all having that debate and I'm using the product a lot and believe in that value. But on the other point (about power) I don't want to acquiesce a feature if I don't have to. The $100 is real and it's our job to make it worth it. The power thing isn't true, hence why I bring it up. Basis is this: 1. Personally, I've seen both systems and games live at E3, Gamescom, and PAX. Played a little bit of PS4 games at PAX. There are great looking games on both systems. Ryse looks great, Forza is fantastic. I think Killzone looks awesome, and honestly have not been impressed with DriveClub (although it came a LONG way since E3). I really would like to see Infamous in person, but it hasn't been shown that I've seen. However, any difference between those games is subjective of course and subject to viewer bias, but looking at both systems it's hard to substantiate any claims around 40% - 50% 2. We're in the final stages of game and SW development now. We're working closely with 3rd parties as we approach launch. Reports we're hearing back from developers consistently are confirming that cross-plat games are running the same on both platforms. I believe there is a point back near E3 where developers would have said their games were running better on PS4. I think Marc Whitten made the point that we'd just completed some driver work about a month ago just before Gamescom. And look at the frame-rate improvements in DR3 between Gamescom and PAX. We're making huge strides in our SW stability, and again, we have customized and balanced the system to reduce bottlenecks and optimize performance, in ways that aren't seen in the published specs. As to the follow-up questions; I posted earlier I'm working with the engineers directly who I think (and you guys think) will be more credible than I am. I did say that I went to them for some supporting points which I posted here - so at this point it's probably best to let them speak on it. I'm not sure when, but more detail will show up. It's late, and it's clear I'm doing more harm then good at this point. So best to let this rest from my seat and get back to you guys with the most credible source. |
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