Draven

Ok.

Agreed. Good thing that's not what's happening.

Agreed. Good thing that's not what's happening. People aren't getting in trouble for hugging a co-worker who's also a friend when they lost a parent. If it has happened, please post a link.

Agreed. Good thing that's not what's happening.

Now we're starting to get into some good stuff. How do you know what's what she "wanted"? A huge part of the problem is men assuming that women want something they don't. Or men not understanding that a women wearing a low-cut top and "shoving them in my face" doesn't automatically mean she wants you to say something.

"I'm sorry Carol but I don't appreciate that term. I'd rather you not use it around me." Unless you don't care. And if you don't, then what's the problem? I say things around the co-workers I've been with for 10 years that I don't say around people in other departments I only see a couple of times a year.

You should have complained. And if they fired you for complaining, you'd probably have a shot at a good lawsuit.

Agreed. What people are being punished for are not things that are "respectful and non threatening". Where is the evidence of this?

Good. Then you understand a lot of what the #MeToo movement is complaining about.

Again, please post evidence of such. If you tell a female co-worker that they look nice today and get fired for it, you have a hell of a case against your employer. If your co-worker gets a boob job and you think she's shoving them in your face and you say "Nice tits, Carol", you probably will get in trouble. Because guess what, you didn't have to say that, no matter what you think she really wants.

dhmac

The only #MeToo and #TimesUp supporters I have any respect for are the ones that also support the #120db movement ( http://www.120db.info/en/ ). But the ones who don't also support the #120db movement just tells me that they don't really care about preventing women from actually being sexually assaulted and most likely they instead just support some sort of radical agenda.

Giantrobo

Why woudn't they fall under Metoo and TimesUp? Or are you and 120db supporters only caring because the Perps are Immigrants? I'm confused...

fujishig

What the what now? The #120db movement? Why not denounce all violence against women, instead of just from the migrant population?

You're trolling, right?

Draven

Oh that's all right. They don't need your respect.

Ash Ketchum

I don't often agree with you in film tastes or politics, Draven, but--damn!--do you make sense on this issue.

Norm de Plume

I do believe that to be the case.

Draven

Thank you

dex14

Careful where you aim that smile. Someone may get the wrong idea.

Dan

Draven. I love you man.

It's always about those damned immigrants, isn't it? Hmm...

B5Erik

[QUOTE=Draven;13346614]
Garrison Keillor says, "Hi."


I didn't say that she wanted me to say something, just that she wanted me to notice. She had NEVER gotten that close to me before. Ever. (I was sitting in my chair, she was standing and she came right up to my face with her tits.) She had NEVER worn a top like that before. Ever. And one of my friends sitting in the next desk - another woman - was both busting up inside and getting a little angry. We've talked about it many times since then, and she knows EXACTLY what Ms DD was doing. She knew that woman. She knew that she was showing off what she spent thousands of dollars on. And she thought that Ms DD was WAY out of line, both in the way she was dressed and in the way she literally shoved her boobs in my face. (She also thought it was rather mean of Ms DD to do that - and she lost all respect for Ms DD because of that.)

Hey, dress inappropriately for work, behave inappropriately - and if a man comments HE's in the wrong!


But, wait? If I say the exact same thing around a female co-worker that I know a bit, but not super well I guarantee you I will get fired. It seems like you think it's OK that she did it since you say things and get away with it.

And I wasn't going to complain about it. It never even crossed my mind. What's the point? I just thought less of her for being openly slutty at work. But, again, if a guy talks like that around women he's fired the next day. Guaranteed.

Guys don't complain. We just suck it up and move on. And, frankly, I wasn't offended enough to complain - but I knew it was WAY improper and inappropriate (not to mention unprofessional) for work.


First off, I wasn't about to comment on her tits at work. Second, it is most definitely in our code of conduct that complimenting people on anything non-work related is verboten. People don't get fired for that because they don't do it! They're too scared! It used to be you could give a simple compliment like, "You look nice today," but now people don't feel safe doing that.

Rules had to be put in place to prevent people in management from abusing their power to coerce women to have sex with them. Rules had to be put in place to stop extreme behavior (openly sexual comments or sexual touching making for an uncomfortable - if not outright hostile - work environment). But the trend is taking those things they're forbidding farther and farther. And if you can't see that it's probably because you don't work in an environment like that, or you just don't want to see it or believe it.

I guess what sets me off is that the whole metoo thing has taken something good, something necessary (exposing real harassers and people guilty of sexual assault so those things stop happening in the workplace) and expanded it to covering things like Garrison Keillor. There is unnecessary collateral damage. That's not OK.

Draven

I wouldn’t hang my hat on Garrison Keillor

You don’t get 12 pages of incidents, complete with email excerpts and requests for sexual contact for “nothing”. And you don’t fire someone that high profile without ironclad proof.

I’m not going to go through the rest of your comments (including another round of “she wanted me to notice her new boobs” - yes, no matter what she wears you are wrong to comment) because your Garrison example is really the larger point. You claim you could get fired for basically saying a woman looks nice today. But it takes 12 pages of examples and proof for Garrison to lose his job. That’s a HELL of a lot more than telling Carol you like her new shoes.

Giantrobo

Oh come on.

You know you wanted it...why were you in the same room with her if you didn't want something to sexual to happen?...You could have just left immediately..Why did you wait so long in this thread to mention it?..was she trying to buy NBC?..Girls proud of their new big tits will be Girls proud of their new big tits so just get over it...

Groucho

I've been in several offices over the years where HR updates the sexual harassment policies and gives everybody a training on what's new. It's always common sense stuff, but there's always at least one guy who complains "This means I can't even say hello to women any more!"

Coincidentally, the complainers are always the same guys that are known as the "creepy ones" by all the women in the office.

d2cheer

I am starting to get that feeling here...

Giantrobo

Yeah their sadness and distress over not being able to talk and treat women any ole way they want too stinks of entitlement.

B5Erik

You missed my point. Or I wasn't very clear.

I was concerned that someone might think I did something wrong in that case, so I made it a point to look around me and not at her as much as possible, and I barely said a word because I didn't want to say anything that could be remotely misinterpreted as inappropriate.

That's why I felt so uncomfortable.

slop101

What's more, the creepy ones have no idea that they're creepy.

Giantrobo

My point was that the words i used in that post were typical of what women are told to minimize their feelings in similar situations when they are made to feel uncomfortable. In fact, some of what I said was used on Cosby Accusers.

How did it feel to have your feelings dismissed on the matter of Boobs placed in an "inappropriate manner" in your face at work making you feel uncomfortable?

Draven

Good job not staring at her chest or commenting on it, I guess?

Now you know how women feel all the time.

B5Erik

Unless you've had that happen you have no idea how difficult it is to ignore two nearly uncovered breasts that are literally shoved 12 - 18 inches from your face.

No, because women don't have to worry about getting in trouble if they say the wrong thing or look the wrong way when someone else is doing something inappropriate.

And guys almost never file complaints, for a couple reasons. One, you look like a complete wuss, and two, most of us can deal with it. It may not be comfortable in a work setting (because if the guy makes a comment in response he's the one who would get in trouble), but most guys can deal with it.

dex14

Will you two just get it out of the way and sexually assault each other already.

B5Erik

I'm not feeling real comfortable with that comment. This kind of feels like a hostile posting environment.

TomOpus

That's what SHE said.

Giantrobo

you kinda sound like a victim. Like she did it on purpose to tempt you.

NOT TRUE AT ALL. Now, it's true chances are a Man could be less likely to complain or even be offended by a woman being cheeky or inappropriate. But if he was, he could complain and probably get results. Companies know they can lose $$$

As I pointed out...people don't even think that woman or gays can be harassers. But they most certainly CAN. Again, companies aren't playing with this shit anymore because it can cost them $$$$$