Blu-ray Sales Figures Discussion
06-14-08 | 10:09 PM
#651
Originally Posted by Mister Peepers
But I've read from people on this forum that Blu-ray is going to pretty much have taken over by this winter. Since that's the case, doesn't that mean that sales aren't low?
Am I just misinformed about what's going on?
Am I just misinformed about what's going on?
The only way things could APPEAR as if Blu-ray is taking over, is having certain Blu-ray stores removing significant DVD stock from their shelves, and spacing it out with Blu-ray. I have heard a few rumors of this kind of marketing to be implemented by the end of the year if Blu-ray sales don't pick up. This would be seriously wrong. Maybe in the long term, this might be an idea, but it is lying to the public, no matter how you cut it.
So, those who shop a lot in stores, take notice on any dwindling DVD shelf space.
06-14-08 | 10:14 PM
#652
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally Posted by RoboDad
Who knows? The snide jabs you keep making at everyone who disagrees with you make it difficult to tell.
I don't have that many blu-rays, under 25, but I'm worried about the format turning into a laserdisc equivalent or god forbid a UMD format. With the dramatic decrease in blu-ray players and the increase of consumers purchasing upconverting dvd players, it really worries me where the format's going.
The studios should be putting out some really nice blu-ray sets, like a LOTR collection with theatrical and extended options and all the previous features, with maybe some new ones put in. That's the sort of stuff that would get people like me into the format.
Right now it's just the same movies being put out on blu-ray and dvd. What's the motivator to get people to spend over $300 on a blu-ray player when they can get the movie cheaper for a player they already own?
Not only are the movies cheaper but many times the blu-ray lacks any of the special features that are apart of the standard dvd. Spider-Man 1 & 2 and Robocop are a few that I own where I'm keeping the standard dvd around because the blu-ray, with it's increased disc space for all those non-existent special features, doesn't have any of them.
What's the logic in trying to get people to switch to a more expensive format when you don't make the newer product have the same features along with better video and audio?
06-14-08 | 10:33 PM
#653
Suspended
Originally Posted by Mister Peepers
The studios should be putting out some really nice blu-ray sets, like a LOTR collection with theatrical and extended options and all the previous features, with maybe some new ones put in. That's the sort of stuff that would get people like me into the format.
06-14-08 | 11:04 PM
#654
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Just like DVD, very few 'big guns' will come out right when a format launches. Why releases LOTR now to 5 Million BD owners when in 3 years it may be 20-30 million BD owners? Hell, it took how long to get Star Wars on DVD and it was a proven format.
Waiting 3 years to release a big set like LOTR is risky because by then the format may have turned into UMD since there wasn't any special products to push the players. If they do it now and have promotions with the player, lots of people will get the set and players and now your getting the established base up instead of hoping it'll be large years later when you put out the big guns.
What were any of the big guns that came out on blu-ray?
The only one I can think of would be the Spider-Man trilogy but that lacked special features. Then there was the Die Hard set but that only had the theatrical release of Die Hard 4. There was the Harry Potter set but there wasn't any point in getting that since there will be a new one with each movie, so I'm just waiting for the one at the end.
Those are what I would consider the big guns and I realize others probably think differently. What's going to motivate people to go with a new format if there isn't any real big deal to get them to switch over?
If it's just a single title that comes out on both formats, most people are going to go with the standard version since there isn't a real good reason to spend over $300 for the player for that one movie. The exception to this is Uncle Sam. Everyone is going to buy a player for that movie. Format war over.
06-14-08 | 11:14 PM
#655
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I've been away from a computer for awhile because but I will just drop my $.02...Percentages don't tell you anything beyond how one blu ray title is doing relative to another...just release the damn figures.
The only percentage that may be worthy of tracking is percentage of overall sales (Blu Ray v. DVD) but since they only track the Top 20 titles, even that percentage is slanted to favor Blu Ray.
The trade pubs publishing these percentages have the figures in hand (they must in order to calculate percentages) but releasing them would just continually embarass their main advertisers.
I'm sure Rambo actually did sell 2 MM units all over the globe from Lionsgate perspective, and the figure may be just what distributors globally ordered or what not. Honestly I have no idea how the distributors order their stocks from Lionsgate, so maybe somebody with some knowledge could tell us. the 2 million number may be technically correct, but it doesn't reflect what has actually sold to consumers, which is the important number if you are interested from a consumer standpoint. Furthermore, its quite possible that some of those 2 million "sold" Rambos may return to Lionsgate in the form of returns from distributors, etc. I'm not an expert on this, but I know a few DVD Talkers work for online media companies so perhaps they have an idea on how that works
The only percentage that may be worthy of tracking is percentage of overall sales (Blu Ray v. DVD) but since they only track the Top 20 titles, even that percentage is slanted to favor Blu Ray.
The trade pubs publishing these percentages have the figures in hand (they must in order to calculate percentages) but releasing them would just continually embarass their main advertisers.
I'm sure Rambo actually did sell 2 MM units all over the globe from Lionsgate perspective, and the figure may be just what distributors globally ordered or what not. Honestly I have no idea how the distributors order their stocks from Lionsgate, so maybe somebody with some knowledge could tell us. the 2 million number may be technically correct, but it doesn't reflect what has actually sold to consumers, which is the important number if you are interested from a consumer standpoint. Furthermore, its quite possible that some of those 2 million "sold" Rambos may return to Lionsgate in the form of returns from distributors, etc. I'm not an expert on this, but I know a few DVD Talkers work for online media companies so perhaps they have an idea on how that works
06-15-08 | 01:17 AM
#656
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From: Blu-ray.com
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Well, think about it.
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Considering how many DVD titles are already in print, do you really think Blu-ray titles could be produced to match the selection of DVD titles already out there.
http://www.insideindianabusiness.com...m.asp?ID=29841
Press Release
TOKYO (June 13, 2008) - Indiana Secretary of Commerce Nate Feltman met with senior Sony Corporation executives here Thursday to ink a deal with the technology giant to expand its Blu-ray Disc manufacturing operations in Indiana.
The announcement, made during the state's five-day Japanese trade mission, is expected to create up to 85 new jobs in the western Indiana city of Terre Haute as the company invests more than $113 million to expand its one million plus square-foot manufacturing operations.
"Sony's decision to expand its operations in Indiana is more hard evidence that our international roadwork is a good investment and is a solid step toward creating more jobs for Hoosiers," said Feltman.
Sony DADC, which currently employs approximately 1,180 associates at its U.S. manufacturing and distribution center in Terre Haute, will hire professional staff, engineers, technicians and operators in connection with the expansion plans. The facility is Sony DADC's only Blu-ray Disc manufacturing facility in the United States and currently produces 425,000 Blu-ray Discs per day in addition to compact discs, DVDs and UMDs. Blu-ray Discs are high-definition, high-capacity optical media discs.
"The rapid adoption of the new Blu-ray Disc format by consumers allows us to quickly expand Blu-ray Disc capacity in the United States. Based on the past experience with manufacturing in Terre Haute, the selection of this facility for the expansion was logical. We are thrilled with the support of the State of Indiana," said Dieter Daum, Executive Chairman of Sony DADC Global.
As part of the multi-million dollar project, the company will expand its Blu-ray Disc mastering and replication operations at the Terre Haute, Indiana facility and expand its packaging and distribution center to handle the increased production volume, Daum said.
Since Blu-ray Disc manufacturing began in Terre Haute in May 2006, the company has produced more than 100 million Blu-ray Discs in its manufacturing facilities in Indiana, Austria and Japan. By October, the three facilities combined will have more than doubled its Blu-ray Disc manufacturing capacity of 21 million discs per month to 47 million discs per month.
The Indiana Economic Development Corporation offered Sony DADC up to $975,000 in performance-based tax credits and up to $655,000 in training grants based on the company's investment and job creation.
About Sony DADC
Sony DADC, a total supply chain provider, has twenty-three optical media, distribution and digital facilities located globally. Although widely known for its quality disc production and distribution services, Sony DADC also develops and delivers dynamic technologies that not only protect disc content, but transforms discs into powerful marketing tools by adding secure links to bonus web-site content or prize incentives. Sony DADC operates within the Sony Corporation of America corporate group. For more information, visit www.sonydadc.com or call 1.800.358.7316.
TOKYO (June 13, 2008) - Indiana Secretary of Commerce Nate Feltman met with senior Sony Corporation executives here Thursday to ink a deal with the technology giant to expand its Blu-ray Disc manufacturing operations in Indiana.
The announcement, made during the state's five-day Japanese trade mission, is expected to create up to 85 new jobs in the western Indiana city of Terre Haute as the company invests more than $113 million to expand its one million plus square-foot manufacturing operations.
"Sony's decision to expand its operations in Indiana is more hard evidence that our international roadwork is a good investment and is a solid step toward creating more jobs for Hoosiers," said Feltman.
Sony DADC, which currently employs approximately 1,180 associates at its U.S. manufacturing and distribution center in Terre Haute, will hire professional staff, engineers, technicians and operators in connection with the expansion plans. The facility is Sony DADC's only Blu-ray Disc manufacturing facility in the United States and currently produces 425,000 Blu-ray Discs per day in addition to compact discs, DVDs and UMDs. Blu-ray Discs are high-definition, high-capacity optical media discs.
"The rapid adoption of the new Blu-ray Disc format by consumers allows us to quickly expand Blu-ray Disc capacity in the United States. Based on the past experience with manufacturing in Terre Haute, the selection of this facility for the expansion was logical. We are thrilled with the support of the State of Indiana," said Dieter Daum, Executive Chairman of Sony DADC Global.
As part of the multi-million dollar project, the company will expand its Blu-ray Disc mastering and replication operations at the Terre Haute, Indiana facility and expand its packaging and distribution center to handle the increased production volume, Daum said.
Since Blu-ray Disc manufacturing began in Terre Haute in May 2006, the company has produced more than 100 million Blu-ray Discs in its manufacturing facilities in Indiana, Austria and Japan. By October, the three facilities combined will have more than doubled its Blu-ray Disc manufacturing capacity of 21 million discs per month to 47 million discs per month.
The Indiana Economic Development Corporation offered Sony DADC up to $975,000 in performance-based tax credits and up to $655,000 in training grants based on the company's investment and job creation.
About Sony DADC
Sony DADC, a total supply chain provider, has twenty-three optical media, distribution and digital facilities located globally. Although widely known for its quality disc production and distribution services, Sony DADC also develops and delivers dynamic technologies that not only protect disc content, but transforms discs into powerful marketing tools by adding secure links to bonus web-site content or prize incentives. Sony DADC operates within the Sony Corporation of America corporate group. For more information, visit www.sonydadc.com or call 1.800.358.7316.
Last edited by pro-bassoonist; 06-15-08 at 01:30 AM.
06-15-08 | 02:19 AM
#657
And again, this tells me how many discs are being manufactured. Not titles. You could have 10,000 Blu-ray discs produced for one single Disney movie alone. Or more.
And just curious, but what are the figures on how many DVD discs have been manufactured per month, per year, since 1997.
But like I said, let's suppose they could do it. What about quality issues. Mastering HD titles is not as simple as DVD, because you have a higher amount of expectations the title is going to be significantly better--and justifiably so, and thus, the necessary requirement the consumer has confidence the title has undergone analysis for the best presentation possible. After all, it's Blu-ray.
I'm not saying Blu-ray can't catch up. It will. Nor sure when, but it will. But I'm concerned more with the haste to manufacture "discs" in lieu of quality releases. Because I really don't like double-dipping.
On a side note, are these Blu-ray discs being manufactured exclusively studio movies or are they also blank Blu-ray discs being sold worldwide.
And just curious, but what are the figures on how many DVD discs have been manufactured per month, per year, since 1997.
But like I said, let's suppose they could do it. What about quality issues. Mastering HD titles is not as simple as DVD, because you have a higher amount of expectations the title is going to be significantly better--and justifiably so, and thus, the necessary requirement the consumer has confidence the title has undergone analysis for the best presentation possible. After all, it's Blu-ray.
I'm not saying Blu-ray can't catch up. It will. Nor sure when, but it will. But I'm concerned more with the haste to manufacture "discs" in lieu of quality releases. Because I really don't like double-dipping.
On a side note, are these Blu-ray discs being manufactured exclusively studio movies or are they also blank Blu-ray discs being sold worldwide.
06-15-08 | 07:27 AM
#658
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
No, they really don't. For some select titles they will, but for most, they don't (at least not at a store level).
Yes. Again, DVD is everywhere. There is no convincing needed. Blu-ray, however, is still a risky format that not everyone wants to carry (especially now that HD DVD was killed pretty much overnight). If stores don't carry it, the format will never catch on. That's why they release % and not real numbers. Obviously each store that already carries Blu-ray knows exactly how many copies they sell, but other stores do not.
06-15-08 | 07:28 AM
#659
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
On a side note, are these Blu-ray discs being manufactured exclusively studio movies or are they also blank Blu-ray discs being sold worldwide.
06-15-08 | 11:33 AM
#660
Suspended
Originally Posted by Burnt Thru
the studios also only release sales totals for select dvd titles.
06-15-08 | 03:31 PM
#661
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Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Again, you're simply not getting it so I will stop communicating with you.
You want to see the numbers, yet you assume that they are horrible. To what end would you use that information (beyond providing justification for further bitterness and vitriol)? What positive use would the information provide for you?
06-15-08 | 06:08 PM
#662
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally Posted by RoboDad
You want to see the numbers, yet you assume that they are horrible.
The disagreement some people are having is some think the sales are good because there are no numbers to prove otherwise. Other people realize that the numbers aren't getting released for the same reason the player numbers aren't being released, low numbers.
The positive use for these numbers would be to have the truth. There's nothing wrong with that. Why make it a personal issue when lots of people of want to know. If sales are low, keeping numbers hidden aren't going to make a format succeed since it's not doing well in the first place.
06-15-08 | 06:48 PM
#663
DVD Talk Hero
So has anything changed, anyone been convinced of anything or otherwise figured out in the last 20 some odd pages?
06-15-08 | 08:10 PM
#664
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Originally Posted by Mister Peepers
The disagreement some people are having is some think the sales are good because there are no numbers to prove otherwise. Other people realize that the numbers aren't getting released for the same reason the player numbers aren't being released, low numbers.
Originally Posted by Mister Peepers
The positive use for these numbers would be to have the truth. There's nothing wrong with that. Why make it a personal issue when lots of people of want to know. If sales are low, keeping numbers hidden aren't going to make a format succeed since it's not doing well in the first place.
But maybe that's what you all really want. At least, that's the way you are all coming across in this thread.
06-15-08 | 09:25 PM
#665
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Originally Posted by RichC2
So has anything changed, anyone been convinced of anything or otherwise figured out in the last 20 some odd pages?
The one thing I've realized is just to enjoy the movies that are coming out and leave it at that. If Blu-ray is doomed to failure as some say, then so be it. I've got some great movies in the best picture and sound possible and couldn't be happier.
06-15-08 | 10:15 PM
#666
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally Posted by RoboDad
Hogwash. Stop playing this "we're enlightened and you're not" game. It's old, and completely untrue. You ASSUME the numbers are horrible, with no real proof. And everyone knows what happens when you assume.
Fine. Then how about we just call the BDA tomorrow morning and tell them to pack it in? IF the numbers are as bad as you and the other naysayers keep parroting, releasing them would have that net effect. Most people jump on "bad" news, whether it is justified or not. Shouting such news from the rooftops would only serve to guarantee that Blu-ray never has a chance to prove itself.
But maybe that's what you all really want. At least, that's the way you are all coming across in this thread.
Fine. Then how about we just call the BDA tomorrow morning and tell them to pack it in? IF the numbers are as bad as you and the other naysayers keep parroting, releasing them would have that net effect. Most people jump on "bad" news, whether it is justified or not. Shouting such news from the rooftops would only serve to guarantee that Blu-ray never has a chance to prove itself.
But maybe that's what you all really want. At least, that's the way you are all coming across in this thread.
Common sense says that if the numbers are good, they will use them to show how successful it is. If the numbers are poor they aren't going to go around bragging about them or they just won't release them like their doing now.
Sorry if it upsets you that there isn't any great stats to show that your beloved format hasn't taken over and your only defense is that if the numbers haven't been released then they can't be bad. I'm sorry it upsets you if anyone says anything bad about the format because then it'll fail.
If I wanted the format to fail, I wouldn't have invested in it but I'm not going to blind myself to bad news and only spout positive stuff to make myself feel better or think that that is the only thing that will keep the format alive. It's ignorant to not look at reality and instead just put fingers in the ears when anyone says anything bad.
06-15-08 | 10:18 PM
#667
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by tonymontana313
The one thing I've realized is just to enjoy the movies that are coming out and leave it at that.
It was cathartic.
06-15-08 | 10:29 PM
#668
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally Posted by bunkaroo
I decided to spend the day actually watching movies instead of fighting about them. I watched The Prestige and Jumper on BD, and Batman Begins on HD DVD (which I will never get some of the "soft" complaints about it).
It was cathartic.
It was cathartic.
I spent the day watching Salem's Lot, Crank, Andre The Butcher(with Ron Jeremy as the killer), Snakes on a Plane, Dirty Weekend and Beerfest. None in HD but they were at least upconverted on my PS3
06-15-08 | 11:29 PM
#669
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Originally Posted by Mister Peepers
I don't ASSUME the numbers are horrible with no real proof. If you look at the article I posted on the last page, it states that player sales are so poor that they won't release the numbers.
Common sense says that if the numbers are good, they will use them to show how successful it is. If the numbers are poor they aren't going to go around bragging about them or they just won't release them like their doing now.
Sorry if it upsets you that there isn't any great stats to show that your beloved format hasn't taken over and your only defense is that if the numbers haven't been released then they can't be bad. I'm sorry it upsets you if anyone says anything bad about the format because then it'll fail.
If I wanted the format to fail, I wouldn't have invested in it but I'm not going to blind myself to bad news and only spout positive stuff to make myself feel better or think that that is the only thing that will keep the format alive. It's ignorant to not look at reality and instead just put fingers in the ears when anyone says anything bad.
Common sense says that if the numbers are good, they will use them to show how successful it is. If the numbers are poor they aren't going to go around bragging about them or they just won't release them like their doing now.
Sorry if it upsets you that there isn't any great stats to show that your beloved format hasn't taken over and your only defense is that if the numbers haven't been released then they can't be bad. I'm sorry it upsets you if anyone says anything bad about the format because then it'll fail.
If I wanted the format to fail, I wouldn't have invested in it but I'm not going to blind myself to bad news and only spout positive stuff to make myself feel better or think that that is the only thing that will keep the format alive. It's ignorant to not look at reality and instead just put fingers in the ears when anyone says anything bad.
1. The link you quoted on the previous page was a blog, not an article. That means it was opinion, not journalistic reporting.
2. There is a vast range of product performance between abysmal and stellar. No one (let me repeat, no one) has been claiming that Blu-ray performance has been stellar so far. Stop claiming that we have. Common sense indicates that there could be many reasons why the numbers are being released as they are now, as several other people have already discussed at some length. I'll leave it to you to re-read those posts.
3. If you want to carry on an intelligent discussion, please stop making the snide comments. "My beloved format"? Get over yourself. My point was quite valid. IF the format were performing as horribly as you claim, it would be folly for the parties involved to not put the best spin they could on the numbers. To do otherwise would be to invite their own demise.
4. Please post links where I have "only spouted positive stuff" about Blu-ray. You'll have a hard time, because I haven't done that (but you already knew that before you posted your straw man). What I have done is respond to obviously biased and often deliberately misleading posts claiming gloom and doom for the format, when it is my opinion that such worries are extremely premature. Blu-ray can certainly fail. It can also succeed. At this point in time, it is too early to say which endgame is more likely. However, based on what we do know, it is not under performing to the extent that anyone here has claimed.
06-16-08 | 12:10 AM
#670
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From: Blu-ray.com
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
And again, this tells me how many discs are being manufactured. Not titles. You could have 10,000 Blu-ray discs produced for one single Disney movie alone. Or more.
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
And just curious, but what are the figures on how many DVD discs have been manufactured per month, per year, since 1997.
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
But like I said, let's suppose they could do it. What about quality issues. Mastering HD titles is not as simple as DVD, because you have a higher amount of expectations the title is going to be significantly better--and justifiably so, and thus, the necessary requirement the consumer has confidence the title has undergone analysis for the best presentation possible. After all, it's Blu-ray.
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
I'm not saying Blu-ray can't catch up. It will. Nor sure when, but it will. But I'm concerned more with the haste to manufacture "discs" in lieu of quality releases. Because I really don't like double-dipping.
Once Universal joins, as well as Criterion and few of the smaller players, the market will slowly begin to offer a bit of everything for everyone.
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
On a side note, are these Blu-ray discs being manufactured exclusively studio movies or are they also blank Blu-ray discs being sold worldwide.
Pro-B
06-16-08 | 07:52 AM
#671
DVD Talk Godfather
Originally Posted by Mister Peepers
Is Jumper any good story wise? I'm sure the effects look great in HD but going off the commercials the plot didn't look so great.
It's a rental, at best.
06-16-08 | 09:06 AM
#672
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally Posted by RoboDad
1. The link you quoted on the previous page was a blog, not an article. That means it was opinion, not journalistic reporting.
That's a pretty weak argument. Just because something is a blog doesn't mean it's opinion.
I'll say this about it: I would've loved it when I was 9, or younger. I saw it with my pre-teen brother and he even thought the story was a bit too childish.
It's a rental, at best.
It's a rental, at best.
06-16-08 | 09:49 AM
#673
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by Mister Peepers
Is Jumper any good story wise? I'm sure the effects look great in HD but going off the commercials the plot didn't look so great.
PQ was great though - wasn't as impressed with the sound.
06-17-08 | 08:53 AM
#674
From MaxPower1987's (Finance Insider) blu-ray.com Insider Thread:
Originally Posted by Mr. Cinema
Just curious. Why do we still not get actual units sold when the sales figures are released? Why are they still using the index model?
"Units sold are in the Neilsen reports that companies pay a massive subscription fee for, giving them away for free would not be a good business model."
If this answer isn't good enough, and I suspect for 3-4 of you, it won't be, feel free to register at blu-ray.com and ask a follow up question to Max.
Originally Posted by Mr. Cinema
Just curious. Why do we still not get actual units sold when the sales figures are released? Why are they still using the index model?
"Units sold are in the Neilsen reports that companies pay a massive subscription fee for, giving them away for free would not be a good business model."
If this answer isn't good enough, and I suspect for 3-4 of you, it won't be, feel free to register at blu-ray.com and ask a follow up question to Max.
06-17-08 | 10:04 AM
#675
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Here is some interesting figures from an otherwise boring puff-piece:
From:
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6570827.html
Some other figures from the article:
I guess I'm looking at the 2015 number and really wondering about it. 2015 will be 8 years from the introduction of Blu Ray. By that point in the DVD lifecycle, the succcessor to the DVD was already being thought up and planned. (with introduction 2-3 years later) So what does that say about Blu Ray? IMHO it seems that Blu Ray will only become the majority (and a relatively slight one) right before it fades for the next big thing. And that number is just a Disney projection, so I'm guessing its probably rosier than reality.
Thats just my opinion, so please don't go around screaming bloody murder.
With Disney’s Enchanted, a healthy 9.3% of its total $121.72 million in consumer sales came from Blu-ray copies, he said. By comparison, I Am Legend’s$140.35 million in revenue was 3.1% Blu-ray.
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6570827.html
Some other figures from the article:
Tom Adams, president of Adams Media Research, said that today, 80% of U.S. PlayStation 3 users are playing Blu-ray movies on their. [sic] That has improved from 53% in September.
By 2009, Blu-ray title sales will offset losses of maturing standard-definition DVD, Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment’s general manager North America Lori MacPherson said during a conference keynote. By 2015, Blu-ray will rank as the most popular way to enjoy movies at home, she predicted. At that time, global home entertainment consumer spending will reach $60 billion, with Blu-ray encompassing 56% of sales; standard DVD, 38%; and digitally delivered content, 6%, according to Disney estimates.
Thats just my opinion, so please don't go around screaming bloody murder.
Last edited by chanster; 06-17-08 at 10:09 AM.