Blu-ray Sales Figures Discussion
06-13-08 | 07:10 PM
#626
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Originally Posted by Burnt Thru
why give you something for free that they charge others for? the information is costly to compile. my grandad always used to say, "you don't get something for nothing".
only in your warped view of reality has the data been shown to be of no use. back in the real world it clearly has some use, or you wouldn't be continuously posting in this thread.
leaving aside your mischaracterisation of my position in this subject, this is a ridiculous little statement. the sales charts show only what they claim to show, and it is up to anyone reading to determine of what value that information is. if you consider them to be misleading then that must be because you think they are claiming to show something other than they are. i've seen no claim that these are sales figures, so you are clearly wrong. one of the more interesting aspects of this format war and it's aftermath is for a select group of posters to be continuously wrong on so many counts, and yet still think their opinions should hold some weight.
only in your warped view of reality has the data been shown to be of no use. back in the real world it clearly has some use, or you wouldn't be continuously posting in this thread.
leaving aside your mischaracterisation of my position in this subject, this is a ridiculous little statement. the sales charts show only what they claim to show, and it is up to anyone reading to determine of what value that information is. if you consider them to be misleading then that must be because you think they are claiming to show something other than they are. i've seen no claim that these are sales figures, so you are clearly wrong. one of the more interesting aspects of this format war and it's aftermath is for a select group of posters to be continuously wrong on so many counts, and yet still think their opinions should hold some weight.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion & should be shown respect, but when one has been discredited so many times, I honestly have a hard time taking their take seriously.
Last edited by Hammer99; 06-13-08 at 07:20 PM.
06-13-08 | 08:08 PM
#627
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally Posted by Burnt Thru
this is not the way statistical analysis is conducted in any reputable company. the rules of the game must be set before the players take to the field (or the data is accumulated), and the accuracy behind any information is not determined by it's similarity to other information but on the basis of it's method of gathering.
2. In a perfect world, the rules of the game are set. Unfortunately, unless there is a set standard, companies can distribute the data as they see fit.
Since that isn't the case, the only thing we can do is use what information we can acquire. At this point, blu-ray sales data isn't very good to make accurate conclusions.
is not determined by it's similarity to other information but on the basis of it's method of gathering.
Last edited by The Man with the Golden Doujinshi; 06-13-08 at 08:22 PM.
06-13-08 | 08:12 PM
#628
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally Posted by Jim
Is that right? Isn't that the info they charge their customers lots of money for?
06-13-08 | 11:15 PM
#629
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From: In the Universe.
Many of you do not realize the logistics of getting accurate numbers in on a weekly basis. That's why most of the focus is given on big name retailers like the Walmarts, Best Buys, etc. It's not easy getting super accurate numbers because of the sheer number of places selling DVDs.
Percentages are used because BD is not sold as ubiquitously as DVD is. So the only way to give it a fair comparison is to show them in percentages.
You can't very well show National Treasure selling 5M units when it's BD counterpart is selling 250K. It simply will not work. DVD is sold in literally tens of thousands of places while BD is probably sold in a couple thousand. Percentages will give us the best look at what's happening with adoption of the format like it or not. For all the people who argue against percentages, think about what I said above and it'll be clearer why it's done.
Although I suspect the real reason is hoping to see the lower numbers and then perpetuate the doom and gloom of BD like what's being done here on a daily basis.
Percentages are used because BD is not sold as ubiquitously as DVD is. So the only way to give it a fair comparison is to show them in percentages.
You can't very well show National Treasure selling 5M units when it's BD counterpart is selling 250K. It simply will not work. DVD is sold in literally tens of thousands of places while BD is probably sold in a couple thousand. Percentages will give us the best look at what's happening with adoption of the format like it or not. For all the people who argue against percentages, think about what I said above and it'll be clearer why it's done.
Although I suspect the real reason is hoping to see the lower numbers and then perpetuate the doom and gloom of BD like what's being done here on a daily basis.
06-14-08 | 01:50 AM
#631
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From: Blu-ray.com
Originally Posted by Mister Peepers
One doesn't ignore/replace one piece of data when another is brought in. When one does research, they don't throw away all previous data when a new set is brought in. They include it and look at it all.
It does not disprove the percentages provided by the Nielsen chart nor does it provide accurate sales numbers. Which happens to be the reason why it was introduced into this discussion to begin with.
Originally Posted by Mister Peepers
Some may get used less if it's apparent it's not that accurate. How would one get to that point? They do it by having more overall data to look at instead of less.
Originally Posted by Mister Peepers
If one doesn't care about sources, then it's easier to get very little in terms of sources and data and then proclaim it as accurate. Unfortunately, if more data is brought in, a more accurate assessment can be made and a more realistic number can be ascertained.
Originally Posted by Mister Peepers
Currently Nielsen wants to post raw numbers, but the BDA won't let them. This is the practice currently in place which you say doesn't work yet you also say raw numbers would do no good.
Pro-Bassoonist
Plain and simple: Nielsen do not monitor ALL retailers, which would mean that Nielsen would be guesstimating at best if they came up with sales figures touted as hard numbers, they would be incomplete. This was one of the main reasons why people on this board were opposing their percentage charts during the war. I find it hard to believe that the same method is now referred to as the system to use, if raw numbers are included, in light of all the criticism unleashed towards the percentage charts used currently.
Plain and simple: Nielsen do not monitor ALL retailers, which would mean that Nielsen would be guesstimating at best if they came up with sales figures touted as hard numbers, they would be incomplete. This was one of the main reasons why people on this board were opposing their percentage charts during the war. I find it hard to believe that the same method is now referred to as the system to use, if raw numbers are included, in light of all the criticism unleashed towards the percentage charts used currently.
Originally Posted by Mister Peepers
If we had more raw numbers, we could also use the percentages to an even greater degree to come up with a more accurate number. This is why when one does a research paper in school, they make you use multiple sources and not just one. Sure you could use one but that doesn't mean the data is correct. That's why you use more.
Originally Posted by Mister Peepers
I also do realize the futility in talking with someone that thinks less data provides more accurate results. I don't expect anything to really change.
Pro-B
Last edited by pro-bassoonist; 06-14-08 at 01:55 AM.
06-14-08 | 05:36 AM
#632
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This discussion is ridiculous. Truly a line in the sand kind of thing. You really, REALLY have to have navy blu blinders on to defend this practice.
Yup. And there are four or five people here whose opinions have been shown to be completely devoid of objectivity.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion & should be shown respect, but when one has been discredited so many times, I honestly have a hard time taking their take seriously.
06-14-08 | 12:30 PM
#633
Suspended
Originally Posted by jiggawhat
Many of you do not realize the logistics of getting accurate numbers in on a weekly basis. That's why most of the focus is given on big name retailers like the Walmarts, Best Buys, etc. It's not easy getting super accurate numbers because of the sheer number of places selling DVDs.
Percentages are used because BD is not sold as ubiquitously as DVD is. So the only way to give it a fair comparison is to show them in percentages.
You can't very well show National Treasure selling 5M units when it's BD counterpart is selling 250K. It simply will not work. DVD is sold in literally tens of thousands of places while BD is probably sold in a couple thousand. Percentages will give us the best look at what's happening with adoption of the format like it or not. For all the people who argue against percentages, think about what I said above and it'll be clearer why it's done.
Although I suspect the real reason is hoping to see the lower numbers and then perpetuate the doom and gloom of BD like what's being done here on a daily basis.
Percentages are used because BD is not sold as ubiquitously as DVD is. So the only way to give it a fair comparison is to show them in percentages.
You can't very well show National Treasure selling 5M units when it's BD counterpart is selling 250K. It simply will not work. DVD is sold in literally tens of thousands of places while BD is probably sold in a couple thousand. Percentages will give us the best look at what's happening with adoption of the format like it or not. For all the people who argue against percentages, think about what I said above and it'll be clearer why it's done.
Although I suspect the real reason is hoping to see the lower numbers and then perpetuate the doom and gloom of BD like what's being done here on a daily basis.
06-14-08 | 12:35 PM
#634
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
So what you're saying is Blu-ray is not selling as well as "others" would like us to think, right? If it did, they wouldn't be using silly % points,?
06-14-08 | 12:44 PM
#635
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Originally Posted by Burnt Thru
do "they" release a full spread of dvd sales totals?
06-14-08 | 12:50 PM
#636
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Don't need to. DVD is a proven format with 10+ years of sales with players in multiple devices (TV, DVD, Laptop, Cars etc.). Its a success and will not be going away any time soon. The majority of people already own at least 1 player if not several in their homes. Blu-ray is not proven, and by providing a % it allows the BDA to say how wonderful Blu-ray is without the public knowing that the #10 movie of the week sold 4k copies. Its creative lying.
Which #10 movie sold 4K copies recently? Just want to make sure this isn't also creative lying.
06-14-08 | 12:59 PM
#637
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Originally Posted by bunkaroo
Which #10 movie sold 4K copies recently? Just want to make sure this isn't also creative lying.
06-14-08 | 01:21 PM
#638
Originally Posted by jiggawhat
Percentages are used because BD is not sold as ubiquitously as DVD is. So the only way to give it a fair comparison is to show them in percentages.
Of course if we're going for accurate comparisons of metaphorical penis sizes for Blu-ray to DVD, I'd say Blu-ray has a .009" penis compared to a 9" penis of DVD.
Looking at it that way, is it any surprise we have Blu-ray numbers being expressed as percentages. If you have a micro-sized penis compared to your competitor...you refrain from giving penis size and use ratios and other voodoo logic.
06-14-08 | 02:39 PM
#639
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally Posted by Qui Gon Jim
This discussion is ridiculous.
Uh oh, I said "think". Forgot I was supposed to say "know" and back it up with a blu-ray company quote.
06-14-08 | 04:52 PM
#641
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From: In the Universe.
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
This explanation reminds me of a guy who has a 1" penis and another who has a 9" penis and the 1" penis man is arguing continuously about how women flock to him over a guy with a 9-incher.
Of course if we're going for accurate comparisons of metaphorical penis sizes for Blu-ray to DVD, I'd say Blu-ray has a .009" penis compared to a 9" penis of DVD.
Looking at it that way, is it any surprise we have Blu-ray numbers being expressed as percentages. If you have a micro-sized penis compared to your competitor...you refrain from giving penis size and use ratios and other voodoo logic.
Of course if we're going for accurate comparisons of metaphorical penis sizes for Blu-ray to DVD, I'd say Blu-ray has a .009" penis compared to a 9" penis of DVD.
Looking at it that way, is it any surprise we have Blu-ray numbers being expressed as percentages. If you have a micro-sized penis compared to your competitor...you refrain from giving penis size and use ratios and other voodoo logic.
You just summed up everything anyone needs to know about you.
06-14-08 | 04:52 PM
#642
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From: In the Universe.
Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
So what you're saying is Blu-ray is not selling as well as "others" would like us to think, right? If it did, they wouldn't be using silly % points,?
06-14-08 | 06:16 PM
#643
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Don't need to. DVD is a proven format with 10+ years of sales with players in multiple devices (TV, DVD, Laptop, Cars etc.). Its a success and will not be going away any time soon. The majority of people already own at least 1 player if not several in their homes. Blu-ray is not proven, and by providing a % it allows the BDA to say how wonderful Blu-ray is without the public knowing that the #10 movie of the week sold 4k copies. Its creative lying.
06-14-08 | 06:30 PM
#644
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Here's an article about sales figures
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/0...ref=technology
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/0...ref=technology
Hot on the heels of last week’s report from ABI Research noting that many consumers may not see the picture quality difference between Blu-ray and standard DVDs comes the latest Blu-ray sales figures from NPD Group. And they’re not pretty.
According to NPD, sales of Blu-ray standalone players plummeted 40 percent from January to February, then rose a scant 2 percent from February to March. The general consensus was that once Toshiba dropped its support for the HD DVD format early this year, sales would increase.
In fact, sales of Blu-ray standalone players remain so low that NPD has not yet released actual numbers, for fear that it would be easy to identify individual retailers. The research group will start to give actual figures later this year, said Ross Rubin, director of industry analysis at NPD.
The end of the format wars clearly did little to boost Blu-ray’s prospects. Like others, Mr. Rubin said the much cheaper upconverting standard DVD players are winning consumers’ hearts and wallets.
The price of upconverting players is hovering around $70. And this week, Amazon is giving them away for free when consumers purchase certain Samsung TVs. The result: a 5 percent uptick in upconverting DVD player sales in the first quarter of 2008, compared to same quarter a year ago, and a 39 percent decline in players that don’t have that feature.
With Blu-ray players still costing more than $300 — and a number of players on the market still lacking some Blu-ray features like Internet connectivity — NPD now figures that Blu-ray’s future won’t be clear until this Christmas, when prices should drop to the $200 range.
ABI Research is even less optimistic. In a report released yesterday, the research firm figures it could take until October 2009 until Blu-ray gains a foothold in the market.
According to NPD, sales of Blu-ray standalone players plummeted 40 percent from January to February, then rose a scant 2 percent from February to March. The general consensus was that once Toshiba dropped its support for the HD DVD format early this year, sales would increase.
In fact, sales of Blu-ray standalone players remain so low that NPD has not yet released actual numbers, for fear that it would be easy to identify individual retailers. The research group will start to give actual figures later this year, said Ross Rubin, director of industry analysis at NPD.
The end of the format wars clearly did little to boost Blu-ray’s prospects. Like others, Mr. Rubin said the much cheaper upconverting standard DVD players are winning consumers’ hearts and wallets.
The price of upconverting players is hovering around $70. And this week, Amazon is giving them away for free when consumers purchase certain Samsung TVs. The result: a 5 percent uptick in upconverting DVD player sales in the first quarter of 2008, compared to same quarter a year ago, and a 39 percent decline in players that don’t have that feature.
With Blu-ray players still costing more than $300 — and a number of players on the market still lacking some Blu-ray features like Internet connectivity — NPD now figures that Blu-ray’s future won’t be clear until this Christmas, when prices should drop to the $200 range.
ABI Research is even less optimistic. In a report released yesterday, the research firm figures it could take until October 2009 until Blu-ray gains a foothold in the market.
06-14-08 | 08:13 PM
#645
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Originally Posted by Burnt Thru
studios don't provide sales information for dvds. studios don't provide sales information for bds. somehow one action is an indication of strength while the other similar action is an indication of weekness. this reminds me of the logic of believing the stories tsd came up with...
But why would the studios need to give out the Top 20 DVD sales figures? No one really cares about them. Nearly every retailer in America carries DVDs so there is no convincing to be done. However Rite-Aid (or insert some other store) may want to start carrying BDs, but if they got a look at the sales figures it may change their mind. Why carry BD when the #1 title one week sold 50k copies while the DVD sold 2 million?
Same thing can be said about BD stand alone players which is why we don't hear the numbers anymore. As much as certain websites would like to make you believe they are "flying off the shelves", that may only mean 5k sold a week compared to Upconverters which (IIRC) typically sells 7-10x more. I think the last time we heard about BD SA numbers was right before HD DVD died and Blu-ray sold slightly better. As soon as the firesales started and HD DVD players starting selling like crazy, it was hush hush.
Last edited by Gizmo; 06-14-08 at 08:16 PM.
06-14-08 | 08:19 PM
#646
Originally Posted by jiggawhat
You just summed up everything anyone needs to know about you.
I'm still going to purchase a Blu-ray player and Blu-ray discs, but I also don't wear horseblinds about how the stats are being delivered to the masses.
I can already see Blu-ray percentages being posted in all stores who sell Blu-ray, trying to show the consumer Blu-ray is taking a massive leap in acceptance. Hek, they might already be doing this now.
Last edited by DVD Polizei; 06-14-08 at 08:21 PM.
06-14-08 | 08:26 PM
#647
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Actually studios do give out sales figures for DVDs. That's how Grubert typically tries to turn the % in BDs into real numbers. If Rambo DVD sold 2.25 million, and the BD sold 7.5% of that...well, you know the rest from there.
But why would the studios need to give out the Top 20 DVD sales figures? No one really cares about them. Nearly every retailer in America carries DVDs so there is no convincing to be done. However Rite-Aid (or insert some other store) may want to start carrying BDs, but if they got a look at the sales figures it may change their mind. Why carry BD when the #1 title one week sold 50k copies while the DVD sold 2 million?
06-14-08 | 08:33 PM
#648
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Originally Posted by Burnt Thru
the studios also give out bd sales figures.
are you really trying to suggest the studios are trying to keep these figures from the retailers?! that's hilarious! the thought that retailers base their shop floor real estate decisions on numbers released to consumers is bizzare.
As for consumers, if they knew exactly how low sales were, they may not want to invest in a player and movies. Thats why the BDA and/or studios typically do not come out with numbers anymore.
06-14-08 | 09:20 PM
#649
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Yes. Again, DVD is everywhere. There is no convincing needed. Blu-ray, however, is still a risky format that not everyone wants to carry (especially now that HD DVD was killed pretty much overnight). If stores don't carry it, the format will never catch on. That's why they release % and not real numbers. Obviously each store that already carries Blu-ray knows exactly how many copies they sell, but other stores do not.
As for consumers, if they knew exactly how low sales were, they may not want to invest in a player and movies. Thats why the BDA and/or studios typically do not come out with numbers anymore.
As for consumers, if they knew exactly how low sales were, they may not want to invest in a player and movies. Thats why the BDA and/or studios typically do not come out with numbers anymore.
Am I just misinformed about what's going on?
06-14-08 | 09:35 PM
#650
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From: A far green country
Originally Posted by Mister Peepers
Am I just misinformed about what's going on?