Emulating MAME games on a 750 Mhz processor is different than emulating last gen's games on a current gen machine. Sony did it by attaching hardware that was backwards compatible with the PS1. MS should have have done this but I guess you learn from your mistakes.

But, I guess the question is, why should the emulation differ from one game to the next? It's the same hardware in everycase, correct? Anybody have any insight into the emulation process in this case?

Xhonzi

It's not the same hardware. Xbox & 360 are using 2 totally different video cards.

Games utilize different hardware features. Games that "exercise" the hardware more are going to be more difficult to support.

The xbox uses a Nvidia chipset, the 360 uses an ATI. Massively different in architecture. The PS3 may or may not face similar challenges with the Cell migration. The Revolution will be no sweat since Nintenso is sticking with ATI, the same as the GC.

exactly, I said emulation, because I was trying to refrain from saying the illegal ways people have been able to play games on their Xbox.

If it is emulation that is making previous Xbox games BC, my question is what makes each game different, because they are using the same hardware to emulate on, the 360 specs.

As Jeff said, different games use the X-box hardware differently. i.e. tax the processor more, push more polygons, use more memory, etc.

Thus some games will be harder than others to immulate, namely the more intensive ones.

Yeah, as it seems to be cleared up... I wasn't saying that the 360 and the xbox were the same hardware, but that all the xbox games used the same hardware. Viz-a-viz, the xbox.

Anyways, about the nVida/ATI differences... doesn't the xbox (or 360 for that matter) use something like a subset (or superset, perhaps) of Microsoft directX? If so, then I think that's not such a big deal.

But it seems that everyone seems to know a lot more on the subject than I, so I'll expect some clarification on that.

Xhonzi

Sure. :) It is a big deal because directX is only one facet of hardware interchange. There is code in each game that calls upon many chipset features that DirectX does not "control". I hope that makes sense, I tried to make it simple without bastardizing the correctness.

That was a relatively understandable explanation. To my technology-impaired brain though it would be easier if people just told me that it woudln't be BC because the leprechauns and magic elves that drive the first Xbox don't work well when Microsoft switched to pookas mounted on unicorns. At times i think going back to saying everything works because of magic would make my life a good deal less complex.

It's probably been said before, but some of the games on the list are really weird choices to be on the initial list. Maybe they were easier to code?

Maybe they came up with a basic emulation program that seemed to work with many games. They probably write the codes and then say, what if yourself fitness worked with this same code.

That would explain the list, and that would explain why the games that aren't included include some of the most graphically impressive. I would think Splinter Cell would be a lot harder to get working than Yourself Fitness.

Current-gen Xbox games to be "recompiled" for Xbox 360

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=8996

I think it was more or less, they developed the code for one big game it it just so happens that the code works on a bunch of lesser titles. From what I read around here anyway. B/C I thought they said not to worry, and just try out your games, some may work even if they aren't on the list.

That was from a while back though. Things could have changed since then.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/back...tibilityqa.htm

If you haven't read this, then you should. Someone just posted a link to it a few posts back and I thought it helped clear things up from an "official" source.

This paragraph, in particular, was excellent:
Xhonzi

Very hard, perhaps ultimately impossible to emulate some of the games that really push the Xbox (though the fact that H2 is working well is a good sign that, with effort, they will be able to get pretty much everything working eventually if they choose to do so). Your analogy to emulation on the Xbox is a bad one. While it is true that the Xbox can emulate older consoles such as NES very well, it does not have enough horsepower to satisfactorily emulate many SNES or N64 games. Rarely will a new generation console be powerful enough to perfectly emulate the immediately preceding generation completely in software. The PS2 basically included most of the Ps1 hardware to make it happen (as others pointed out). The 360 does not, nor is it feasible that it could have given the radical differences between it and the Xbox.

Do you need an internet set up to be backwards compatable or is it built into the system?

You will have to download a 5 MB file for each game you want to emulate. There are three ways to get this file. You can download it on Xbox Live directly to your 360 harddrive. Secondly, you can use your PC to download the file, burn it to a CD, and then transfer the file to your 360 harddrive. Lastly, if you can't do any of the above, you can order a CD with all the emulation files you want and have it mailed to you.

I think many people are forgetting they will be adding titles to their BC list continuously, there is absolutely no reason to complain about the lack of BC titles or even go off to trade in games not already listed. The fact that a title like Half-Life 2 is listed on the BC list should prove that MS should be able to make most, if not all, titles available for play on the X360.

I personally have over 40 titles not listed on this BC list, but will be keeping them as I am sure they will be added to this list in the months to come.

Months... years... When the Xbox 720 comes out?

Honestly, I have no doubt that the list will grow. I have no doubt that the games I want on the list will eventually be converted. I thought one of the purposes of this thread was to draw attention to the titles that are most wanted by the gaming community...

Also to let MS know that we (some of us) do care about BC and won't be happy if they decide to quit adding titles to the list.

Xhonzi

BTW: In that article that I mentioned above, it said that there was a way for us to tell MS what games we most anticipate. I think it said it was on www.xbox.com but I'll be darned if I can find my way around that site. Anybody find it?

that sucks.... i guess Star Wars Battlefront 2 wont work on the XBOX 360

Genesis was backwards compatible with Master System games (with add-on)

Curiously, these titles that were on the initial list are no longer there:

* Blinx® 2: Masters of Time & Space

* FIFA World Cup 2002

* Grabbed by the Ghoulies™

* Legends of Wrestling™

* Rugby 2005

* Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon™ 2

Never say never.....I'm sure it'll work, they just have to develop some code. People are so adament about bashing the list. It was much better when they said Halo and Halo2 will be BC. People bitch more with a bigger list....funnny

People have a right to bitch when the competition well offer full backwards compatibility to this gen, and even PS1 support on the PS3 and the downloadable N64/SNES/NES games.

MS dropped the ball here for anyone that cares about BC. It's better than just Halo, but still sucks balls compared to the forthcoming competition.

The 360 will eventually be fully backward compatible. This is just the STARTING list of backward compatible games. Microsoft has said they are still working on the rest of the games. I would say by this time next year, most if not all Xbox games will be 360 compatible.

No, it will not. MS will not invest the time and effort supporting low volume games. This is a fact.

Pass me the crystal ball jeff, I want to see tomorrow's lottery numbers ;) How is that a fact, do you have a link?

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/back...tibilityqa.htm

"Xbox.com: By what date do you plan to have all original Xbox games backward compatible?

Todd: We're continuing to work hard to certify as many original Xbox games to work on Xbox 360 as possible; we'll be adding to the list regularly.

Xbox.com: What criteria do you use in choosing which Xbox games will be backward compatible on Xbox 360? How far back into the Xbox game library are you going to go?

Todd: When we say Xbox library, we mean the entire Xbox library. This ranges all the way from our launch in 2001 up to games that haven't even shipped yet. As we've said before, we prioritized the top-selling titles and those games with a large Xbox Live following for launch, and we're going deeper into the portfolio every day."

No link, just common economic sense. Would you engadge in a practice that adds little to no value to your personal worth?

Of course Microsoft is going to say that they will support all games, they wouldn't say otherwise. If they did they would lose all those people that might not buy if there was a chance their games may not be playable. Marketing 101.

All I am saying is this, there are many titles that are not worth it to anyone if they bother to support it. Titles that no one really cares about. (Old sport titles? Craptacular games?) Eventually MS will pull "porting" these games to prevent throwing further money away. They are sticking to the "every game" mantra for marketing reasons only. Look me up in 5 years, I'll give you $1000 if the 360 is capable of playing every xbox title as a result of MS's direct efforts.

My crystal ball is economic theory combined with past history. It has worked well so far, but is not a certianty, nor is Microsofts's word, especially from a person who doesn't make the decisions.

If MS intended to eventually make all XBox games compatible with the 360, they'd be crowing about it at the top of their lungs. The fact that they're vague on the matter at the very least suggests that they're not sure if they'd be able to deliver on such a promise.

My guess is that they've got a general emulator that handles 90% of the code just fine, but that compatibility and performance issues with 10% of the code require hand tuning and recompiling. That would explain the 5MB patch file required for each game. The problem is that making each game compatible in this fashion is labor intensive and the difficulty will vary from game to game.

I further suspect that aside from a handful of top priority games like Halo, that MS wanted as many games on the BC list as possible at launch so they mainly worked on those games that were the easiest to "port." That is, they've picked the low hanging fruit and as they continue to work on adding games, it'll only get harder and harder.

Add to that the fact that as time passes, their incentive to add to the list only goes down. So my guess would be that MS isn't going to get to 100%. Being the cynical sort, I tend to believe that the number of titles they add to that list will drop off precipitously a few months after launch.

Keep in mind why a lot of titles will work...because once they get one game working, they'll find the groundwork they laid makes other games work too. Why do you think there are all those low volume crap games on the list already?

While they might not get to 100%, I have little doubt they'll cover a large portion of the library. They'll hit all the titles that people are calling for, and along the way you'll get a bunch of others by default (as has happened already).

Granted, I don't own an Xbox so I'm not too concerned if this or that game doesn't work. For a newbie like me, 200 plus games sounds great.

Nicely said Belboz...

I already addressed your question earlier in the thread. However every game will require some tweaking, thats why all games require a 5mb file.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

You guys are missing one thing though. In a year they'll be going head to head with PS3 and Revolution, both of which are going to be touting their "backwards compatibility". It would make a lot of sense for MS to be 100% backwards compatible by that time so they can nullify that advantage.

That is a very strong point. I kind of glazed over that, however I still think if they can convince people that "most" is enough... Besides, most people don't remember all the promises xbox LIVE was supposed to deliver that never came...

PS3 and Nintendo will be looking for weaknesses to exploit (since MS will be dropping their cost next year to be more competitive), that will be a glaring one that people will consider (like JoshHinkle) before buying. I think they are going to be busy as hell getting that list 99.9% compatible before year's end.

Also, if they don't do they are making a mistake. And what features does Xbox live not have that they said it would?

I don't think the 360 will ever be 100% backward-compatible, but I do think it will play at least 90% of the original Xbox games. The PS2 is not 100% compatible with PS1 games. There was a list somewhere of PS1 games that are not compatible with the PS2. The same thing will probably happen with the PS3; there will be some PS2 games it is not compatible with.

The only thing I've heard of was the web camera. I guess microsoft became aware that some people would do some nasty things with it.

So are there rumors of axeing the camera for the 360? I hope not because i want some eyetoy like games!