Microsoft lied.

IMO, BC started out with the specific goal, "Since Halo 3 won't be ready for the 360 launch, we need to get Halo 2 running on the 360". So they developed an interpretative layer to support Halo 2 and discovered, "oh, it can play some other games too!" Some MS marketeer got wind of the news and took it way beyond that to, "Backward Compatibility".

It's this quote from the "Corporate VP of the XBox Product Group" that pisses me off. This quote is from the Q&A from the official Xbox.com Backwards Compatibility list:

Xbox.com: What criteria do you use in choosing which Xbox games will be backward compatible on Xbox 360? How far back into the Xbox game library are you going to go?

Todd: When we say Xbox library, we mean the entire Xbox library. This ranges all the way from our launch in 2001 up to games that haven't even shipped yet. As we've said before, we prioritized the top-selling titles and those games with a large Xbox Live following for launch, and we're going deeper into the portfolio every day.

I pretty much agree with the assessment that it was overblown and overhyped, but this Q&A is STILL available on the official forum and this guy doesn't sound like an XBox PR rep. I'm not sure how it's possible for them to spin "When we say Xbox library, we mean the entire Xbox library."

Here's a blog about the topic:
http://blogs.msdn.com/xboxteam/artic...atibility.aspx

Yes, it is *incredibly* hard. Read the blog entry linked above for some details. Software emulation is very difficult to pull off with 100% accurate reproduction even under ideal circumstances. However, the circumstances facing the 360 are less than ideal. The hardware is very, very different between the Xbox and the Xbox 360. Moreover, it is pretty much unheard of for one console to acceptably emulate purely in software another console from the previous generation (the PS2/PS3 doesn't count, as its emulation is not done purely in software). Even though the Nintendo SNES is (obviously) very weak compared to the original Xbox (and two generations behind it), the Xbox cannot emulate many SNES games very well. All things considered, it is really quite amazing that BC works at all on the 360.

Also, please realize that the core of the best performing software emulators will generally be coded in assembly language, which is more efficient than higher level languages such as C/C++. Assembly is a bit of a lot art in the programming world and is VERY difficult. I will point you to this recent thread in the Tech Talk forum for a little taste.

I have to imagine the 360 emulator is no different. It probably has substantial portions written in assembly. Assembly language takes a lot of time and skill.

Not only the hardware differences but this "type" of emulation has never been attempted before. Emulating 480p, 5.1, multiplayer, Live, anamorphic and whatnot. I'm sure it is quite a nightmare.

Not even in the same ballpark as emulating a NES or SNES.

So then would it be fair to say they were lying when they said they wanted to emulate every game in the library back to 2001? I mean, they had to know how hard it would be (and I know NOTHING about any of this but it sounds like a real bitch).

I think that is definitely a fair assumption and a bait & switch tactic to get people on board the new system.

It's just a baffling strategy to me. First off, they couldn't produce enough consoles at launch to satisfy more than (my guess) 10% of interested buyers. So they then release a totally false bait-and-switch statement about becoming fully backwards compatible maybe 2 weeks after their launch? While they still couldn't satisfy even a fraction of the demand? Did they expect this to sell more 360s down the road? But then I think we would agree they knew they couldn't live up to every game becoming BC even years from launch. So they can't meet supply and release an impossible goal? There is still far more demand than supply even roughly 6 months after launch, and that interview saying they are doing well and working to become fully BC is still posted. This makes absolutely freaking zero sense to me. The kicker of all this is they didn't need BC to sell the system, the titles available now (especially Oblivion) sell the system and I bet few people would care if it wasn't BC with the possible exception of Halo 2. I think this whole BC mess is more ridiculous than the launch quantities.

I want Unreal Championship 2 BC :)

I just want my Midway Arcade Treasures discs to be BC. That would make me very happy since i gave up on smaller titles i wanted to go back and play like Psychonauts and Beyond Good and Evil.

BC was announced at E3 of last year, months before launch. Microsoft has never said all games are backwards compatible, only that that is their eventual goal -- neither did they give specific timetables.

Again, they are working on it, and working towards it. What happens is games will use a specific feature or effect, let's say "games with snow in them" -- then what happens is that all the games with snow in them, SSX3, SSX On Tour, etc. won't work until they figure out how to work with snow. Meanwhile, other problems were "games with ninjas" -- well, it was easy how to get games with ninjas to work. So now, we can play Ninja Gaiden, Samurai Warrior and... Kabuki Warriors.

Sure, no one really asked for Kabuki Warriors to work, but it got to be working because they figured out the ninja problem.

This is the reason BC is so difficult and it appears to be haphazard. Right now, MSoft is focusing on whatever gets them bang for their buck. We'll see how it continues.

Yeah. Ninjas are always a problem.

is this a joke?

rotfl rotfl rotfl

hell, you never know. if this was gamefaqs i wouldn't even have asked, i would have known he was serious

Hey, please don't take that the wrong way, it just really struck me funny, thats all. I was not making fun of your question.

I think instead of Ninja or Snow he meant to use "particular instruction sets" and "nVidia specific shading algorithms"

As others have said, Microsoft is aiming for and would like to eventually achieve complete BC, but no time tables have been set. I don't believe they ever guaranteed it nor said it would happen soon, so I do not consider it to be bait and switch.

Also, keep in mind that the emulator is locked in such a way that it will only work with specific games. It is likely that IF Microsoft released an unlocked version, most games would work to some degree. For example, they might play really slowly, have no sound, or lock up at a certain point, etc. These are very common problems with software emulators for the PC--some games work great, some don't. People in the PC emulation world accept this. After all, emulators for a PC are generally free, so some level of imperfection is excusable (it has taken a long time for MAME to be as good as it is today).

By contrast, with the Xbox 360 or other consoles that officially support emulation (i.e. without a mod chip), people have paid good money and tend to expect a relatively bug- and hassle- free experience. They don't understand the technical difficulties posed by software emulation and don't care. Thus, the trick for Microsoft becomes perfecting and optimizing the emulation such that a game works to a degree that is actually playable all the way through without any showstoppers and is, thus, acceptable to its customers. Once they reach that point with a game (which requires extensive testing, in addition to the difficult programming), they release an update to the BC executable that is locked to allow playing only the well- supported and tested games.

from a general design standpoint either microsoft has some really messed up hardware, or they are screwing the BC because of marketing and to "sell the newest version" i'd put my money on the later. this is they way they work and in a way it is good it forces upgrade, but the computer market is different from the console market. now since they own all the code and the emu is just the code that was on the eprom in the 1st xbox but compiled to be on a RISC system i don't see any reason why all the games wouldn't work. since the emu would be programmed to run at the standard xbox speed and use the xbox 1 amount of memory etc bam all the games work. at the same time if the emu they are using isn't just the shell of the eprom off the first xbox and they're just recompiling the .xbe files to run native in RISC then i can see why it is taking longer. either way we are screwed and it isn't due to the hardware of software guys at microsoft it is due to their marketing and what they think the final say in how fast and soon things should be release. i've said it before and i'll say it once again yes pete you can suck my balls. just my 4.5 cents

Well, "Black" works on the 360 so thats saying something right?

yeah that game was kinda cool

Yeah, it's saying that if you have "Black" or want to play "Black" then you're okay... but if you want to play, say... "The Sims", then you are SOL. :grumble:

well im glad to see new titles like black and battlefront 2

i might get them now

I think I've become more skeptical because of how few updates the BC list has had and it's difficult for me to believe they will put more effort in to making old titles BC rather than focusing on the future of the 360. Black is great, and runs well too, it all comes back to the quote above for me that they said EVERY title and it's just not going to happen.

I believe they said they are aiming to have every game. I do not believe they guaranteed it. Nevertheless, as I understand it, Microsoft has a small team dedicated to BC. Other teams are working on the rest of the 360's future. I suspect that the BC team will continue its task until it gets as close to 100% perfect emulation as possible. It may not be possible, but I think updates will continue for a while before they hit that wall.

BTW, I read that Microsoft pulled some of the Xbox programmers to work on the next version of Windows (Vista) as it needs some performance boosts. I would not be surprised if some of the BC guys were temporarily put on that since perfect emulation requires squeezing every last drop out of the hardware. Once Vista is released, perhaps BC updates will be more frequent. You have to realize that IF that is what happened (and I don't know, it is speculation) it is understandable. The Xbox division is currently a money loser for MS. Windows and Office are its bread and butter and, in a way, have subsidized the gaming division that delivered the Xbox and 360 to us!

BC is critical now.... not a year from now. No one will care what titles are BC then. Backward Compatibility serves 2 purposes... first, it allows those with the original XBox to preserve their investment in games when moving to the 360. Second, it helps supplement the handful of 360-specific titles. But as time goes on, there will be more 360 titles and so less reason to seek out an XBox game. And those with XBoxes will grow tired of those old games and either trade them in, or sell them. No one will care or want BC a year from now.

Microsoft oversold and overhyped a few capabilities of the 360.... Backward Compatibility and Media playback via Windows Media Connect are two of them. Rather than address those issues more vigorously, they're moving forward with more Marketplace content. They've already got our money on the system, so there is no incentive to deliver on the missing pieces. They're focused on separating us from more of our money.

I have had a 360 since launch. I have used BC 0 times. There are plenty of quality Xbox 360 titles out there right now, more at this early stage than any other console in history. I did not expect BC, and it was a rather late addition to the feature list. Given the incredible difficulty adding it involves, we are lucky to have it at all.

MS is working on both BC and better media connectivity, but programming and testing such features takes time. I for one like what they are doing with the Marketplace. I have gotten FAR more use and enjoyment out of Marketplace via XBL Arcade and Demos than I ever would from BC and and media connectivity. Different strokes I guess.

Precisely. there will be plenty of 360 games a year from now to choose from and seeking out old games will fade out. BC is key NOW to bide your time between the lack of [quality] 360 releases.

There are only a few left I would like to play and they are smaller titles, so unlikely they will see support and by the time they do I will have likely moved on.

There have been a lot of quality 360 releases in the past month, with more just around the corner.

Is there any reason why Prince of Persia: Sands of Time is BC but the other two PoP games are not? All three games use the same graphic engine, so I would think that if one works, they should all work.

I've had my 360 since launch as well. I have used BC for one title... Halo 2. (There's about 5 XBox games not on the BC list that I would like to play). BC was NOT a rather late addition to the feature list. The Actual list of BC titles was though. We are lucky?! It was Microsoft that promised BC. They promised eventual 100% BC. No one made them say it. They said it because it would help sell consoles.

I never owned an XBox. I fell for Microsoft's sales pitch of the 360 being a media hub... play next-gen games, play XBox games, video, music, photos, online marketplace, etc.

There are NOT "plenty" of quality 360-specific titles. There's probably 1/2 dozen that stand out.

I'm a software developer and I know what is required to design, code, and test. The complexity of the task does not excuse Microsoft from failing to deliver on what they promised. Microsoft still has refused to acknowledge the inability for the 360 to stream video via Windows Media Connect.

The Marketplace is for suckers. Why? Because the content you purchase is non-transferrable and non-refundable. What good is buying add-ons for PGR3 and Oblivion, if you can't transfer them when you get rid of the game? Downloadable content is nice, but shipping out a CDROM with what I paid for would be better.

Don't get me started on the Arcade titles... :brickwl2:

As late as May 13, 2005, Microsoft still didn't know if the 360 would be BC. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...boxback13.html . IIRC, they started assembling systems in late August for the November 2005 release. BC was indeed a late addition.

I don't recall such a promise. I recall saying that was the ultimate goal. Please provide a source.

You are apparently missing out. FNR3, CoD2, PDZ, Condemned, GRAW, PGR3, Oblivion, Far Cry Instincts Predator, Burnout Revenge, Kameo, DOA4, and Top Spin 2 are all quality titles. Yes, some of those were released on other consoles too, but it is not like they are direct ports with no improvements. For a console that is not even 6 months old yet, that is plenty.

Again, please show me where they promised 100% BC. Prior to launch, Microsoft indicated that Windows MCE was required for streaming video. Vista will be able to stream video, and MS is looking at adding the feature to XP.

If Marketplace content were transferable, piracy would be rampant. It is a necessary evil. I have seen some of your rants about Arcade games. You are in the minority. I have enjoyed them a lot. XBL Arcade is a great idea that allows smaller development houses to get into the console gaming world cheaply. MS has bigger plans for this from what I understand, so it will only get better.

Maybe if you like every genre, but to me I'm not into boxing, RPGs, Fighting games or stealth FPSs. Add to that PDZ was crap and shouldn't be mentioned among the quality titles. So I'm down to a half dozen games to play. I'm sure I'm not the only one that doesn't play every genre either. So I'd say the half dozen comment is accurate to the average gamer.

I'd have to say, even half a dozen quality games six months away from launch is a pretty decent number. Unless, you don't remember other system launches.

FNR3 was really incredible when i played it on a 60+" LCD Screen for the first time. However, a couple matches later, and it felt like the first Fight Night i played on ps2. Graphics are amazing tho. PDZ, Condemned, GRAW, FCI and COD2 are all FPS games, which i cannot stand. So those are out for me. PGR3 i liked a lot, but not sure id spend 50 on it, 20 for sure. Burnout revenge is hardly an upgrade from the ps2 version IMO, so no way id be spending $$$ on that.

That leaves Kameo (which i felt was slow paced and not really too intresting for the 30 min i played it), Top Spin 2 (Sorry, but no game will touch Virtua Tennis, that is the ultimate!), and DOA4 (I really liked this one!). So yah, the 360 game library HARDLY caters to all types. Its game library resembles that of the old xbox, FPS games, Sports games and Racing games with the occasional fighting game.

That being said, once i see more then just SF2 up on the Xbox Live Arcade that fully supports online with no issues, i will buy a 360 just for those titles and maybe DOA4 as well (itll be cheaper used by then). You see, even with all the "standard" titles release, the Xbox Live Arcade opened up new doors for new types of xbox owners, such as myself. I hope to see MK1, MK2, and some awesome Neo Geo fighters all aval on XLA, i will own all of them immediately!

PGR3, Condemned, Oblivion, Kameo, CoD2, and GRAW are the only "quality" titles even though I don't care for war games and RPGs.


Not True. Microsoft stated days before launch that streaming media (including video) would be accessible via Windows XP PCs running Windows Media Connect. There are still plenty of links to references on the XBox forums where Microsoft STILL claims that streaming video is capable with a Windows XP PC.

In your opinion. Microsoft never said that.

Yeah, MS has bigger plans to separate suckers from their money. Bizarre Creations would rather produce a for-pay add-on for PGR3 than fix the bugs that currently exist. This epitomizes what the 360 and XBox Live is about... nickel and diming.

I know that I'm in the minority...and it is irrelevant. I don't want to change anyone's opinion on XBLM or XBLA. You think that spending $2.50 for horse armor in Oblivion is great, well, that's good for you. Me, I think it's stupid.

Who put you in charge of naming the quality games?

Lot's of people enjoyed DOA 4, Burnout Revenge, and FN 3.

It was announced MONTHS ahead of time that MCE was required. I got a copy of MCE in September for that very reason and I sat on the idea for a while.

I don't remember seeing video streaming ever associated with media connect, can you post those links on the Xbox forums?

I'm not familiar with the PGR 3 situation because I don't play racing games. So I'll stay away from that one.

I agree that the horse armor for $2.50 was a major rip off, but it was Bethesda who set that price. They say that they were experimenting trying to figure out the market.

The next DLC for Oblivion contains quests, new areas, and new abilities for a cheaper price than the horse armor.