Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

cause Lettermans funny?

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

Ah, that's the kind of objective viewpoint I was missing!

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

I'm just sad that the Dancing Itos are out of work.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

I was unaware of that.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

I used to watch Late Night on occassion, can't stand the TBS show... Conan's humor just isn't what it was. That said, I looked it up earlier, and I'd forgotten that the Jay Leno Show didn't stop until a month *after* Conan left. My reason for looking was, did Conan *ever* have a chance when the ratings albatross of the NBC 10pm Leno experiment as lead-in didn't torpedo him. The answer was no.

Conan had what, June-August of 09 without Leno Show at 10. Meaning he *never* ***ever*** had a night with new scripted/non Jay Leno shows leading into the 11pm news. Meaning the Conan Tonight Show always had either a repeat or the Jay Leno Show at 10pm.

So creative control, he wasn't right for it, whatever... sorry, doesn't much matter. Conan literally never had a single episode where he had a legitimate chance. And 99.999999% of it was because of Jay Leno (+nitwits at NBC). Conan earned a right to be as bitter as they come when that bitterness is directed towards Jay Leno. He might be happy now, but the Tonight Show is the crown gem of late night. That alone, removing the lost additional audience/revenue/bigger canvas, would allow someone in Conan's shoes full rights to be as bitter about things as he wants to be.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

Not since the mid-'90s.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

Conan has a bitchy vibe which put off networks.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

It didn't really "put off" NBC, which gave him the coveted Tonight Show spot. It was only when The Jay Leno Show tanked that the NBC execs figured that losing Conan was cheaper than losing Leno (Leno had a bigger contract).

Meanwhile, CBS already had its talk show hosts, while Fox and ABC haven't really been going after anyone for a talk show. There was a lot of talk when Conan left NBC about possibly going to FOX, but that fell through due more to the relationships between the network and its affiliates than anything to do with Conan.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

You say that like he's making these types of jokes all the time. I think he's maybe made 5 Leno jokes during his time at TBS. He takes an occasional jab at NBC (and CBS and Fox), but it's pretty rare when he jokes about the Tonight Show fiasco, actually.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

Yeah it's always to do with some misunderstood events, never their personalities nope.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

How do you not realize that these are very different jokes?

The Letterman joke is referencing that Leno had already left The Tonight Show before. That happened. It's a historical fact. Though a viewer is probably aware of Letterman's opinion of Leno's behavior at that time, the joke does not explicitly offer any opinion on Leno's character. It's actually more of a dig at NBC.

The Conan joke is totally an insult-based attack on Leno. That's the whole joke: Jay Leno is an asshole.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

Yeah I honestly barely remember Conan taking a big jab at Leno or NBC since his new show started. He's made an occasional joke but it's usually self depreciating more than anything. I think he's realized that while things didn't go how he wanted with The Tonight Show that ultimately things have worked out better in the end for him. The above joke is a dig at Leno but it's not like he's overkilled Leno/NBC jokes.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

Who cares?

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

Andy Richter

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

I don't see how his attitude was bitchy. He was given a spot by NBC who wanted to have their cake and eat it too by having Conan in the spot they promised him and trying to keep Jay around too. Let's remember it was The Jay Leno Show being a failure which led to the local affiliates news programs taking a dip in ratings which in turn led to the fiasco of NBC deciding that Jay was more valuable than Conan apparently. He basically decided rather than being treated like a second rate star and having his show yanked after only seven months on the air to take his show elsewhere. I don't see how that's bitchy or bitter, more like he just didn't want to take crap from an employer who obviously didn't have as much faith in him as they originally instilled.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

It wasn't just seven months in Conan's mind. He had stayed on NBC at 12:30 for 4-5 years to get the 11:30 job. If they weren't going to let him have it AND KEEP IT, then he is looking at 5+ years wasted at NBC when he could have been establishing himself at FOX or maybe even ABC.

Also, the "wait and take over The Tonight Show" deal had a $50 million penalty clause. By giving him the show title, but not the timeslot, Conan probably felt that NBC was cheating him out of that money.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

I think people looking at The Tonight Show as some golden legacy are out of it. The Tonight Show is a crown gem to an older generation. The kids growing up today aren't going to see the Tonight Show as any sort of legacy nor do they have any respect or desire to know about Johnny Carson. More of them probably know who Joan Rivers is than him since she is on the E Network.

Late Night is very diverse now with cable in the game. I think the networks will continue to level out, especially once Letterman finally gets out of there. The kids today will probably remember Jon Stewart, Chelsea Handler or Andy Cohen more-so than Conan or Jay. Their shows stand out more to me than Conan rehashing a tired format on cable.

I think Fallon will probably still beat Letterman overall during his run and do better than Conan's Tonight Show. And, it's not like NBC in general is in any great shape. I think the Jay Leno Show lead-in stuff is bogus. If Conan was that good, the viewers would follow (and they didn't to TBS).

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

The affiliates are the ones who didn't want The Jay Leno Show on the air because shortly after it began is when the numbers for the local news shows dipped. That in turn definitely didn't help Conan's numbers at all. The whole problem is too much of that kind of a show is overkill plain and simple. NBC didn't need to have three late night shows in one night every night of the week. The smart thing to do probably would have been for Jay to do The Jay Leno Show possibly on the weekends only and maybe a special now and again.

Conan still has a pretty decent following on TBS, not incredibly high ratings but still enough especially for a show on basic cable and enough that I'm sure TBS is satisfied. Plus you have to remember a lot of the audience that Conan attracts probably watches his show online or has it recorded on a DVR or whatever.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

But the viewers did come, Conan was winning the 18-49 demo, which is exactly what NBC wanted when they put him as host. The only reason Leno got the show back was because of money. The absurd "play and pay" deal he had meant it was going to cost NBC $90 million to buy him out vs. $30 million to buy out Conan. The idea that Conan's ratings were so bad was only created by NBC once they realized the PR hit they were taking.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

You can go ahead and completely overlook the Letterman's-joke implication that Leno will be doing it again in 4 years because that's his character.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

I don't think that is the implication of the joke and even if it is, it is still very different from Conan's more direct attack. Conan's joke is based in personal bitterness. If Letterman's joke is about personal bitterness, you need a road map of his psyche to make the connection.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

Conan can't be bitter?

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

This is what bothers me the most about this. Leno loved to brag about handshake deals and not having an agent and never spending a dime of his NBC money. So why was NBC so scared of getting sued by a guy who supposedly didn't care about contracts and really just did this for fun?

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

Seriously? It's a pretty clear connection what Dave is getting at, I'm not sure how much clearer it could be unless you know none of their personal history. I'm pretty sure he's speaking to his experience as well as to what happened with Jay and Conan. Also why is it such a big deal to you if Conan maybe is a bit bitter? He has a right to be in the first place, but really while he may slightly be he doesn't harp on that issue constantly or anything.

Re: NBC: let's see how low we can go (Conan thread, part 2)
 

You're on a thematic run today!

Just because Leno would claim that he didn't care about contracts and preferred to do business with a handshake does not mean that he did not have a contract that could be legally enforced.

Do you really think that NBC's defense in a lawsuit could be: "Yes, we have a legally binding contract with Mr. Leno, but he said he doesn't care about these things, so that makes it invalid"?