The Babylon 5 Season FOUR Discussion Thread
#101
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Today's Episode: "Falling Toward Apotheosis"
The Vorlons step up their battle against the Shadows. Londo uncovers a new wrinkle in his plan to unseat Emperor Cartagia. Sheridan asks Garibaldi to remove Kosh from the station. Delenn gets a surprise from Sheridan.
Sheridan authorized the transfer of refugees to Epsilon 3 without even consulting with Draal. How does he know Draal wouldn't object? If the planet is still available as a defense mechanism for the station, Draal would most likely need to tell the crew where to set up camp, lest they put refugees right on top of an underground weapon. It's also interesting that the surface of Epsilon 3 is apparently habitable, given that oxygen masks were required to breathe underground ("A Voice in the Wilderness.") Perhaps the crew is assuming Draal will provide an appropriate atmosphere.
Delenn recognized Kosh immediately. Does that mean she had previously seen his true form? If so, it was most likely in "Chrysalis," though why he would let her see through his mask then isn't clear, since he most likely projected an image to her in "The Fall of Night."
By failing to suggest a punishment for G'Kar, Londo has likely just wasted his first chance for redemption: saving the eye that does not see ("Point of No Return.")
Cartagia's vision of the end of Centauri Prime ("Let it all end in fire") may be related to Kosh's reply to Emperor Turhan in "The Coming of Shadows," to whom he said that things would end "in fire."
Delenn recognized Kosh immediately. Does that mean she had previously seen his true form? If so, it was most likely in "Chrysalis," though why he would let her see through his mask then isn't clear, since he most likely projected an image to her in "The Fall of Night."
By failing to suggest a punishment for G'Kar, Londo has likely just wasted his first chance for redemption: saving the eye that does not see ("Point of No Return.")
Cartagia's vision of the end of Centauri Prime ("Let it all end in fire") may be related to Kosh's reply to Emperor Turhan in "The Coming of Shadows," to whom he said that things would end "in fire."
#102
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From: Indy
I thought killing Kosh 2 was pretty extreme. I mean, come on, he's just an ambassador. Noone suggested killing G'Kar or Londo when their two races were at war. Any of them could have destroyed B5 (albeit through different means). Kosh wasn't really making such threats either... mostly just spying from what I could tell. They could have just solved that by keeping Lyta away from private strategic discussions.
#103
Um ... they were destroying entire planets and had declared war on everything touched by the Shadows, which for all intents and purposes was everything. Londo and G'Kar had very little power, and at worst they could have maybe found a way to destroy the station, which would have sucked, but life would go on for the Universe. However, had Kosh II made a move on the station, that's it. Bye-bye everything. Besides, Lyta and Lorien both knew what he was up to. I'm sure his death was quite necessary.
das
das
#104
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From: Indy
I suppose, but you could also argue that killing Kosh would have pissed off the Vorlon Empire enough to jump in and destroy the station immediatley after.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I still think not killing their ambassador would be the better move to make when trying to keep B5 safe.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I still think not killing their ambassador would be the better move to make when trying to keep B5 safe.
#105
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Either way, he needed to be put off the station. His government was at war with pretty much everybody, slaughtering millions (maybe even billions) of innocents, with no apparent sign of stopping or offering a non-violent solution.
So they ask him to leave the station. He answers by attacking the security crew.
If Londo or G'Kar had done the same thing, then you can be damn sure that lethal means would have been used to take them out. Even though the Centauri were at war with a bunch of the League of Nonaligned Worlds, they weren't slaughtering their populations en masse.
And keep in mind that Babylon 5 was touched by the Shadows, so I doubt that they would have been spared anyway.
So they ask him to leave the station. He answers by attacking the security crew.
If Londo or G'Kar had done the same thing, then you can be damn sure that lethal means would have been used to take them out. Even though the Centauri were at war with a bunch of the League of Nonaligned Worlds, they weren't slaughtering their populations en masse.
And keep in mind that Babylon 5 was touched by the Shadows, so I doubt that they would have been spared anyway.
#106
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Today's Episode: "The Long Night"
As the Army of Light prepares to strike, Londo and Vir continue to plot Cartagia's downfall. Ivanova and Lorien look for more First Ones. The Shadows unleash a terrible new weapon.
The Narn clearly don't know why the Centauri really left their world. How will they react if and when they learn that it was a bargain on G'Kar's part, not the stubborn resistance of the Narn people as a whole, that caused their invaders to leave?
Although it was clearly unintentional one of Vir's earliest appearances has what could be considered foreshadowing of his killing of Cartagia. In "Born to the Purple," Londo asks Vir, "What do you want, you moon-faced assassin of joy?" Vir has turned out to be an assassin, and by killing Cartagia, Vir has undone some of the damage that began when Londo first answered Morden's question, "What do you want?" in "Signs and Portents."
Another possible unintentional foreshadowing of Vir's actions was the Minbari rebirth ceremony in "The Parliament of Dreams." During the ceremony, Delenn handed out fruits while she recited a Minbari holy text. As she gave Londo his fruit, she spoke of birth; Vir's, death and renewal. Obviously it wasn't JMS's intent at the time, but Londo can be seen as bringing on the birth of the newly ascendant Centauri Republic by helping Refa bring Cartagia to power. Vir brings its death in the form of the assassination, and its rebirth in the resulting shift in power.
Although it was clearly unintentional one of Vir's earliest appearances has what could be considered foreshadowing of his killing of Cartagia. In "Born to the Purple," Londo asks Vir, "What do you want, you moon-faced assassin of joy?" Vir has turned out to be an assassin, and by killing Cartagia, Vir has undone some of the damage that began when Londo first answered Morden's question, "What do you want?" in "Signs and Portents."
Another possible unintentional foreshadowing of Vir's actions was the Minbari rebirth ceremony in "The Parliament of Dreams." During the ceremony, Delenn handed out fruits while she recited a Minbari holy text. As she gave Londo his fruit, she spoke of birth; Vir's, death and renewal. Obviously it wasn't JMS's intent at the time, but Londo can be seen as bringing on the birth of the newly ascendant Centauri Republic by helping Refa bring Cartagia to power. Vir brings its death in the form of the assassination, and its rebirth in the resulting shift in power.
#107
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Vir killing that loon Cartagia was just a wonderful surprise which is what I'm sure JMS intended. The first time I watched the show I just knew Londo would be the one to carry out the assassination but noooo. Classic IMHO.
#108
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From: wishing I was in Vegas
You think it was a surprise for us, how do you think Vir felt?
He has grown so much from Flounder, and I think this episode was Stephen Furst's best.
Has anybody watched the main menu page for any length of time? The morphing is kinda cool, better than previous seasons IMO. But I’m not sure I like watching Claudia growing a mustache and turning into Jason Carter. Sounds like the makings of a bad dream.
He has grown so much from Flounder, and I think this episode was Stephen Furst's best.
Has anybody watched the main menu page for any length of time? The morphing is kinda cool, better than previous seasons IMO. But I’m not sure I like watching Claudia growing a mustache and turning into Jason Carter. Sounds like the makings of a bad dream.
#109
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It was a surprise for Vir to kill Cartagia, but it really worked. I read how it was Stephen Furst's idea, and JMS jumped on it because it was such a surprise, and it made total sense. Vir's reaction to what he did was great as well. Yes, our li'l Flounder has grown up.
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Originally posted by BandoButters
It was a surprise for Vir to kill Cartagia, but it really worked. I read how it was Stephen Furst's idea, and JMS jumped on it because it was such a surprise, and it made total sense. Vir's reaction to what he did was great as well. Yes, our li'l Flounder has grown up.
It was a surprise for Vir to kill Cartagia, but it really worked. I read how it was Stephen Furst's idea, and JMS jumped on it because it was such a surprise, and it made total sense. Vir's reaction to what he did was great as well. Yes, our li'l Flounder has grown up.
"I'm writing 405, "The Long Night," and there's something that one character was supposed to do in the script, that had been the plan all along, that was my intent even as near as 1 page from where it was going to happen...then just as I got to that scene, another character stepped up and said, "no, let me do it." I was kinda flummoxed. "You?! You're the LAST person anyone would think to do this." The character nodded. "Exactly." And the symmetry was perfect, the impact would be greater...so that's who did it. "
He's actually referring to the character (in his head) making the suggestion, not the actor.
#112
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I just finished watching "Face of the Enemy".
I really thought the end of what I saw as the major plotline
would bring the show down a notch. I should have known better.
I really thought the end of what I saw as the major plotline
Spoiler:
Last edited by Bandoman; 01-18-04 at 08:29 AM.
#114
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Today's Episode: "Into the Fire"
Posting late Sunday as opposed to early Monday as I have off for MLK and won't be getting up to post at the usual time.
The Army of Light mounts its final assault. Londo learns some surprising information about Morden.
The First Ones were of surprisingly little help, considering the trouble to which Ivanova and Lorien went to secure their assistance. They amounted to little more than strange-looking guns, just there to pop in, destroy the Vorlon planetkiller, and do little else (though one of them can be seen destroying a few Shadow and Vorlon ships.) Why were the Shadows and Vorlons seemingly undisturbed by the intervention of their peers, preferring instead to continue fighting as before? Why didn't the First Ones do anything about the Shadow planetkiller?
Sheridan's plan -- luring the Shadows to Coriana 6 with false information, then planting bombs in nearby asteroids -- is the same strategy he employed to good effect against the Black Star during the Earth-Minbari War ("There All the Honor Lies.")
When he first appeared in "Signs and Portents," Morden asked G'Kar, Delenn, and Londo what they wanted. Later, in "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum," he asked the same of Vir. The irony is, only Vir actually ended up getting exactly what he asked for.
The Shadows themselves may have departed, but what have they left behind? Many of their ships were manned by other races. Did the pilots leave for the Rim as well, or are there still Shadow ships flying around the galaxy? What about their cities on Z'ha'dum, and the ships they buried on worlds all over the galaxy? Did all their representatives on Earth and elsewhere leave too?
Sheridan's plan -- luring the Shadows to Coriana 6 with false information, then planting bombs in nearby asteroids -- is the same strategy he employed to good effect against the Black Star during the Earth-Minbari War ("There All the Honor Lies.")
When he first appeared in "Signs and Portents," Morden asked G'Kar, Delenn, and Londo what they wanted. Later, in "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum," he asked the same of Vir. The irony is, only Vir actually ended up getting exactly what he asked for.
The Shadows themselves may have departed, but what have they left behind? Many of their ships were manned by other races. Did the pilots leave for the Rim as well, or are there still Shadow ships flying around the galaxy? What about their cities on Z'ha'dum, and the ships they buried on worlds all over the galaxy? Did all their representatives on Earth and elsewhere leave too?
#115
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From: a small cottage on a cul de sac in the lower pits of hell.
This episode put the whole show in perspective. As I mentioned before in this thread, I after watching this one I wondered what the hell JMS could tell us next that wouldn't seem boring in comparison.
I thought the end of the episode was a tad anticlimactic, however. After building up the Vorlons and Shadows as these real badasses, they ended up being whiny children who just didn't want to be left alone. "You're going to take us with you, aren't you Lorien? We don't want to be alone." I suppose that's consistent with the storyline, however.
I thought the end of the episode was a tad anticlimactic, however. After building up the Vorlons and Shadows as these real badasses, they ended up being whiny children who just didn't want to be left alone. "You're going to take us with you, aren't you Lorien? We don't want to be alone." I suppose that's consistent with the storyline, however.
#116
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Originally posted by BandoButters
This episode put the whole show in perspective. As I mentioned before in this thread, I after watching this one I wondered what the hell JMS could tell us next that wouldn't seem boring in comparison.
I thought the end of the episode was a tad anticlimactic, however. After building up the Vorlons and Shadows as these real badasses, they ended up being whiny children who just didn't want to be left alone. "You're going to take us with you, aren't you Lorien? We don't want to be alone." I suppose that's consistent with the storyline, however.
This episode put the whole show in perspective. As I mentioned before in this thread, I after watching this one I wondered what the hell JMS could tell us next that wouldn't seem boring in comparison.
I thought the end of the episode was a tad anticlimactic, however. After building up the Vorlons and Shadows as these real badasses, they ended up being whiny children who just didn't want to be left alone. "You're going to take us with you, aren't you Lorien? We don't want to be alone." I suppose that's consistent with the storyline, however.
I had the exact same reaction as you, which is why, in another thread, I had mentioned that I wanted to see how the rest of the season played out before labeling B5 "great" rather than just "very good". I had already heard that season 5 was more of a wrap up, and I was fearful that more than half of season 4 would also fall into that category. Like you, I've recently watched "Face of the Enemy" and those fears were put to rest.
#117
How about you head over to that other thread and proclaim the show as "great" now? 
The reasons for the quick wrap-up are somewhat tied to the fear of no return, and they had to tell these two stories. In a perfect world, the first part of Season 4 would have taken another episode or two, the second part would have extended into Season 5, and Season 5 would have more fluidly integrated with Season 4. It all still works great anyway, but if you felt a little bit rushed, it's because the second half of the season kicks so much ass and they had to get to all of it before wrapping up Season 4, just in case.
das

The reasons for the quick wrap-up are somewhat tied to the fear of no return, and they had to tell these two stories. In a perfect world, the first part of Season 4 would have taken another episode or two, the second part would have extended into Season 5, and Season 5 would have more fluidly integrated with Season 4. It all still works great anyway, but if you felt a little bit rushed, it's because the second half of the season kicks so much ass and they had to get to all of it before wrapping up Season 4, just in case.
das
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From: Plantation, FL.
Originally posted by das Monkey
How about you head over to that other thread and proclaim the show as "great" now?
... but if you felt a little bit rushed, it's because the second half of the season kicks so much ass and they had to get to all of it before wrapping up Season 4, just in case.
das
How about you head over to that other thread and proclaim the show as "great" now?

... but if you felt a little bit rushed, it's because the second half of the season kicks so much ass and they had to get to all of it before wrapping up Season 4, just in case.
das
Spoiler:
Alright, off to update that other thread.
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It’s interesting how the overall quality of a show will influence many (most?) viewers’ forgiveness. Gray 17 Is Missing is a perfect example. We will forgive that oddity when taking the entire B5 epic as a whole. Negative comments about that episode seem general in nature.
Compared to a certain UPN staple, where each and every misstep is given a CSI-like investigatin...
Compared to a certain UPN staple, where each and every misstep is given a CSI-like investigatin...
#121
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Originally posted by Wizdar
It’s interesting how the overall quality of a show will influence many (most?) viewers’ forgiveness. Gray 17 Is Missing is a perfect example. We will forgive that oddity when taking the entire B5 epic as a whole. Negative comments about that episode seem general in nature.
Compared to a certain UPN staple, where each and every misstep is given a CSI-like investigatin...
It’s interesting how the overall quality of a show will influence many (most?) viewers’ forgiveness. Gray 17 Is Missing is a perfect example. We will forgive that oddity when taking the entire B5 epic as a whole. Negative comments about that episode seem general in nature.
Compared to a certain UPN staple, where each and every misstep is given a CSI-like investigatin...
Back on topic though. I have to say Vir's little moment of waving at Morden is one of my favorite. First because it's funny and second because like Chew's recap stated, out of all the main characters, Vir's the only one who actually gets what he asked for. Oh the irony.
#123
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Originally posted by Wizdar
That, and when Vir takes the sword to the Drazi booth, are two very satisfying moments.
That, and when Vir takes the sword to the Drazi booth, are two very satisfying moments.
#124
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Today's Episode: "Epiphanies"
Bester arrives with news of an Earth Alliance plan to further isolate Babylon 5. Garibaldi delivers some surprising news to Sheridan.
The Shadows, according to Anna Sheridan ("Z'ha'dum") believed they'd die if anything Vorlon touched Z'ha'dum. Many of them did die when Sheridan arrived with a piece of Kosh. And now Lyta's telepathy, enhanced by the Vorlons (and, indeed, genetically seeded by the Vorlons in the first place) has triggered the destruction of Z'ha'dum itself.
Why did Sheridan not realize where the Shadows' minions were headed? In "War Without End, Part One," he saw that they had gone to Centauri Prime. His failure to do anything about their arrival there probably explains Londo's accusation in that episode.
At least some Vorlon technology was left behind: the White Star Fleet. That would seem to give Sheridan a huge military edge against Earth, whose armed forces aren't even on par with the Minbari, let alone the Vorlons. (Assuming, of course, that Clark and the Psi Corps didn't manage to procure any Shadow technology.)
Who is in charge on Centauri Prime? The minister told Londo that the position of regent was mostly ceremonial. Londo is off on Babylon 5, presumably not spending his time dealing with matters of state. That would seem to leave a rather large power vacuum.
Why did Sheridan not realize where the Shadows' minions were headed? In "War Without End, Part One," he saw that they had gone to Centauri Prime. His failure to do anything about their arrival there probably explains Londo's accusation in that episode.
At least some Vorlon technology was left behind: the White Star Fleet. That would seem to give Sheridan a huge military edge against Earth, whose armed forces aren't even on par with the Minbari, let alone the Vorlons. (Assuming, of course, that Clark and the Psi Corps didn't manage to procure any Shadow technology.)
Who is in charge on Centauri Prime? The minister told Londo that the position of regent was mostly ceremonial. Londo is off on Babylon 5, presumably not spending his time dealing with matters of state. That would seem to leave a rather large power vacuum.



