The Babylon 5 Season FOUR Discussion Thread
02-04-04 | 12:52 PM
#201
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From: Plantation, FL.
Originally posted by MEJHarrison
I'm curious to know what the rest of you think of this episode.
I'm curious to know what the rest of you think of this episode.
02-05-04 | 06:03 AM
#202
Thread Starter
DVD Talk Legend
Today's Episode: "Between the Darkness and the Light"
Garibaldi is captured by the Mars Resistance. Ivanova's fleet clashes with Clark's forces. A plan to free Sheridan is launched.
The League's unanimous vote ran counter to Sheridan's request that they stay out of Earth's civil war ("No Surrender, No Retreat.") Upon his return, however, he didn't seem to object to the presence of the alien vessels; has he changed his mind about the need to credibly deny that his campaign is due to alien influence?
Just how powerful is Lyta? She has set off planetary defense systems from light-years away ("Epiphanies,") is able to easily slide past defenses put in place by the Psi Corps' most talented members, and can project detailed memories into the minds of others. There must be limits to her ability; Kosh was able to block her out ("Falling Toward Apotheosis.") But she appears to be light-years ahead of any other human telepath since Jason Ironheart ("Mind War.")
Lyta appeared startled when Garibaldi mentioned the conspiracy against the Psi Corps. Did she pull the details out of his mind, and if so, is the knowledge useful to her in any way?
How was Earth able to adapt Shadow technology so quickly, given that it's millions of years more advanced and apparently has a completely dissimilar basis (living matter as opposed to steel and wires?) Did Clark's people, or maybe the Psi Corps, receive technical assistance from the Shadows at some point?
Garibaldi doesn't have very good luck with his back, between the knifing in this episode and the gunshot in "Chrysalis." An additional irony is that he was stabbed in the back while helping rescue Sheridan, who he stabbed in the back in a metaphorical sense.
Just how powerful is Lyta? She has set off planetary defense systems from light-years away ("Epiphanies,") is able to easily slide past defenses put in place by the Psi Corps' most talented members, and can project detailed memories into the minds of others. There must be limits to her ability; Kosh was able to block her out ("Falling Toward Apotheosis.") But she appears to be light-years ahead of any other human telepath since Jason Ironheart ("Mind War.")
Lyta appeared startled when Garibaldi mentioned the conspiracy against the Psi Corps. Did she pull the details out of his mind, and if so, is the knowledge useful to her in any way?
How was Earth able to adapt Shadow technology so quickly, given that it's millions of years more advanced and apparently has a completely dissimilar basis (living matter as opposed to steel and wires?) Did Clark's people, or maybe the Psi Corps, receive technical assistance from the Shadows at some point?
Garibaldi doesn't have very good luck with his back, between the knifing in this episode and the gunshot in "Chrysalis." An additional irony is that he was stabbed in the back while helping rescue Sheridan, who he stabbed in the back in a metaphorical sense.
02-05-04 | 07:56 AM
#203
DVD Talk Limited Edition
About "Intersections": I still enjoy this episode a great deal. It's a perfect example of the difference between the B5 universe and the Star Trek universe: TNG S6 had an episode where Picard is captured and tortured by the Cardassians. Good episode, rather dark for TNG, but still missing something. "Intersections" just seems to take it several steps further which is great.
"Darkness" how many times is poor Garibaldi going to get it in the back? The recap is right, the irony with Garibaldi stabbing Sheridan in the back and then getting stabbed himself is quite symetrical.
"Darkness" how many times is poor Garibaldi going to get it in the back? The recap is right, the irony with Garibaldi stabbing Sheridan in the back and then getting stabbed himself is quite symetrical.
02-06-04 | 05:50 AM
#205
Thread Starter
DVD Talk Legend
Today's Episode: "Endgame"
Sheridan's forces make their final strike. Marcus weighs a vital decision.
The formation of the assault team on Mars was planned oddly; all the top-ranking people were together in a single group (Garibaldi, Number One, Lyta, and Franklin,) which would have been disastrous if they'd failed to take over the outpost. However, it's not an arrangement without merit: Franklin and Lyta obviously had to be together for him to hook her up to the device, and Number One probably wanted to keep an eye on both Garibaldi and Lyta.
After her bad treatment at the hands of Sheridan and company, treatment which forced her to reassociate herself with the Psi Corps ("The Exercise of Vital Powers,") Lyta was surprisingly willing to put herself on the line yet again. Has her arrangement with Bester made her comfortable enough to set aside her past annoyance with Sheridan and the B5 crew, or does she simply believe so strongly in the cause that she's willing to disregard personal considerations?
How did the Senator know so quickly what Clark had done, and how much damage the particle beams could cause Earth? One possible answer to the second question is that the potential danger to Earth might have been discussed in the Senate, for example while debating funding of the defense platforms. And perhaps the control panels on Clark's desk made it obvious that he'd turned the defense platforms against Earth, though the implication is that she guessed his plan simply from the words "scorched earth."
After her bad treatment at the hands of Sheridan and company, treatment which forced her to reassociate herself with the Psi Corps ("The Exercise of Vital Powers,") Lyta was surprisingly willing to put herself on the line yet again. Has her arrangement with Bester made her comfortable enough to set aside her past annoyance with Sheridan and the B5 crew, or does she simply believe so strongly in the cause that she's willing to disregard personal considerations?
How did the Senator know so quickly what Clark had done, and how much damage the particle beams could cause Earth? One possible answer to the second question is that the potential danger to Earth might have been discussed in the Senate, for example while debating funding of the defense platforms. And perhaps the control panels on Clark's desk made it obvious that he'd turned the defense platforms against Earth, though the implication is that she guessed his plan simply from the words "scorched earth."
02-06-04 | 12:16 PM
#207
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by Josh-da-man
And the latest from JMS of rastb5mod ---
There has been rampant speculation as to what the letters in TMoS actually mean. And then JMS comes in and says that one of them was right!
Of the posted titles that sound most credible, I'd say that we'll be seeing one of these in the near future:
The Migration of Souls
The Memory of Shadows
The Movement of Shadows
The Mark of Shadows
The Making of Shadows
The Memory of Sheridan
The Murder of Shiv'kala
The Martyrdom of Sinclair
The Mystery of Souls
The Movement of Starlight
And the latest from JMS of rastb5mod ---
There has been rampant speculation as to what the letters in TMoS actually mean. And then JMS comes in and says that one of them was right!
Of the posted titles that sound most credible, I'd say that we'll be seeing one of these in the near future:
The Migration of Souls
The Memory of Shadows
The Movement of Shadows
The Mark of Shadows
The Making of Shadows
The Memory of Sheridan
The Murder of Shiv'kala
The Martyrdom of Sinclair
The Mystery of Souls
The Movement of Starlight
The Mind of Straczynski
The Marriages of Sheridan
The Mutation of Sinclair
Twenty Minbari Order Sandwiches
...and my favorite.... The Mammaries of Susan
02-09-04 | 06:01 AM
#209
Thread Starter
DVD Talk Legend
Today's Episode: "Rising Star"
Earthgov decides Sheridan's fate. Delenn makes a remarkable proposition to the League of Non-Aligned Worlds. Garibaldi searches for Lise.
Delenn's reply to Lennier's comment about unrequited love can be read either of two ways: that she is indeed oblivious to his feelings for her ("Ceremonies of Light and Dark") or, more likely, that she loves him too, albeit not in the same way she does Sheridan. The latter interpretation seems to have been lost on Lennier if true.
Sheridan knew about the telepath virus ("The Face of the Enemy," among others.) How many more have been told? Will its existence become common knowledge, and if so, will the fact that it's known to be possible prompt enemies of the Corps to start trying to duplicate it?
The Alliance was most likely what Delenn was referring to in "War Without End part 2" when she told Sheridan that they'd built something that would endure for a thousand years. Whether that figure was just a generality on her part or reflected additional knowledge about the future isn't clear.
Sheridan and Londo have followed similar paths: both of them rose up against their own governments to fight Shadow influence, and both were helped in their quests by resistance movements working against those governments (the Mars resistance in Sheridan's case, the Narns in Londo's.) Both of them arranged to have the captive populations freed after defeating the old order. Are their fates going to be similar as well? Londo sacrificed himself to kill his Keeper and allow Sheridan and Delenn to escape ("War Without End part 2.") Will Sheridan make a similar sacrifice to save someone? One could argue he already has, by dying on Z'ha'dum to save Centauri Prime ("Z'ha'dum.")
Has Babylon 5 reverted to Earth ownership? If so, who's in command now that Sheridan is no longer a member of Earthforce? Presumably Corwin is in charge temporarily until a new commander is assigned.
Sheridan knew about the telepath virus ("The Face of the Enemy," among others.) How many more have been told? Will its existence become common knowledge, and if so, will the fact that it's known to be possible prompt enemies of the Corps to start trying to duplicate it?
The Alliance was most likely what Delenn was referring to in "War Without End part 2" when she told Sheridan that they'd built something that would endure for a thousand years. Whether that figure was just a generality on her part or reflected additional knowledge about the future isn't clear.
Sheridan and Londo have followed similar paths: both of them rose up against their own governments to fight Shadow influence, and both were helped in their quests by resistance movements working against those governments (the Mars resistance in Sheridan's case, the Narns in Londo's.) Both of them arranged to have the captive populations freed after defeating the old order. Are their fates going to be similar as well? Londo sacrificed himself to kill his Keeper and allow Sheridan and Delenn to escape ("War Without End part 2.") Will Sheridan make a similar sacrifice to save someone? One could argue he already has, by dying on Z'ha'dum to save Centauri Prime ("Z'ha'dum.")
Has Babylon 5 reverted to Earth ownership? If so, who's in command now that Sheridan is no longer a member of Earthforce? Presumably Corwin is in charge temporarily until a new commander is assigned.
02-10-04 | 05:58 AM
#210
Thread Starter
DVD Talk Legend
Today's Episode: "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars"
Fourth season finale. A look back at the impact of Babylon 5 from 100, 500, 1000, and 1000000 years in the future.
Though the implication was that the gunshot at the end of the video clip in 2362 was directed at Garibaldi, that's not certain. It could as easily have been someone else firing at one of his captors to prevent his death.
The 2362 historians' interpretation of the outcome of Sheridan allowing telepaths to set up a colony of Babylon 5 -- the worst mistake of his career, they claimed he as much as said -- may have been shaded by their less than charitable views about Sheridan. The actual events may have been much less disastrous than they implied.
It's possible Delenn's appearance in 2362 wasn't entirely a coincidence. The moderator appeared to be sympathetic to her point of view (though he could have just been playing devil's advocate to spark discussion) and may have warned her of the upcoming broadcast and its likely tone.
The Ranger's parting line, "This is how the world ends. Swallowed in fire, but not in darkness," echoes Kosh's reply to Emperor Turhan ("The Coming of Shadows") that the situation would end in fire.
One other event was predicted to occur in a million years: it's when Jason Ironheart said he'd see Sinclair again ("Mind War.") Coincidence, or does Ironheart (or Sinclair) play some part in whatever is happening in the distant future? The Ranger appeared to be noncorporeal, implying perhaps that the rest of humanity took a million years to catch up to Ironheart's level of development.
The 2362 historians' interpretation of the outcome of Sheridan allowing telepaths to set up a colony of Babylon 5 -- the worst mistake of his career, they claimed he as much as said -- may have been shaded by their less than charitable views about Sheridan. The actual events may have been much less disastrous than they implied.
It's possible Delenn's appearance in 2362 wasn't entirely a coincidence. The moderator appeared to be sympathetic to her point of view (though he could have just been playing devil's advocate to spark discussion) and may have warned her of the upcoming broadcast and its likely tone.
The Ranger's parting line, "This is how the world ends. Swallowed in fire, but not in darkness," echoes Kosh's reply to Emperor Turhan ("The Coming of Shadows") that the situation would end in fire.
One other event was predicted to occur in a million years: it's when Jason Ironheart said he'd see Sinclair again ("Mind War.") Coincidence, or does Ironheart (or Sinclair) play some part in whatever is happening in the distant future? The Ranger appeared to be noncorporeal, implying perhaps that the rest of humanity took a million years to catch up to Ironheart's level of development.
02-10-04 | 06:23 AM
#211
DVD Talk Limited Edition
It pleased me after watching this episode on DVD to finally get "The Canicle for Leibowitz" homage in the episode (I hadn't read the book until last semester).
02-10-04 | 11:28 AM
#212
DVD Talk Legend
You don't see many series try something liek Deconstruction of Falling Stars - it was a very interesting take on the whole timeline.
02-12-04 | 08:09 PM
#214
DVD Talk Gold Edition
One of the cool bits about Deconstruction I didn't see the very first time was that the human ship from a million years on has a Ranger logo on it.
Man, and I thought the Kiwanis had been around a while.
Man, and I thought the Kiwanis had been around a while.
02-12-04 | 09:39 PM
#215
I watched this episode and wondered how they could even make a Season 5. I liked it, but it frustrated me to think that things like that could happen, but then I guess that was the point. The commentary for the episode was pretty good, but of course it has spoilers for the next season.
02-12-04 | 10:17 PM
#216
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From: wishing I was in Vegas
I haven’t gotten as far as the commentaries.
I’m not sure I like being sensitive to spoilers, a habit I picked up here. The TV “establishment” doesn’t seem to give a damn.
“You won’t believe the ending to next week’s ER. Here, let’s show you…”
I'm driving home from work, and the sports guy on the news radio program tells the results of today's NASCAR races, which are waiting patiently for me in my Tivo. That guy never talks about car races unless someone gets killed.
I’m not sure I like being sensitive to spoilers, a habit I picked up here. The TV “establishment” doesn’t seem to give a damn.
“You won’t believe the ending to next week’s ER. Here, let’s show you…”
I'm driving home from work, and the sports guy on the news radio program tells the results of today's NASCAR races, which are waiting patiently for me in my Tivo. That guy never talks about car races unless someone gets killed.
02-14-04 | 12:27 AM
#218
Originally posted by Seeker
Other than Sleeping in Light (of course), how many people think Stracynzski should have stopped right here?
Other than Sleeping in Light (of course), how many people think Stracynzski should have stopped right here?
02-14-04 | 04:38 AM
#219
DVD Talk Hero
Originally posted by Seeker
Other than Sleeping in Light (of course), how many people think Stracynzski should have stopped right here?
Other than Sleeping in Light (of course), how many people think Stracynzski should have stopped right here?
But I do have some problems with the structure of the series as a whole, namely ending the Shadow War when it was ended.
While JMS says that the series was about more than the Shadow War, that was still the dramatic high point of the series. After "Into the Fire," the most interesting aspect of the series was wrapped up, and with it went much of the mystery. After that, we pretty much knew how the rest of the series would shake out.
What I probably would've done is to have switched the Earth Liberation and Shadow War around. I would've had Sheridan return from Z'Ha'Dum, and immediately begin building an alliance, and then liberating Earth, with the Vorlons and Shadows both growing uneasy with Sheridan's independent streak. I also would've folded the S5 telepath arc into the fourth season. Having Sheridan away fighting the war against Earth would've been a good time to have Ivanova running the station and allowing the teeps to set up a colony. If that was done, then Marcus would've had to have been killed a little earlier (preferably by the Vorlons) so she could be meeting Byron at a time when she was vulnerable. And finally, I would've ended the fourth season with "Intersections in Real Time." (Not a spoiler because Ivanova never met Byron in the produced storyline, even though that was the plan.)
I then would've picked put the Earth Liberation (three or so eps) into the beginning of S5, and then had a politically strengthened Sheridan finally lead the various younger races stand up against the Shadows and Vorlons, as seen in "Into the Fire." And then had most of the rest of the fifth season arc as it was.
As the series stands, too much seemingly happened too quickly in the span of the first six episodes of S4, and then with a season and a half of denouement.
02-14-04 | 03:44 PM
#220
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Remember that "Sleeping in Light" was filmed at the end of season 4, so it would have aired even if there wasn't a fifth season.
It sat on the shelf for over a year after it was done filming. The toughest spoiler decision I ever made was reading the script for it a year before it aired, because I had a friend who had a copy of the script.
It sat on the shelf for over a year after it was done filming. The toughest spoiler decision I ever made was reading the script for it a year before it aired, because I had a friend who had a copy of the script.
02-14-04 | 08:53 PM
#221
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Josh-da-man: I don't think your way would have worked as well. Thou I do agree seaon 4 seemed very rushed. With the Shadows gone and Clark getting more paranoid made for much better flow. It also gave credibility to embargo and bombing of Proxima which caused Sheridan to take stronger measures.
