[Hijack]That's an awesome signature.[/Hijack]

Alright. That went a bit too far for my tastes..but at the same time..when it didn't..it was fucking funny as shit.

Down due to copyright claim

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Watching it on Blu-ray again, and here's a question. What does Batman actually accomplish in the first half of the movie? He shows up, stops some guys on motorcycles (but not Bane), prevents the cops from going after Bane just by being there and distracting them. Then he punches some more dudes, saves Catwoman, punches some more dudes, and gets his ass kicked by Bane. What is the point of having him in the movie for the first half?

Also, I think it was a mistake to make Bane work for Talia. The movie almost said something interesting about economics in America, and then turned it into a case of majorly overdoing a vendetta against one guy.

you're dead inside!

I think those segments are showing how much Bruce still needs Batman. Alfred mentions several times about how he's refused to have a real life and is just waiting around until Batman is needed again. Bruce doesn't really accomplish anything because it's simply about him needing a purpose at this point in his life, and Bane gives him one when he comes to Gotham.

As far as letting Bane go, it's similar to the part in the Dark Knight where he chooses to go after the mob instead of the Joker, it's about the bigger picture. Bane gets away, but Batman needs to stop the hacking device from completing it's task, and rescue the remaining hostage. He can always catch Bane later, but right now those other two things are the priority.

I see Bane as working with Talia, not for her; but I agree that the motivations of the villains in this movie aren't as compelling as the Joker's "philosophy." Still, it was about more than just revenge. They are fulfilling the plan of Ras Al Ghul to destroy Gotham because of it's decadence and corruption, but Bruce killing Talia's father was simply the catalyst of that plan. Remember, Bane never really seeks out Batman for personal reasons, they actually spend more time going after Bruce Wayne because they need his fusion reactor to make their bomb. They use his resources, but it's Batman that foolishly goes after Bane when he's not ready.

Well wasn't his thing to find out who Bane was and see wtf he was actually doing? I don't have the film yet..but that's what I remember. Bane coming into the picture kind of forces him to come out.

Alfred makes a point that Gotham needs his resources more than his body. He's suggesting that he become a hero with a face, like Harvey Dent instead of sacrificing his life for Gotham.

That's a fair point, but I think it would have been better illustrated if the reason Bruce was a physical wreck is because he never stopped. If he were single-mindedly beating down on drug dealers and other criminals, he'd take a beating but he'd still be "soft" compared to Bane, who is a hardened killer forged in the pit.

Another interesting thing could have been that the cops never stopped looking for Batman as he does these things. Gordon's been a little slack on it, but hotshot cops looking to make a name for themselves do try to go after the Bat, so he doesn't even think about it when Bane shows up and he distracts them.

I just think there were better ways to go about it.

I wasn't blaming him for not going after Bane directly. He probably didn't even know which one Bane was since they were all wearing helmets. My point was that his appearance accomplished nothing. He didn't stop the hack. He didn't stop Bane. He prevented the cops from stopping the hack or catching Bane.

Yes, but making her the mastermind makes it feel more like a personal vendetta than an ideological thing.

I think his injuries are totally reasonable considering what he went through in The Dark Knight. At the end he is stabbed, beaten with a pipe, shot, and falls from a height that killed Harvey Dent. I hurt my ankle after running up stairs too recklessly.

Fair enough, that certainly could have been interesting. I really like the sequence as it exists though. It looks really great on BluRay and I tend to just fall in love with the IMAX footage, I dig the use of lighting and the way each of the lights go out after he uses the EMP gun. I know I'm really addressing the way it's shot over the logic behind it, but because I enjoyed it I never really had to think about ways they might have done it better. I also think it was a way to pay homage to The Dark Knight Returns.



Ah I gotcha. He did manage to rescue the hostage! Didn't they shoot one of the hostages when they tossed them off of the bike? It was Foley that diverted all units off of Bane and onto Batman, which maybe he should have suspected would happen, I don't know. Blake wanted to continue to pursue Bane, and I assume other units would have if not for Foley. But anyway Bruce knows the cops can't stop the hack or Bane, he says as much to Alfred later in the Batcave. They don't have the resources, that's when Alfred suggested he help Gotham with his resources instead of his body.

I don't see why Batman's failure would bother you, it's only the first act and he's been failing consistently throughout the entire trilogy, he screws up often and it's one of my favorite aspects of these movies. He completely botched his first encounter with the Scarecrow where he is gassed and set on fire. When Ras Al Ghul raids his home he gets overpowered and knocked unconscious by falling debris, Alfred has to come save him. In The Dark Knight he underestimates the Joker and chooses to ignore him as he goes after the mob. Gordon saves his ass from the Joker after he crashes the batpod. The Joker pretty much owns him at every turn and he loses his cool as he commits "vigilante brutality" during the interrogation. He fails to save Rachel. He screws up just as much as he succeeds.

Perhaps, the problem with the Talia twist is that she feels so underdeveloped and so her motivations seem really vague. However, when re-watching the film and listening closely to her dialogue, she seems to be spouting off the same exact dogma and radical philosophies that Ras Al Ghul says in the first film. I'd say all of her talk about restoring balance to the world implies how important the ideology is to her. I mean her plan involves sacrificing her life. Personal revenge is one thing but I don't see her being willing to die for it, but restoring balance to the world...

I'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to say here. We already saw the physical toll Bruce was taking while beating down on drug dealers and other criminals in the previous film. And it culminated with his multi-story fall at the end of The Dark Knight. That's why he's a physical wreck at the beginning of Rises.

As far as I can tell, what you're suggesting would be incongruous with the end of The Dark Knight. Batman had to go into hiding after taking the blame for Dent's actions and also had to recover as much as possible from the fall. He was looking for a way out for Batman and he got it. Why would he have still been putting on the suit and beating on criminals after that?

He took out multiple henchmen. He freed hostages. He recovered the hard drive. He did nothing to hinder the cops: a) they wouldn't have stopped the hack or caught Bane either regardless and b) the cops made the choice to go after Batman rather than Bane. It's disingenuous to say that his appearance accomplished nothing. The fact that everything wasn't wrapped up in a nice bow is indicative of Batman having to shake the rust off after his hiatus.

I have no argument with the weak motivation of the villains.

I disagree with that interpretation of the ending. I always took it to mean that Batman would now be more of a freelance vigilante, less tied to the police, and able to strike more fear into criminals because they think that he has no rules. I always took that as the point. Earlier in the film when Maroni says "You've got rules, The Joker has none," I always took it to mean that Batman was scary but not scary enough. By taking the blame for killing cops and Dent, Batman made himself a real rogue character again.

I was taken completely by surprise (and not in a good way) when TDKR started and I found out that Bruce Wayne had gone sulking for almost a decade.

The flick is still based on a comic book.

Your interpretation ignores a lot of what was going on in The Dark Knight though. Bruce makes it very clear that he wants to stop being Batman and he believes that he won't have to if Dent can stop the corruption and clean up the streets. If the truth of Dent's murderous rampage came out, it would destroy everything Batman and Dent had been working toward. The dialog between Batman and Gordon at the end is telling. Batman doesn't say he's going to take the fall so that he can seem even more scary to criminals. He says, "Sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded." The whole point is to preserve Dent's legacy so that Batman is no longer needed.

I had the same thought. Batman's job would become easier if everyone including the criminals hated and feared him. He would no longer have to deal with chubby copycat vigilantes either. Him terrorizing the underworld while at the same time trying to avoid being captured by the cops would have been an interesting angle to explore.

But whatever reason people choose to give for him hanging up the cape for 8 years is of less importance than the fact that he did it. He sat in his room and pouted for nearly a decade. Like a depressed teenage girl. Thats not how Bruce Wayne deals with tragedy.

Aren't the Dark Knight films praised as being more than just comic book movies? Nolan could have taken the movie wherever he wanted and the audience would have followed.

I always thought that Wayne's intention to hang up the cape and cowl was dependent on Harvey Dent staying alive to carry on the fight. The Dent Act is hilariously simplistic. As we all know one law is enough to change all the corruption in a major metropolitan city.

Don't forget the Rachel aspect. He was going to give up Batman for her AND if Dent was alive and doing the job for him. Rachel's death played a big role in his isolation. I agree that the 8 year stretch is far too long. Maybe 1 year would have been better. Like Honest Trailer said, he was Batman for maybe a year and a half total.

I would have also preferred him still active as Batman in the beginning, hunting criminals while the police hunt him. And Bane/No Mans Land forces them to work together.

Wow, I had a totally different interpretation of TDK's ending.

Yes, but consider the source material. As "real" as they may come off in certain aspects, it's still about a guy running around in a bat costume. Can't get too far off of the point. Even Nolan in a most recent interview made mention about how the films are still fantasy with bits of reality thrown in there to ground them, but they're still a preposterous fantasy.

Another forum member already said it best. Batman took the blame for killing Harvey Dent, because if he hadn't all of the past case work involving Dent would have been overthrown and every criminal Dent put away would be set free due to Dent becoming Two-Face and going on a killing spree. Batman took the blame and had to continue being on the run. Granted, he hung up the cape for about 8 years, but that's how it goes.

I wouldn't state it that way. It was dependent on the corruption and rampant crime being cleaned up so that Batman was no longer needed. In Nolan's universe, that was Batman's goal from the first time he put on the cowl. Dent and his crusade against organized crime presented a real opportunity for Batman to no longer be needed.

I don't disagree that the Dent Act notion is a little flimsy, but recall what happened in the Dark Knight. Dent had already taken down the mob before he died. Part of Batman taking the blame for his murders was to ensure that all the charges would stick on the crime bosses that were arrested. Remember Gordon's dialog to Batman near the end of the film:
Harvey's prosecution, everything he fought for, everything Rachel died for. Undone. Whatever chance Gotham had of fixing itself... whatever chance you gave us of fixing our city... dies with Harvey's reputation. We bet it all on him. The Joker took the best of us and tore him down. People will lose all hope.

Most of the heavy lifting to clean up the corrupt hold that organized crime had on the city was accomplished by Dent in The Dark Knight. The Dent Act didn't change the corruption, it just kept it from re-emerging after Dent's mob prosecutions changed it.

The Dark Knight Trilogy: Full Circle

Great photo comparison of events, shots and traits across the films:

http://imgur.com/a/3EpQo

Was thinking about Bane and Talia... Talia was born in the prison, so she never met her father? Bane was with the League of Shadows before the prison and they excomm'd him, then he escapes the prison and just goes back to the League of Shadows?

Talia was born in the prison and obviously with her mother's knowledge she went to her father.

With Talia's mother now gone, Ra's was free to storm the prison and got Bane out (Talia's protector) in the process of getting revenge on his wife's killers. Bane never escaped - we see that AND Bane admitted as much. He joined the League, THEN got ex-communicated by Ra's. She never forgave Ra's for throwing Bane out of the League, and then when she finds out how he died, forgives him and together with Bane decides to fulfill Ra's plans, since it takes care of his original destiny for Gotham as well as gets rid of his supposed killer / Gotham's savior.

OK, thanks. I had thought they escaped together.