Untrue. Wertz, Maroni, Maroni's bodyguard, Maroni's driver, and posibly Ramirez (you just see her get hit but she's never heard from again) are all killed by Dent before Batman tells Gordon where the Joker is holed up. Also, the cops only knew there was a situation where Gordon was located. They didn't know who or what. They could have easily pinned the murder on the Joker by saying it was one of his clowns and that the assailant evaded capture.

Except for the utterly ridiculous microwave emitter, not really.

Also, Batman Begins is a much tighter package than TDKR. It didn't leave many loose ends.

But when I talk about raising the bar, I mean it's one of the first superhero movies to really focus on the protagonist. So many superhero films are about the villain. It was certainly the first Batman movie to focus on Bruce Wayne first. It gave him not just an origin, but a methodology, a real reason to do what he does. This is different than Superman fighting for truth, justice, and the American way. While I adore Superman: The Movie, it never really delves into the psychology of the character. Begins does do that, and it does it incredibly well.

That's why I love it so much. It is frustrating that people just focus on TDK and the Joker so much. I loved TDK but it has clouded so many people's view that they don't know that Begins even exists or they forget about that movie altogether. Which is a shame. And yes I do know people who haven't seen or don't even know BB exists.

Oh come on, really?

Plotholes in Batman Begins:

The ridiculous microwave emitter, which RocShemp of course, ignores. OK, so ignoring the most ridiculous element in the entire movie series (how convienient), what do we have?

The league of shadows had the perfect plan to destroy Gotham. By sneaking-in a toxin in the water supplies for weeks before revealing their machine and its purpose, their tactical supremacy was everything but challenged. That is.... unless a single person out of the millions of Gothamers used boiled water in the past few months. But what are the odds of any of them taking daily showers and cooking food ? Exactly. None.

There are tens of millions of people in Gotham. How many of those people, per day would vaporize their water? For cooking, baths, showers or just a plain old need for hot water? You don't need microwaves to vaporize water, people do that all the time and there is no way in a city as big as Gotham that nobody went crazy or didn't notice anyone going crazy for weeks. There would be an epidemic, reports would come in every minute. And yet not until the magic microwave emitter comes along does water turn into steam.

What happened to that fucking monorail? TDK happens roughly no more than one year later and yet, Wayne tower is gone and there is no sign of that destroyed monorail that snaked through the city. Wow, construction in Gotham sure works fast!

Nevermind the fact that the whole city seems to have changed, and that the slums appear to be gone entirely.

Bruce refused to execute the prisoner in the monastery, but then he proceeded to blow up the entire monastery, no doubt killing all League members inside, AND the prisoner he initially refused to kill. Way to go, Batman.

Why does everyone in Gotham get less clever as time goes on? The citizens of Gotham sure had their cheesy one-liners prepared in BB, for seemingly every possible scene or situation, but in TDK and TDKR nary a witty comeuppance was uttered by anyone not named Bruce, Selina or Lucius. What happened, Gotham? Why so serious?

I can't argue with you here, though. I have the feeling that if Goyer had been removed from the script-writing equation entirely, I'd have a much better opinion of BB. His shitty, joke-ridden script just rubs me the wrong way.

Really?

Hmm. How is my acknowledging how utterly ridiculous that plot device is the same as ignoring it?

And did you forget that Ra's said "you're defending a city so corrupt that we've infiltrated every level of its infrastructure"? Or do you think it's not handy to have cops, dock workers, and the head of Arkham Asylum in your pocket? Anyone who happened to be affected by the toxin could be labeled crazy by Crane. Any people willing to question that would simply join the DA (who got killed by a cop for investigating what he assumed was one of Falcone's shipping crates).

So now a huge continuity leap/error in TDK is the fault of BB? Are you even reading what you're posting?

At this point Bruce is flying by the seat of his pants. So I can forgive him for not thinking things through. Sadly, the film does fail to have him acknowledge this.

Hate to break it to you but Goyer had first draft duties in all three of these films (including your beloved TDKR). And his draft of Batman Begins (which I can send to you if you like) is far more serious and dry than the finished draft Nolan wrote and used while shooting the film (although the basic gist is pretty much the same).

Sure. I'd like to see his draft of BB.

I'd be interested as well...

Prometheus had the same issue in many instances, and the same defense was used by those who went in determined to love it.

It reminds me of the old "Check your brain at the door!" line that people used to throw out. No thanks, I'll hold onto it.

BATMAN BEGINS created an alternate universe Gotham that wasn't grounded in the real world. It created its own world, so it was easier to suspend disbelief. TDK and TDKR are grounded in real world settings (Chicago/New York) and want you to believe everything that's happening even when it's wildly implausible and illogical. I'm sorry, but when you raise the bar of realism, your writing has to reflect that and it just didn't in these movies. When I don't believe something, I lose interest right away, which happened very quickly for me with TDKR.

Agree that BB was much more fantastical than TDKR.

Along with the aforementioned boiling issue, I would also add:

• Wouldn't there be about 50 less contrived ways to dissiminate the fear toxin, starting with airplanes or helicopters?
  
• Considering people are mostly water, how were they not exploding all along the monorail path?
  
• Batman has an air freshener in his shoe that apparently creates a crazy swarm of bats in about 14 seconds...a hell of a weapon/distraction that he apparently never uses again.
  
• Throughout the movies, how realistic is it to think that Fox is the only one who worked on the tumbler, the pod or the Bat and that no subcontractor, technician or military customer would recognize them?
  
• I'm guessing the tumbler would weigh upwards of 3-4 tons. Driving on rooftops would likely not go well.

But really, why pick these kinds of movies apart on this level unless you just don't want to enjoy them???

I enjoy picking them apart just to watch the fanboys get all riled up. It is hard not to enjoy it when people start comparing the films to the Godfather and mentioning how cerebral they are.

So you're a troll then. Good job, I guess.

Most predictable post of the day. It has all the keyword elements: fanboy, cerebral, Godfather. You need to add overrated and a few other lame keywords to make it complete.

I think the biggest problem with Batman Begins was that they never explained how the microwave emitter turned Rachel into a bulldog face.

I don't know. It's not all that common that someone just comes out and announces that they are a douche.

I applaud his forthrightness.

But sometimes fanboys make a good point.

Number 4) I can explain and it will make sense. O.k., why would thugs want to stay with Bane when it looks like there is no money or reward in it for them. It looks like the writers took a page from terrorists groups like Bin Ladin and Hamas. That group are not in it for the money.

"They expect one of us in the wreckage brother."
"Did we start the fire?"
"Yes Brother! The fire rises!"

These guys are believers, likely in the "back to the people" cause espoused by Bane at the stadium. The chilling part is that Bane is playing them along with everybody else.

Michael Corleone: I saw a strange thing today. Some rebels were being arrested. One of them pulled the pin on a grenade. He took himself and the captain of the command with him. Now, soldiers are paid to fight; the rebels aren't.
Hyman Roth: What does that tell you?
Michael Corleone: They could win.

(Somehow I don't think bootsy will get too annoyed with this Godfather 2 reference)

By the slums you mean the Narrows, which was the nickname for that bad neighborhood?

Gordon has a line near the end of BB to Batman (paraphrased) that "The Narrows are gone." which seems to suggest the slums were beyond repair/unsalvageable and were either cordoned off or - like the monorail - torn down.

If you point out valid criticisms of the films you get labled a troll so why not just go with it?

Troll (noun): In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

To be honest, I only have a vague idea of why Islamic terrorists do what they do, i.e., their cause or what they really want, other than something along the lines of the destruction of Israel and the imposition of Shariah Law in their assorted countries and/or the rest of the world. That and the belief that 72 virgins await them in the next life if they martyr themselves. That's a bizarre belief, but if you really believe it, I can see how that might be a big motivator, or at least take the edge off the inevitable result of strapping a bomb on yourself.

But in the movie I never got why Bane's thugs were willing to die. What exactly was their cause? What was their "religion," so to speak? If they got blown up by the nuke, there wouldn't be any 72 virgins waiting for them, just a guy with a red suit and a pitchfork. Bane made a lot of speeches, but I didn't really understand them. (That friggin' mask.) And they didn't seem to offer anything to convince a bunch of criminals to want to die for him. I thought that whole thing was handled much better in PUNISHER WAR ZONE.

Wow this definition really settles things. Thanks for that.

I like how this definition fails to attribute any accountability to the "trollee" for that "emotional response" (an EMOTIONAL RESPONSE, over movies/music/video game etc.) and also seems to imply that "normal on-topic discussion" is inherently positive and favorable.

So yeah, it'll take more than a simple cut-and-paste from Wikipedia or whatever to dismiss Nolan's ever-growing group of critics.

Ain't that the truth.