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Old 05-15-08 | 06:21 PM
  #226  
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Originally Posted by Josh Z
Here's the problem. Giving it another year will be too late. The studios need to change their release and marketing strategies right now if they expect things to turn around by the end of the year. If they sit on their hands and say, "Oh we'll just wait and see how it plays out this holiday season", they're going to find not much changed. And without a dramatic increase in sales, they'll drop their output next year in response.
Who has even implied that the studios are sitting on their hands (other than the despairing, doom-and-gloom posters)? Just because you don't see evidence that plans are in progress, doesn't mean that there are no plans in progress. We're not trying to say that the studios should just "wait and see". We're saying that we, as consumers, should wait and see what they may already be planning for the holiday season and beyond, before jumping to any conclusions.

No offense, but I would trust the judgment of people who are actually skilled at (and paid for) making and executing these plans over the judgment of the average Internet forum poster. If anyone here really believes they can do a better job of marketing the product and advancing the format, then by all means, send your resume to one of the studios, hardware manufacturers, or the BDA.

Last edited by RoboDad; 05-15-08 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 05-15-08 | 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by RoboDad
Who has even implied that the studios are sitting on their hands (other than the despairing, doom-and-gloom posters)? Just because you don't see evidence that plans are in progress, doesn't mean that there are no plans in progress. We're not trying to say that the studios should just "wait and see". We're saying that we, as consumers, should wait and see what they may already be planning for the holiday season and beyond, before jumping to any conclusions.

No offense, but I would trust the judgment of people who are actually skilled at (and paid for) making and executing these plans over the judgment of the average Internet forum poster. If anyone here really believes they can do a better job of marketing the product and advancing the format, then by all means, send your resume to one of the studios, hardware manufacturers, or the BDA.
Why can't a person express their viewpoint without being told, in so many words, to go shove it or go work for a studio? I mean cmon, just because you don't like his analysis of the numbers doesn't mean he should be told to shut the fuck up or go work for a studio. Seriously. You can agree or disagree with his analysis, but I don't think he has ever said what he says is the "truth"
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Old 05-15-08 | 10:12 PM
  #228  
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Originally Posted by Josh Z
It just seems like nobody ever buys it, in relative terms. There are still way more people buying the absolute bottom-of-the-barrel crap on DVD than buy even the prestige titles on Blu-ray.
Didn't someone just post a stat, that the best selling BR of last week was #11 of DVD + BR sales? (In response to someone claiming 500 DVD's sold better than the best selling BR)
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Old 05-15-08 | 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by chanster
Why can't a person express their viewpoint without being told, in so many words, to go shove it or go work for a studio? I mean cmon, just because you don't like his analysis of the numbers doesn't mean he should be told to shut the fuck up or go work for a studio. Seriously. You can agree or disagree with his analysis, but I don't think he has ever said what he says is the "truth"
First, I don't recall using anything even approaching the level of crass rudeness you ascribed to me there. I certainly didn't resort to using common vulgarity.

And, as to whether or not anyone's "analysis" should be allowed, I also don't recall even suggesting that his, or anyone's should be censored or silenced. But there has been a tone in this thread that anyone who doesn't accept the doom-and-gloom "analysis" as fact is nothing more than a blind fanboy, using "talking points".

So, if you want opinions to be respected, then offer respect for others' first.
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Old 05-15-08 | 11:00 PM
  #230  
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And I thought the format war was the absolute worst bickering we would get.
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Old 05-15-08 | 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by RoboDad
First, I don't recall using anything even approaching the level of crass rudeness you ascribed to me there. I certainly didn't resort to using common vulgarity.

And, as to whether or not anyone's "analysis" should be allowed, I also don't recall even suggesting that his, or anyone's should be censored or silenced. But there has been a tone in this thread that anyone who doesn't accept the doom-and-gloom "analysis" as fact is nothing more than a blind fanboy, using "talking points".

So, if you want opinions to be respected, then offer respect for others' first.
The only analysis I see in this thread from Josh Z is that if the current numbers stay as they are for the foreseeable future that is a problem for HDM optical media.

I don't think anybody called anyone a blind fanboy, but that is a nice straw man argument. I think its pretty ignorant to attack Josh Z; considering his well publicizied views about the "niche" status of HDM

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news...the_Niche/1154

Actually I think that Josh hit right on the head back in November, a good 6 months before mainstream analysts have said the exact same thing when interpreting the latest round of media/hardware sales:

The problem is that this argument just doesn't ring true. While the format war has undoubtedly created some measure of concern and reluctance in the marketplace, it is simply not the biggest impediment to High Definition adoption. The real roadblock is consumer apathy. By and large, most people out there are happy with their DVD players, and don't understand all the fuss about High Definition. A significant number of them believe that DVDs are already High Definition and have no concept of why they should buy a new player for discs in different packaging. Yes, it's true that sales of HDTVs have soared over the last few years, but that has more to do with the size of the sets than anything else. Most people are impressed by a big screen, not the resolution or picture quality.
November 9, 2007

So you can go ahead and attack him for stating his views, but I think he has a good head on his shoulders about HDM. Telling him that his opinion doesn't matter, that he doesn't know better than paid marketing folks is just bunk.

Last edited by chanster; 05-15-08 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 05-15-08 | 11:51 PM
  #232  
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Also Robodad, I find your comments in this thread very interesting, considering you claimed you used to be an "HD DVD Zealot" who changed his opinion and wanted the format war to end so you could see how Blu Ray would fare if there was only one format:

It's time to move on, and see whether the claims made by many in the industry that the war was slowing down peoples' adoption of HDM are really true. The only way to find that out is to all get behind one format and see what it can do.
So in January you really wanted to see how things shake out. Now in May, when people discuss those figures, you accuse them of being "doom and gloom" naysayers. Please.
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Old 05-16-08 | 12:11 AM
  #233  
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Originally Posted by chanster
Why can't a person express their viewpoint without being told, in so many words, to go shove it or go work for a studio? I mean cmon, just because you don't like his analysis of the numbers doesn't mean he should be told to shut the fuck up or go work for a studio. Seriously. You can agree or disagree with his analysis, but I don't think he has ever said what he says is the "truth"
I would love to read some answers. Feel free to respond to your own questions as well.

Pro-B
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Old 05-16-08 | 01:07 AM
  #234  
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Looks like we still have the same old tired arguments again and again. With the same people using the same material over and over again. When you can't refute numbers just tell people that the end is near. Like they say misery loves company.

It's plain as day that BD is picking up some steam no matter how you slice it. Grubert isn't making up these numbers as he's getting them from the same sources every other outlet uses.

Mr. Cinema pointed out something that people forget to mention that there are 130 Million DVD players out there. 130 Million, cientos treinta millones, cent trente millions, 130,000,000 if none of you understood. You simply can't make accurate comparisons of DVD against BD. You don't have to be a math wizard to understand this and anyone complaining about the percentages obviously should learn a thing or two.

The doom and gloomers (JoshZ, Qui Gon, Gizmo and a few others) continue their march to spread more FUD. I thought it had stopped but here we go again.

If you guys are such movie fans you'd be telling everyone you know to upgrade to BD, and not keep spouting this same shit. You obviously aren't the big movie fans as you claim to be.

We have two studios yet to release movies and have a huge slate of titles coming soon. From the Dark Knight to Iron Man, it's going to be a huge year as there isn't going to be a format war for people to worry about. There is going to be a huge jump during the Holiday season with sales during the year slowly picking up.

DVD was lucky that it picked up steam during the Internet boom and we all know how well that went for it. Talk about subsidizing with DVDs given away by the boat load. BD, unfortunately has to actually sell them which is what makes its adoption somewhat slower.

I want it to succeed so that we can get more stuff released, but spreading the doom and gloom to your friend this forum doesn't do a lot of good for our cause: which is to get HD movies with the best quality picture and sound.

Isn't that ultimately what we all want?

I certainly do not want to have to download high def movies that's the absolute last thing I want to do. Maybe in 10 years when it's more feasible but for now BD is all we have to give us the above.
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Old 05-16-08 | 02:10 AM
  #235  
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Originally Posted by chanster
The only analysis I see in this thread from Josh Z is that if the current numbers stay as they are for the foreseeable future that is a problem for HDM optical media.

I don't think anybody called anyone a blind fanboy, but that is a nice straw man argument. I think its pretty ignorant to attack Josh Z; considering his well publicizied views about the "niche" status of HDM

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news...the_Niche/1154

Actually I think that Josh hit right on the head back in November, a good 6 months before mainstream analysts have said the exact same thing when interpreting the latest round of media/hardware sales:

November 9, 2007

So you can go ahead and attack him for stating his views, but I think he has a good head on his shoulders about HDM. Telling him that his opinion doesn't matter, that he doesn't know better than paid marketing folks is just bunk.
Once again, you seem to be trying (rather unsuccessfully) to put words in my mouth and thoughts into my head. I never attacked any individual, Josh or anyone else. You, on the other hand...

Josh is perfectly entitled to his opinion, as are you. If you need my validation, then by all mean, you have it. But to say that anyone in this forum is better suited to be deciding the future of the Blu-ray format than the high level executives in the various Blu-ray affiliated companies is beyond laughable. I simply don't know how to respond to such comments.

And you should really try to understand the definition of a straw man before you go bandying it about as an attack phrase. I made no straw man. Yes, the actual word "fanboy" has not been used in this thread. Would "cowardly spinjobs" suit you better? Both carry the same derogatory tone.
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Old 05-16-08 | 02:21 AM
  #236  
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Originally Posted by chanster
Also Robodad, I find your comments in this thread very interesting, considering you claimed you used to be an "HD DVD Zealot" who changed his opinion and wanted the format war to end so you could see how Blu Ray would fare if there was only one format:



So in January you really wanted to see how things shake out. Now in May, when people discuss those figures, you accuse them of being "doom and gloom" naysayers. Please.
By your use of the word "claim", shall I assume you are insinuating that I lied? Would it suffice if I posted a picture of me alongside my HD-A1, the dated receipt of its purchase back in 2006, and the assortment of roughly 50 HD DVDs I have purchased since that time? Or the Microsoft XBox 360 add-on drive I purchased later? How about the HD-A3 I recently purchased during the fire sale? Please, do tell. What might it take to convince you of my sincerity? If the only way to do so is to join to anti-blu brigade, well, I'm afraid you'll just have to get used to disappointment.

But yes, I do want to see how things shake out. However, I am not so naive and short-sighted to think that sales activity in May 2008, especially with the public perception of a weak economy (justified or not), is even close to a valid barometer of what is to come. That is why I have suggested that we (not the studios, not the hardware manufacturers, not the BDA, but we, the armchair quarterbacks) might just wait a bit longer before formulating any conclusions about the health or future of the Blu-ray format.

Last edited by RoboDad; 05-16-08 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 05-16-08 | 02:39 AM
  #237  
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Originally Posted by RoboDad
Once again, you seem to be trying (rather unsuccessfully) to put words in my mouth and thoughts into my head. I never attacked any individual, Josh or anyone else. You, on the other hand...

Josh is perfectly entitled to his opinion, as are you. If you need my validation, then by all mean, you have it. But to say that anyone in this forum is better suited to be deciding the future of the Blu-ray format than the high level executives in the various Blu-ray affiliated companies is beyond laughable. I simply don't know how to respond to such comments.

And you should really try to understand the definition of a straw man before you go bandying it about as an attack phrase. I made no straw man. Yes, the actual word "fanboy" has not been used in this thread. Would "cowardly spinjobs" suit you better? Both carry the same derogatory tone.
Meh...I think Bill Hunt is still a member in here, he could do a good job at it. So could Grubert.
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Old 05-16-08 | 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by chanster
The only analysis I see in this thread from Josh Z is that if the current numbers stay as they are for the foreseeable future that is a problem for HDM optical media.

I don't think anybody called anyone a blind fanboy, but that is a nice straw man argument. I think its pretty ignorant to attack Josh Z; considering his well publicizied views about the "niche" status of HDM

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news...the_Niche/1154
I think Josh Z is actually attacking himself...

Originally Posted by Josh Z, November 2007
Loudmouth pundits will whine that the format war has been a miserable disaster that will doom High Definition to remain a niche, a scenario they want you to fear as the worst of all possible outcomes. That's a load of bunk and I don't buy it for a second. If the movies keep coming at reasonable prices (those who feel High-Def media prices are unreasonable clearly never bought a $125 Laserdisc "Special Edition"), why should anyone not specifically employed by one of these companies be upset that their format is just a niche? These products are meant to be enjoyed, not to have their weekly sales statistics scrutinized with ruthless obsession. Are we so insecure that we need mainstream popularity to validate our hobby? Are we in this because we love movies, or because we want to boast of owning the latest "hot" new toy?
Originally Posted by Josh Z, May 2008
We don't get a kick out of [low catalog sales]. We're frightened for what it means to the future of the format, and the future of High Definition media. If catalog titles don't sell, studios will stop releasing them. This is inevitable. Studios won't continue throwing money at a product that makes them no profit.


In a nutshell

While HD DVD was alive:
It doesn't matter if (because of the format war) high-definition discs remain a niche! There's nothing wrong with a niche! Don't worry about sales figures. If you do, you are an insecure person. Just buy and enjoy!

After HD DVD's death:
You should be worried about sales figures. You should be worried about the niche. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Last edited by Grubert; 05-16-08 at 03:02 AM.
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Old 05-16-08 | 06:14 AM
  #239  
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Originally Posted by chanster
The only analysis I see in this thread from Josh Z is that if the current numbers stay as they are for the foreseeable future that is a problem for HDM optical media.
Originally Posted by Grubert
Unit sales in Q1 2007 were 832,000. Unit sales in Q1 2008 were 3,800,000.


That's not considered growth?
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Old 05-16-08 | 06:55 AM
  #240  
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Originally Posted by Mr. Cinema


That's not considered growth?
Did I say anything about growth? Growth is a relative term. During the .com era, all Internet stores were saying we are experiencing 4000% percent growth!!!! However, those exciting growth terms meant bubkus when it was actually time to turn a profit.

As far as your specific comparision, I would really love to know how many titles were available in Q1 for 2007 in Blu Ray, as far as I remember there wasn't much at all. The only big ones off the top of my head were Casino Royale and the Departed.

I think a truer indication will be 2008 v. 2009 sales. All we can take from the numbers so far as it that unit media sales for certain titles and weeks have been poor and HD DVD's death didn't suddenly ignite some type of deep, unbridled Blu Ray spending spree by consumers.
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Old 05-16-08 | 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by chanster
As far as your specific comparision, I would really love to know how many titles were available in Q1 for 2007 in Blu Ray, as far as I remember there wasn't much at all. The only big ones off the top of my head were Casino Royale and the Departed.
Wrong-

Q1 2007 had twice as many day-and-date movies that had grossed over $100 million (4 vs 2), and nearly twice as many that had grossed over $50 million (12 vs 7).

Q1 2007
Happy Feet $ 198M
Casino Royale $ 167.4M
The Pursuit of Happyness $ 163.6M
The Departed $ 132.4M
Open Season $ 84.3M
Saw III $ 80.2M
March of the Penguins $ 77.4M
Eragon $ 75M
Rocky Balboa $ 70.3M
The Holiday (2006) $ 63.2M
The Guardian $ 55M
The Prestige $ 53.1M

Q1 2008
I Am Legend $ 256.4M
Enchanted $ 127.8M
The Game Plan $ 89.8M
No Country for Old Men $ 72.7M
Saw 4 $ 63.3M
3:10 To Yuma $ 53.6M
Resident Evil: Extinction $ 50.6M
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Old 05-16-08 | 07:25 AM
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I asked a question, thank you for answering in such a nice way. The only ones I could remember were Casino Royale and DEparted.
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Old 05-16-08 | 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by chanster
I asked a question, thank you for answering in such a nice way. The only ones I could remember were Casino Royale and DEparted.
For future reference:
http://www.blu-raystats.com/stats.php?OrderBy=Date
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Old 05-16-08 | 08:22 AM
  #244  
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Seems kind of weird to get worked up over something nobody here really has insight into (exact production costs and requirements, company profits, Sony kickbacks, etc; ).
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Old 05-16-08 | 09:39 AM
  #245  
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Some of you guys are picking the wrong fight with Grubert since he does back up what he is saying with numbers and I've seen that in every forum he participates in.

Personal opinions are just not going to cut it if you can't back what you're saying with hard numbers.
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Old 05-16-08 | 09:43 AM
  #246  
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Originally Posted by Grubert
While HD DVD was alive:
It doesn't matter if (because of the format war) high-definition discs remain a niche! There's nothing wrong with a niche! Don't worry about sales figures. If you do, you are an insecure person. Just buy and enjoy!

After HD DVD's death:
You should be worried about sales figures. You should be worried about the niche. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I have no problem with Blu-ray remaining a niche so long as the movies keep coming. Right now, Blu-ray is less than a niche. It's an unprofitable sinkhole. The Blu-ray studios and manufacturers have a lot of work to do if they expect to carve out a profitable niche.
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Old 05-16-08 | 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by RoboDad
No offense, but I would trust the judgment of people who are actually skilled at (and paid for) making and executing these plans over the judgment of the average Internet forum poster.
http://www.dailylead.com/news/cea/st...F-19A94615720B

Survey: Little demand for Blu-ray players
CEA SmartBrief | 05/15/2008

Fewer than 10% of consumers who do not own a Blu-ray DVD player plan to buy one in the next 12 months, even though most people are keenly aware that Blu-ray has won the format war for viewing DVD discs in HD, according to a new study from Harris Interactive. The Harris survey supports research released last month by ABI that suggested Blu-ray players remain too expensive for most consumers who are waiting for prices to drop below $200 before buying them. InformationWeek (05/14)
Those executives you put all your faith in have been doing a bang-up job of bringing new consumers to Blu-ray, an absolute bang-up job.
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Old 05-16-08 | 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z
I have no problem with Blu-ray remaining a niche so long as the movies keep coming. Right now, Blu-ray is less than a niche. It's an unprofitable sinkhole. The Blu-ray studios and manufacturers have a lot of work to do if they expect to carve out a profitable niche.
Speculation aside, where is the article that states this? Would like to read it.

No surprise that sinking $300 into something that does nothing but play movies isn't catching on. I jumped on board DVD when it hit the somewhat reasonable $150 range, around 2 years after launch.
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Old 05-16-08 | 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z
I have no problem with Blu-ray remaining a niche so long as the movies keep coming. Right now, Blu-ray is less than a niche. It's an unprofitable sinkhole. The Blu-ray studios and manufacturers have a lot of work to do if they expect to carve out a profitable niche.
Less than a niche? Oookay - in 2007 HDM was four times smaller. And you weren't worried studios were going to stop releases.

Either you have flip-flopped, or you have moved the goalposts. You tell me which.
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Old 05-16-08 | 10:22 AM
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Actually here is the direct link to the report Josh Z alluded to:

http://www.smartbrief.com/news/cea/i...F-D3EC2EE7DA4A

ROCHESTER, N.Y.-- (BUSINESS WIRE) -- While many people expected sales of Blu-ray disc players to spike when Toshiba decided to drop out of the high-definition HD DVD market in February 2008, according to a new Harris Poll, it seems that the recently resolved high definition format war is not motivating consumers to purchase the advanced DVD players any time soon. The Harris Poll® of 2,529 U.S. adults surveyed online between April 7 and 15, 2008 by Harris Interactive® found that:

* Ownership of standard DVD players is practically ubiquitous (87%);
* Few report owning Blu-ray disc players (4%), Sony PlayStation 3 (5%), HD DVD players (6%) and the HD-DVD drive for the Xbox 360 (1% have external drive while 9% have an Xbox 360);

* Only nine percent of non-Blu-ray player owners report being likely to purchase a Blu-ray disc player within the next year, even when made fully aware that Blu-ray is considered to be the definitive technology for high definition DVD players going forward;

* Two-thirds of consumers are familiar with the recently resolved high-definition format war (67%) and seven in ten of them have heard that Blu-ray is the unofficial winner (69%);

* Nearly a quarter (23%) of those aware of the format war report that they had been waiting for the rivalry to play itself out before purchasing a high definition player, but by April they had yet to do so;

* Although one-third of consumers report owning a high definition television set (HDTV; 35%), with incidence higher among males (41%) versus females (28%) and rising decidedly with household income (15% for those with less than $35K vs. 53% among those with $75K+), the percentage of HDTV owners likely to purchase a Blu-ray disc player is only 14 percent;

* Current ownership of Blu-ray disc players among HDTV owners stands at 10 percent.

According to Joan Barten Kline, Vice President of the Harris Interactive Media & Entertainment Practice, “Since Blu-ray disc player pricing averages more than $300, which is well above the cost for the latest generation of standard DVD players with up-converters, Blu-ray disc players may be encountering price sensitivity despite the advanced technology.”


Internet Connectivity

Interest in a Blu-ray disc player with Internet connectivity expected to be out in the Fall in a higher price range is also lacking:

* U.S. adults are more likely to purchase a Sony PlayStation 3 that plays Blu-ray discs and has Internet access for $399 (11%) or an original Blu-ray disc player without connectivity for the same price (10%) versus a new Blu-ray disc player with Internet for $500-$650 (4%);

* Not surprisingly, the under 40 crowd is most likely to opt for the PlayStation 3 as their Blu-ray capable device of choice – fully 23 percent of those in the 30-39 age group are likely to purchase this device in the next year (compared to 14% likely to buy an original Blu-ray disc player or the new Blu-ray disc player with Internet connectivity 5%)).

What Will Become of the HD-DVD Player?

* Like the BetaMax loyalists of yore, almost half (45%) of those who currently own an HD DVD player say that they will just continue to use it and continue purchasing HD DVD’s as long as they are available;
* Another 14 percent of those who currently own an HD DVD player will continue to use it with the HD DVD’s they have already purchased, but do not plan on buying any new ones;
* An equal proportion of HD DVD player owners (15%) will continue to use it but also plan to invest in a Blu-ray disc player in the future.

Methodology

The Harris Poll® was conducted online within the United States between April 7 and 15, 2008, among 2,529 adults (aged 18 and over). Figures for age, sex, race, education, region and household income were weighted where necessary to bring them into line with their actual proportions in the population. Propensity score weighting was also used to adjust for respondents’ propensity to be online. Because the sample is based on those who agreed to participate in the Harris Interactive panel, no estimates of theoretical sampling error can be calculated. A full methodology and data tables are available at www.harrisinteractive.com.

Last edited by chanster; 05-16-08 at 10:25 AM.
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