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General Blu-ray News and Discussion - Part 6

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General Blu-ray News and Discussion - Part 6

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Old 03-28-08 | 11:12 AM
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I got the HD DVD of Beowulf cheap and haven't watched it. Going to try and see it this weekend, and if I love it, I'll probably get the UK BD from Xploited who now have it in stock. I'd wait for a domestic Paramount BD release, but I don't trust them to include the TrueHD track.
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Old 03-28-08 | 06:39 PM
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I'm glad they are now showing a pie chart between BD and DVD, even though the former is not surprisingly, getting trounced.

I Am Legend dominates the top 10. Looks like Target's BOGO sale had some impact. Lots of catalogs re-appearing.




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Old 03-28-08 | 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Cinema
I'm glad they are now showing a pie chart between BD and DVD, even though the former is not surprisingly, getting trounced.

I Am Legend dominates the top 10. Looks like Target's BOGO sale had some impact. Lots of catalogs re-appearing.



Not at all shocked to see I Am Legend at #1.

Seems that No Country took a gigantic nose dive. I wonder if we will ever get the sales numbers for how many copies I Am Legend sold.

Shame Enchanted sold 1/4th of I Am Legend as it was a great movie.
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Old 03-28-08 | 08:01 PM
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http://www.homemediamagazine.com/index.cfm?sec_id=2

Small and mid-sized disc replicators were rooting hard for HD DVD.

A quick adjustment to existing DVD replication lines was all it took to pump out HD DVDs, while Blu-ray Disc requires all-new equipment.

Now that Blu-ray has won, manufacturers are left with the daunting question of whether or not to invest in new production lines for Blu-ray right away.

“We were all pulling for HD DVD to win, for obvious reasons,” said Steve Sheldon, president of replicator Rainbo Records. “It didn’t work out that way.”

Now that there’s only one high-def choice, and studios such as Universal Studios and Paramount are expected to add their movies on Blu-ray, some fear the load may be too much too quick for existing production lines.

“By the time we get into the fourth quarter of this year, there will be a problem with capacity,”
Jim Bottoms, co-managing director of research firm Understanding & Solutions, said earlier this month. U&S estimates an investment of $250 million and 80 new Blu-ray production lines will be needed in the next two years to meet demand. That’s what it’ll take to meet the demand of not only Blu-ray movies, but also games for the PlayStation 3.

Workers at Sony DADC have been swamped since August, Michael Mitchell, CTO and EVP of Sony DADC said this month. More than 115 million total Blu-ray Discs have been made by Sony DADC’s production lines, he said, 80% of which are 50GB. He added that Sony DADC is also offering more authoring support to independents.

With AACS encryption, mastering, authoring and compression, replication and packaging, the costs pile up quickly to make a Blu-ray, replicators emphasized, and can be especially risky for independents.

“The biggest concern from an indie standpoint was the initial investment, as it is a very expensive process,” said Tony Perez, president of Phoenix Entertainment Group, which just this month announced its first two Blu-ray titles. “Obviously we are not a major label.”

More than one manufacturer put the cost to content owners at $4 to $5 per disc for a “small” run of 25,000 discs. That’s compared to less than $1 each for the same amount of DVDs.

The costs for manufacturers to install Blu-ray lines can be just as daunting. One replicator, who asked to remain anonymous, pegged the figure for a 50GB BD line at nearly $2.7 million and a 25GB BD line at between $1.5 million and $1.7 million.

“The cost of the equipment seems almost prohibitive for small to mid-size replicators,” said Paula Tait, EVP of sales and marketing for Precise/Full Service Media, which does replication, packaging and distribution. “The question is how quickly will other manufacturers start offering Blu-ray?”

Sheldon said another concern facing replicators about Blu-ray is yield, how many usable discs actually come out of the production lines. Early on, he said, only half of the discs from Blu-ray production lines were coming out correctly. It’s about 75% now, he speculated.

“Blu-ray is not easy to make,” he said.

But Ed Virgie, president of Media Services Group, which sells replication equipment and helps with replication plant set-up, said DVDs weren’t easy to make at first either.

“The same yield issue existed when we went from DVD-5s to DVD-9s,” he said. “As you perfected it, perfected the equipment, the yield got better. It can take years to get yield up into the 90s (percentage), but it will happen with Blu-ray.”

Yet another issue is the onset of electronic delivery of content, and the decline in physical media.

“The issue here now is the market for physical media is declining, and the life-span for a format is declining,” Tait said.

VHS launched in the late 1970s, and wasn’t overtaken by DVD in terms of sales until 2003. DVD launched in 1997 and less than a decade later, Blu-ray hit the scene.

Tait added that capacity at existing Blu-ray production lines may be full for the next year and a half, even with reported plans by Sony DADC, Cinram and Technicolor — the three major Blu-ray Disc manufacturers — adding dozens of new lines in the coming years.

But more demand than capacity can be construed as good news for the Blu-ray format, replicators said, an issue that will work itself out, if history has anything to say about it.

“I think it’s a market force issue,” said Andy Parsons, SVP of product planning for the home entertainment group at Pioneer Electronics and marketing director of the Blu-ray Disc Association. “If you have capacity and demand in imbalance, the market responds. This happened with every new format that’s shipped, back to laserdisc and CD.”

Tait remembers back to the launch of DVD.

“It was just WAMO and Nimbus (later bought by Technicolor) that invested in the lines,” she said.

Now that there is a winner, more companies on the manufacturing side of home entertainment are testing the waters.

“We studied it for a year before we got into it,” said Troy Burlage, VP of sales for authoring and compression house Post Modern Group. “I think this will be a breakout year for Blu-ray.”

“Now that we don’t have a format war, it’s clear what needs to be adopted,” Parsons said.

But Sheldon said companies such as his will have to wait for now.

“No one knew which format would win out, and we couldn’t afford to play around with either,” Sheldon said. “I imagine the bigger guys are ramping up, but for now, for the smaller guys like us, getting into it is out of reach.”
Its going to be interesting to see how many titles Universal and Paramount will be releasing this year.
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Old 03-29-08 | 04:27 AM
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has Criterion said anything about Blu-Ray since the war ended?

-NiCK
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Old 03-29-08 | 04:44 AM
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The more competitive pricing sounds nice but I think it'll be title here and there to remind that buying Blu can be economical at times. I think it'll be some time before manufacturing and demand come to a comfortable spot. I've only had a player for about a month but I am already learning to jump on Blu-Ray deals faster than I did with DVD deals. DVD deals were often a few bucks difference but the deals for Blu-Rays are often far more vast and I don't want to risk missing them.
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Old 03-29-08 | 09:49 AM
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Sheldon said another concern facing replicators about Blu-ray is yield, how many usable discs actually come out of the production lines. Early on, he said, only half of the discs from Blu-ray production lines were coming out correctly. It’s about 75% now, he speculated.
Being a test engineer, I am curious about their validation process for the manufactured blu-ray discs.

... how many of these could potentially escape to consumers? (How many of my unwatched blu-rays could be defective?)
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Old 03-29-08 | 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by NiCK Crush
has Criterion said anything about Blu-Ray since the war ended?
I seem to remember seeing something kind of vague, although I can't dig up the quote.

As for that Home Media Magazine article...parts of it seem kind of misleading. The whole thing sounds so speculatory and hinged on the smaller replictators that I'm not sure it gives a strong sense of what the overall picture might be. It does seem a bit silly to me to say that there's a trend for the lifespans of formats shortening -- in part because there are only three points on their graph, really (VHS, DVD, and Blu-ray) and in part because they're drawing misleading comparisons. They're trying to stack up DVD overtaking VHS to Blu-ray launching, period. While it's undeniable that the time in between these formats has dropped dramatically, there aren't enough points on the graph to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion.

At least one replicator quotes considerably smaller numbers for a 25K run ($1.55 for BD-25 and $2.39 for BD-50 vs. the "$3-$4" from the article), for what that's worth. New Cyberian lists smaller numbers too (right at $2 per disc), but it doesn't say if it's for BD-25 or BD-50. Still...

I'm curious if the difference in cost between a BD-25 line and a BD-50 line means we'll be seeing more single layer releases, at least from the smaller studios. Not every title off the shelf needs a dual layer disc anyway.

I don't want to sound like an apologist -- I'm sure that Blu-ray is difficult to make and that there very well may be some growing pains over the next year or two -- but I'm skeptical that it's as gloomy as this article makes it sound.
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Old 03-29-08 | 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
I'm curious if the difference in cost between a BD-25 line and a BD-50 line means we'll be seeing more single layer releases, at least from the smaller studios.
This is already having an effect, even at the majors. Warner Bros had to squeeze recent titles like Assassination of Jesse James (which is a long movie) and Michael Clayton onto single-layer discs.
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Old 03-29-08 | 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z
This is already having an effect, even at the majors. Warner Bros had to squeeze recent titles like Assassination of Jesse James (which is a long movie) and Michael Clayton onto single-layer discs.
That was more to cut a corner so they didn't have to do the encodes twice for HD DVD and Blu-ray. Warner's been rather notorious about doing that. It shouldn't be problem much longer...

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Old 03-29-08 | 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
I seem to remember seeing something kind of vague, although I can't dig up the quote.

As for that Home Media Magazine article...parts of it seem kind of misleading. The whole thing sounds so speculatory and hinged on the smaller replictators that I'm not sure it gives a strong sense of what the overall picture might be. It does seem a bit silly to me to say that there's a trend for the lifespans of formats shortening -- in part because there are only three points on their graph, really (VHS, DVD, and Blu-ray) and in part because they're drawing misleading comparisons. They're trying to stack up DVD overtaking VHS to Blu-ray launching, period. While it's undeniable that the time in between these formats has dropped dramatically, there aren't enough points on the graph to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion.

At least one replicator quotes considerably smaller numbers for a 25K run ($1.55 for BD-25 and $2.39 for BD-50 vs. the "$3-$4" from the article), for what that's worth. New Cyberian lists smaller numbers too (right at $2 per disc), but it doesn't say if it's for BD-25 or BD-50. Still...

I'm curious if the difference in cost between a BD-25 line and a BD-50 line means we'll be seeing more single layer releases, at least from the smaller studios. Not every title off the shelf needs a dual layer disc anyway.

I don't want to sound like an apologist -- I'm sure that Blu-ray is difficult to make and that there very well may be some growing pains over the next year or two -- but I'm skeptical that it's as gloomy as this article makes it sound.
It's been over a year since I produced my last BD but I was initially surprised at the replication cost the article mentioned. Even at the smaller runs I was dealing with (15k-35k) my replication cost was closer to the $1.55 for a BD-25 you mention. Of course this doesn't include authoring and might not include packaging, etc. but $3-$4, not sure who they're dealing with but that seemed high.
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Old 03-29-08 | 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by fitprod
That was more to cut a corner so they didn't have to do the encodes twice for HD DVD and Blu-ray. Warner's been rather notorious about doing that. It shouldn't be problem much longer...

fitprod
Are you sure about that or just trying to take a stab at HD DVD?

Alvin and the Chipmunks, by Fox, a new Day and Date release is on a 25GB disc.
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Old 03-29-08 | 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Are you sure about that or just trying to take a stab at HD DVD?
Someone's being a bit sensitive...
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Old 03-29-08 | 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Its going to be interesting to see how many titles Universal and Paramount will be releasing this year.
It will be more interesting to see if Uni brings all previous HD-DVD releases to BD.
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Old 03-29-08 | 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Are you sure about that or just trying to take a stab at HD DVD?

Alvin and the Chipmunks, by Fox, a new Day and Date release is on a 25GB disc.
I would expect a post like this if we were still in 2007. But now?

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Old 03-29-08 | 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by candyrocket786
It will be more interesting to see if Uni brings all previous HD-DVD releases to BD.
Over time, maybe. I don't think we will be seeing Timecop and Cat People any time soon. The big movies like Bourne, Mummy etc, sure...but those lesser titles may have just been released to pad empty weeks. The same goes for Warner...how long until they release all of their HD DVD exclusive titles? Forbidden Planet was not a huge success by any means.
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Old 03-29-08 | 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Are you sure about that or just trying to take a stab at HD DVD?

Alvin and the Chipmunks, by Fox, a new Day and Date release is on a 25GB disc.
Pretty certain... The only major dual format studio that create different encodes was Paramount. The only thing Warner would do differently would be to add PCM & HD Supplement, and pretty much that was relegated to Harry Potter 5.

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Old 03-29-08 | 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by fitprod
Pretty certain... The only major dual format studio that create different encodes was Paramount. The only thing Warner would do differently would be to add PCM & HD Supplement, and pretty much that was relegated to Harry Potter 5.

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Keep in mind the HD DVD version of HP5 had exclusive online offerings, something the Blu-ray did not. It appeared Warner was testing the waters to see what would sell better or if people would swing one way or the other (more then any other neutral title of 60:40) for either feature. PCM tracks are also very heavy in size.

I don't think we are going to see any better quality just because Warner is using a 50GB disc vs. having to make it fit on a 30GB HD DVD disc and then porting it over to Blu-ray. So far only one title (3:10 to Yuma...? by Newline) would not have fit on an HD DVD disc due to the size.

But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, I want Gremlins in the best possible way
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Old 03-29-08 | 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by fitprod
That was more to cut a corner so they didn't have to do the encodes twice for HD DVD and Blu-ray. Warner's been rather notorious about doing that. It shouldn't be problem much longer...
Nonsense. Many of Warner's 30 gb HD DVD transfers were ported to 50 gb Blu-rays, either with space to spare or with an added PCM track to fill it up. Jesse James is a nearly 3-hour movie. If Warner were truly authoring for HD DVD first, it would have come closer to the 30 gb mark and then been ported to a BD50. Instead, both encodes are compromised by the need to squeeze it onto a 25 gb Blu-ray.
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Old 03-29-08 | 03:01 PM
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Although Predator is being released in a couple of weeks, not much info has been released regarding the disc specs. A member on blu-ray.com received his screener and it's a BD-25 with MPEG-2 encode. I have asked about extras, but I know what the answer will be. Another Fox $40 doozie.

From his post, it seems as though the video quality isn't much to brag about and the DTS HD MA track is good, not great. I think I'll pass and keep my 2-disc dvd.
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Old 03-29-08 | 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Cinema
Although Predator is being released in a couple of weeks, not much info has been released regarding the disc specs. A member on blu-ray.com received his screener and it's a BD-25 with MPEG-2 encode. I have asked about extras, but I know what the answer will be. Another Fox $40 doozie.

From his post, it seems as though the video quality isn't much to brag about and the DTS HD MA track is good, not great. I think I'll pass and keep my 2-disc dvd.
I think almost all of Fox's canceled/delayed titles are on 25GB disc. I fully expect the Rambo films to be the same way. No need to put them on a 50GB disc if they are going to skimp on extras and provide average HD quality transfers. Or, like others have said, 50GB discs are going to be tough to get due to lack of lines able to produce them and the less then great yields they are getting. I fully expect nearly all of Universal and Paramount titles to be on 25GB discs, 5GB less then the HD DVD size.
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Old 03-29-08 | 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
I think almost all of Fox's canceled/delayed titles are on 25GB disc. I fully expect the Rambo films to be the same way. No need to put them on a 50GB disc if they are going to skimp on extras and provide average HD quality transfers. Or, like others have said, 50GB discs are going to be tough to get due to lack of lines able to produce them and the less then great yields they are getting. I fully expect nearly all of Universal and Paramount titles to be on 25GB discs, 5GB less then the HD DVD size.
Would that "fully expect" be as accurate as your fully expecting HD to win the format war?

Actually, I'd have to agree that the first batch of catalog releases may very well be, HD-ported 25GBers. Hopefully, their new releases won't be.

There is no excuse for 25GB MPEG-2 encodings.
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Old 03-29-08 | 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Peep
Would that "fully expect" be as accurate as your fully expecting HD to win the format war?

Actually, I'd have to agree that the first batch of catalog releases may very well be, HD-ported 25GBers. Hopefully, their new releases won't be.

There is no excuse for 25GB MPEG-2 encodings.
Obviously HD DVD did not win the war. Various factors played ($) and at least Toshiba knew to back off and not draw it out for several years like Sony did with Beta.

However, I do believe we will be seeing an influx of 25GB discs in the very near future, if Universal and Paramount ever get around to announcing titles. Not that HD DVD has been pulled from Best Buy and most retailers will stop selling very soon, they will probably announce their titles and hope people forget about HD DVD so they can re-sell their movies once again.
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Old 03-29-08 | 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
I think almost all of Fox's canceled/delayed titles are on 25GB disc. I fully expect the Rambo films to be the same way. No need to put them on a 50GB disc if they are going to skimp on extras and provide average HD quality transfers. Or, like others have said, 50GB discs are going to be tough to get due to lack of lines able to produce them and the less then great yields they are getting. I fully expect nearly all of Universal and Paramount titles to be on 25GB discs, 5GB less then the HD DVD size.
Maybe for the smaller catalogs but not for the major releases like the Bourne movies, Transformers and such. Besides 25gb would be enough for most of the poor quality catalogs such as Liar Liar, Spartacus and etc.
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Old 03-29-08 | 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tonymontana313
Maybe for the smaller catalogs but not for the major releases like the Bourne movies, Transformers and such. Besides 25gb would be enough for most of the poor quality catalogs such as Liar Liar, Spartacus and etc.
If Bourne fit on a 30GB HD DVD disc, and if there is room to spare, their is no reason for it to be on a 50GB Blu-ray disc. Certain 2 disc movies like Transformers or Zodiac maybe, but I doubt Universal or Paramount will go through and re-do the movies. My hope is future Day and Dates be on a 50GB disc, like Sweeny Todd and/or Cloverfieled. No reason for any new Theatrical films to be on a 25GB Blu-ray disc as they tend to have more special features then older releases.
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