That's the truth. I remember by the time of the Alien Symbiote Planet or the Clone Saga there was Amazing, Adjectiveless, Spectacular, Web, Unlimited, and maybe Scarlet Spider. It was one awful story stretched out across all these different titles, all with average-looking art.


That was a good way to keep it simple. Even then I usually just stuck with one title for Batman. Detective Comics with Grant and Breyfogle was where all the crazy shit took place and featured stylistic art. Batman was more traditional with the Neil Adams-like Jim Aparo art.

I don't think it's necessarily a problem for kids keeping up. As a kid I couldn't figure out why one minute Spider-man was fighting Venom and married to this hot red head, and the next he's in college dating a blonde. But it was Spider-man so I loved it.
But once you get a little older, almost to middle school, you start getting more picky, and like you said, you start to subconsciously notice the quality being spread too thin. At one point there was Uncanny X-Men, X-Factor, New Mutants, then X-Men, and X-Force and I just stuck with whatever Jim Lee was illustrating, which was adjectiveless X-Men. But the stories started to get really basic, and later on I found out it was because Chris Claremont left after the first three issues, and Jim Lee insisted on being given more control over the story. The result was some very so-so stories and more splash pages, instead of necessary multiple paneled pages. I stopped reading when Ghost Rider showed up for no real good reason.


For me the "Adventures" type comics were never "real." Even as a kid I knew those Spider-man & the Electric Company comics weren't the real thing. And when The Adventures of Batman comic first came out, I dismissed it as for little kids, despite it probably having better stories than Knightfall. When you see the more simplistic Bruce Timm syle art compared to everything else on the shelf, it was easy to dismiss the whole thing as basic and simplistic. I think Spider-man Loves Mary Jane was the best Spider-man comic I had read in years. Anime-style art and an actual fun story that didn't seem to talk down to the reader.

I thought DC's All-Star line was also a good attempt at an "Ultimates"-like approach. But they couldn't even get the comics out on time, and Frank Miller seemed to go crazy at this time.
American superhero comics just feel too messy to get into.

We are still waiting for issue #11 of that All-Star Batman series.

Superhero comics were, for me, a lot more fun when there only two Batman titles, five X-Men titles. In the late 80s, I could follow Batman, Detective, JLA, JLE, X-Men, X-Factor, New Mutants, Wolverine, Excalibur, Daredevil, and The Incredible Hulk, and maybe a few other titles for under $20 a month.

But as we got deeper into the 90s, the prices kept going up, the lines got extended beyond reason (did we really need three goddamned Punisher books?), there were too many crossovers and miniseries, Wolverine, Ghost Rider, and Punisher showing up in every third-tier title, and it just got kind of ridiculous. There weren't enough competent writers or artists to keep up with all of this shit, the art was hideous -- either awful manga-inspired crap or Image-inspired crap -- and the stories were somewhere between terrible and forgettable.

For what its worth Batman and Superman are back to 2 title each these days.

Not really. DC is releasing Batman and Superman Giants bi-monthly (used to be monthly) and people get them (like me) because of the new stories. Batman also has Batman and the Outsiders, Batman Beyond (derivative but with Bruce Wayne still on the book) and the upcoming Tom King book Batman and Catwoman. Then there are all those Batman mini-series released almost every quarter. In addition, there's the Batman/Superman monthly book and Justice League, which has both of them.

They made it all the way to #11!? I thought they threw in the towel at around #6. I remember the last issue I flipped through was where either Batgirl was calling people “c****” or where Batman and Black Canary has sex in the street. With their masks on.


I think the early-to-mid 90s ended up turning off a sizable portion of comic readers. The spectator gimmick events hooked us and we bought all the issues up because we thought they were going to be worth thousands of dollars in the future. I remember at the time I didn’t even enjoy Knightfall/Knightquest/Knightsend or the Death of Superman/Reign of Supermen/Return of Superman. DC and Marvel were fueling the spectator market while at the expense of quality, and all for short term gains because later we got the industry implosion.

I blame “A Death in the Family.” They took a throwaway line in TDKR and tried to it force it into the regular continuity while also trying to make news headlines. And it’s an awful story.
Gimmick event over quality. It’s sad because the the Mike W. Barr/Alan Grant stories featuring Batman and the Jason Todd Robin were great.

They made it to issue 10 on All-Star Batman and the last never came out. I imagine that the criticism was so bad, and then when the word "fuck" was printed in the first printing of issue 10, uncensored, that's when the powers that be decided to put a stop to that. Around that time, Miller was being a racist jackass, and I guess that DC had enough of him. Originally, Miller had proposed the series Holy Terror to be a Batman one released around the same time as All-Star. After basically being an Islamophobic depiction of the world, the book ended being released by Dark Horse, who received tons of criticism for it. Miller says he regrets writing Holy Terror, and I'm pretty sure he regrets All-Star Batman too and that's why is never going to be completed.

It's odd too because if you want to put together an "all star" team for Batman, you could do worse than Miller and Lee. And it was just so terrible. But it's just probable that you can't put that genie back in the bottle: Claremont returning to X-men for the umpteenth time, for instance.

[
Did we They ever show Batman being Bruce Wayne outside of the first issue?

Miller was becoming a parody of himself by this time, IMO. I don’t if he was trying to keep up with edginess of writers like Mark Millar and Grant Morrison but it was very try-hard.
But I also think that Jim Lee’s conventional art style made it worse, strange as that sounds.

I think if the art would have been done by a DKR-era Frank Miller, it would have at least meshed well with the very unconventional approach to the story.

I think Mazzucelli’s work is amazing, but I’d go as far as to say that Year One would have been better had Miller also illustrated it.

They only cut Superman back because sales under Bendis have been disastrous.

Batman has two main titles and shares a title with Superman. Plus, many many related mini-series.

Superman has had three titles for a while - The two main titles and then sharing a book with someone else (Wonder Woman and then Batman during the New 52 and now just Batman Post-Rebirth).

what’s wrong with Bendis Superman?

Yeah, all of those miniseries just amount to a bunch of clutter.

Marvel and DC have made it a real pain in the ass to sort through all of the miniseries they pump out, in addition to the constant stream of re-launches, reboots, re-numberings, and crossover events.

When I look at the clusterfuck that the Marvel and DC universes have become, I'm so glad I bailed on them in the mid-90s when all of this shit was just starting to snowball.

Perfect example is this: Not long ago, I was sort of curious about Jason Aaron's critically acclaimed run on Thor. So I looked up what issues/TPBs I would need to read it and found this: https://www.howtolovecomics.com/2019...reading-order/

What.
The.
Fuck?

It is ridiculous. Look up something like Unbeatable Squirrel Girl:
https://www.comixology.com/search/se...=squirrel+girl

There's:
Unbeatable Squirrel Girl (2015)
Unbeatable Squirrel Girl (2015-2019)

because they restarted the numbering within the same year. For Squirrel Girl.

Marvel’s release schedule starting May 27th

Like I've said before, Batman and Superman have more titles. Batman has the monthly Batman and the Outsiders and the Batman Giant bi-monthly series. Superman also has the Giant bi-monthly book. Bruce Wayne is also an integral part of Batman Beyond.

Bendis sales haven't been disastrous but they didn't improve like it was expected from the Tomasi run. The problem with the Superman books (and almost every property that Bendis touches that isn't a self-creation) is that he throws away years of character development out the window in order to bring his idea of how the character is supposed to be. One of the things that has infuriated fans is that he aged the very popular Jon Kent from being a preteen to know being a full powered late-teenager. The Super Sons book had a great following and all of that was discarded once Bendis took over. In addition, his Superman stories have been boring and recycling old storylines, like Superman revealing his identity to the world. Bendis Legion book has also been subpar and his Young Justice book started ok but is now another decompression storyline that it's spinning on its wheels.

Don’t forget, all those titles were double shipping monthly for most of Rebirth, and Batman is still double shipping.

Super Sons was the best comic on the racks for the two years it ran (first as Super Sons then Adventures of the Super Sons). It was the most fun I had reading a book in a long time.

It's no secret that behind the scenes, Bendis is not bringing the audience DC was expecting. They definitely wanted a major hit but, as you said, the Superman titles are pretty much in the same spot as when Tomasi and Jurgens were on the books. And I gotta say, Tomasi's run was excellent. Some of the best Superman writing in a long time. And having Jurgens back on Superman just sweetened the pot.

I don't dislike Bendis' Superman run. I think it's fine. But just that - Fine. It should be much much more. The current Action Comics story arc is just terrible tho. It was the first time I've debated dropping the title.

Oh okay. I'm so behind in the comic scene. The last time I remember a big hubbub about Superman was when JMS had Superman walk across the country instead of flying.
No, wait. Then there was Grant Morrison on Action Comics. I flipped through a TPB of it, but the only story that stuck out to me was the phantom Krypto one.

Alan Moore's Supreme, and Grant Morrison's All-Star Superman are the only modern monthly/bi-monthly Superman stories that I really enjoyed. I've never had a chance to read the Silver Age Superman stories where all the charming stuff comes from (City of Kandor, LOSH, Superboy, Supergirl, Krypto, Fortress of Solitude, etc).

That's too bad that Legion is also not good. The premise of LOSH sounds like a lot of fun. I briefly read Jim Shooter and Francis Manapul' shot run on Legion. Nothing awe-inspiring, but it was fun and they really made it worth the cover price.

As a lifelong Legion fan that is the saddest thing I've read in this thread, that the new Legion book isn't good. Both of my favorite childhood team books: Teen Titans and Legion of Superheroes, have been ruined for a couple of reboots now because they deal with future and legacy characters and are thus deeply steeped in continuity. I haven't read Titans since the rebirth series but I was not a huge fan of that version of Donna Troy, etc. And then you have Wally.

Sorry, rant over. I am slowly catching up via DC Universe (however long that stays around), but like I said before, even for a hardcore fan like me it's really really hard to follow along and figure out reading order without resorting to some kind of list some fan compiles on a different site. Which is ridiculous.

The new Legion book has pretty decent reviews overall, don’t just take the word of posters here. I admit I’m way behind and haven’t read much since rebirth, but what I have read (mostly Hawkman and Batman) has been excellent. Well, excellent for big two comics.

Ha, good or bad I'll get around to reading it, just not at 3.99 a pop. Like Heroes in Crisis I'll probably read it once it gets to DC Universe or is on sale in Comixology (oh, HiC is on sale right now)

Yeah, I plan to read pretty much every DC book. My nostalgia is so strong for the books and characters, that I resist very little when it all eventually hits that 84 cents or less price.

Here’s a good series of articles that pushback on some of that BS from Brian Hibbs.
https://www.comicsbeat.com/the-coron...lp-us-survive/