I think it's such a big deal to people because look at DS9 those special effects for the later seasons look great on the dvds.

Which is really why it was inexcusable for them to use it at all. Adding effects to a SatAM cartoon would be one thing, but in a supposedly serious show it's just not acceptable. Were they also too cheap to afford to make models? Hell, Star Trek had a shoestring budget when it was first on and they raided model kits to come up with different pieces to make their ships...and I even read they used LEGGS covers for the domed covers over the warp nacels.

Things like Jason and the Argonauts and the old Star Trek hold nostalgia for many of in inspite of the cheap looking special effects because at least the cheap effects were REAL and made by HAND. Not some stupid computer.

I too started DS9 when it originally ran for only a few episodes. I thought it was fairly boring. I heard years down the line how great it was so I bought season the 2 DVD set and found myself interested in only a few episodes. I bought season three and was hooked. I would watch two or three episodes a night then anticipate the release of the next season feverishly. It got so good.

Was waiting to see if anyone else noted this. Startrek DS9 owes much of what greatness it has to Babylon 5. One example that showed up every episode is that if you watch the first season of DS9, the intro is a general overview and zoom fest of the physical station and ships coming to and fro. Then they saw that Babylon 5 had showed many of the human workers on and around the exterior of the station. The next season, DS9 copied that.

All in all, I thought it was a good, but not excellent series. Sisko decking Q and Q responding "Picard wouldn't have hit me." had me rolling of the couch roaring with laughter. Any show that can do that has something going for it!

The whole messianic arc of Sisko was a bit annoying, especially when he made a whole fleet of ships poof into thin air (with the help of the "worm hole aliens").

The musical Dax's was annoying. I liked both Judzia and Ezri though. Nicole deBoer (Ezri) was a cute little thing and came fresh from a failed SciFi show I actually liked, "Mission Genesis" I think it was called. Although Terry Farrell (actually, Theresa Lee Farrell Grussendorf, who played Judzia) was hot, especially in her lez scene.

And being a Boston Legal Fan, I of course liked Odo. Gosh are all the star trek actors doing well all around. Two are named partners.

The CG looked fine on a 19" TV back when the show aired.

B5 was on a budget of about $800,000 apiece (compare to DS9 @ ~1.6 million), and B5 always stayed under budget.

The use of CG let them do things with battles - make them true 3D, have dozens of ships flying around on different planes, roll the camera out of a window to the station and spin it around, etc.

There's a reason Star Trek battles (up until DS9 started using CG about halfway though) consisted of ships moving around like slow, bulky submarines and duking it out practically sitting still - limitations of using models. Star Trek battles are a snoozefest.

Anyway, the show isn't about the battles and the CG. You could replace them with paper airplanes on strings and it would still be a pretty decent show. I'd say it's about the rise and fall of empires, the impact each single individual can make on the universe, and people who change over time.

There's a reason I like DS9 best. It comes closest to B5 in these respects and is much more realistic with regard to people and their behavior than the perfect-people / perfect society syndrome that the other ST shows strongly tend towards.

Just thought I'd mention that the season sets are from $40-$42 at Deep Discount and DVD Planet with the 20% off sale.

(according to dvdpricesearch.com)

Seriously? They stole the little people? Who cares? Unless their "theft" comes to more than "Space Station premise" and "human workers outside", it's hardly plagerism.

Doc

Sounds like more B5 bitterness. Add THAT to the list of reasons I never want to watch that show.

It hurts their cause and does nothing to pique my desire to see it, not going to lie....


Doc

I can understand not wanting to watch a show, but this has to be one of the sillier reasons I've heard and comes across to me as being more bitter than the referenced post.

I've never really understood the rivarly thing between B5 and DS9. DS9 was undeniably influenced by B5, but so were countless other shows in various ways and I don't see that as a negative. Star Trek as a whole was a huge influence on B5 (as well as every other space show that followed TOS). Even with the influences, they were markedly different shows trying to tell different stories, and I enjoy them both.

I don't care about the rivalry either, except to the extent that everytime DS9 is mentioned, fanboys start popping out of the woodwork calling it a rip-off of B5. They premiered at the same time. They both had wars. They both, evidently, featured "work people" outside the station in their credits. Get over it. I have no trouble believing that B5 is a very good show with a devoted following (silly use of not-yet-ready-for-mass-production cgi aside). Stop trying to prove it by dissing another show (this isn't directed at you, Wally). There's no faster way to alienate someone and leave them with a sour taste in their mouth for YOUR show than by being outwardly hostle toward THEIRS.

Doc

Couldn't have said it better.

I already listed my reasons for not wanting to see B5, and the issue of B5 fans (and as I mention in my list, the actors themselves) being so bitter about DS9 just leaves a bad taste behind. I don't care about the rivalry, but I'm well aware of it and it leaves me wanting to avoid B5 out of spite, and my own bitterness about that constant 'us versus them' attitude. I don't know a thing about the storylines in B5, but it just didn't look like something I wanted to watch anyway.

Yup. The problem with the 'us vs. them' attitude is that it forces the 'them' to go on the defensive and instead of continuing to be ambivalent, instead adopt that same 'us v. them' mindset.


Doc

...Not to mention that the above poster's characterization of the opening credits change is complete bullshit: It was changed because they added The Defiant, and decided to make the whole place look busier with add'l ships and activity while they were at it--the space station was gearing up for war, and no longer a "lonely outpost." And it wasn't after the first season.

Even the music was altered.

A richer, fuller sound with 6 french horns, rhythmic chimes, etc all making the title sequence more energetic. As the theme's composer Dennis McCarthy said about it, "We weren't lonely anymore".

Funny how that Season 4 and onward version of the title theme was recorded in three slight variations.

Another good point. And even if I grant the premise that DS9 took ideas (which I'm not entirely sure how they did, considering the shows aired simultaneously and were in production for months prior to that), what's the big deal with being inspired by something and running with your own ideas?

"A show set on a station in deep space where the dregs of the galaxy interact.... hmmm... we could take that premise, apply it to the star trek universe and develop a whole plot around a totalitarian empire from the gamma quadrant bent on bringing order to the galaxy."

Christ, if that line of thought was so hell-worthy, you guys would have fed Lucas to the wolves back during the original trilogy. There wasn't a drop of originality in those things that wasn't lifted from some other story or myth, but he took those ideas and themes and built upon them.

Another space station show?!!!!! THIEVES!!!!!!

So Law & Order, NYPD Blue, Hill Street Blues, The Shield and The Wire are all dirivitive pieces of crap not worthy to suck the nuts of Dragnet? Seriously...?


Doc

I'm a huge B5 fan, and I said, DS9 was my favorite Star Trek. I didn't bitch and moan claiming someone stole something. Don't judge a show based on its more outspoken and deranged fanboys.

I don't, believe me, and I made a point of saying that this wasn't everyone. I was only defending others who had said that all the abuse they get from some B5 fans is what has turned them off of the show, and I was agreeing that while not fair to the show, it is entirely understandable, as I catch myself often feeling that way.

I still believe that one of these days I'm going to catch up to this show and really dig it. I've heard too many good things said about it by people whose opinion I very much trust. I'm just saying it's unfortunate that so many of the fans are so bitter, otherwise I may have seen it by now.


Doc

Like Doc MacGyver I, too, agree with everything in your post. I found Garak to be the most intriguing character on DS9 and looked forward to episodes that included him.

As for the OP's question, DS9 is by far my favorite of the Star Trek series. I like the long story arcs and the complex and evolving characters, including villains. I liked the detailed development of the culture, religion, and politics of the Bajorans (as well as the Ferengi and Cardassians, to some extent).

I watched the entire series when it hit TV and then bought the DVDs when they became available. While I didn't much care for the pilot, the series grew on me quickly.


I also really like Babylon 5, which was a blind buy based on the opinion of people here in the TV forum (such as das Monkey), as well as a friend who likes sci-fi. Yes, it is a shame they lost the CGI masters and were never able to fix it when they went to 16:9 on the DVDs. Had WB known the DVDs would be so successful perhaps they might have fronted the money for new CGI. But the important part is the story and characters; B5 is a compelling adventure with plot twists that are amazing. The best characters are the non-humans, with the series long interaction between G'kar and Londo being the highlight. B5 ranks high among the best TV series ever, IMO.

Agree completely with this. G'Kar & Londo and their evolution (or devolution as the case may be) was great TV. I've watched the entire series run all the way through a few times.

But today, for whatever reason, it's easier to watch DS9. CGI probably has the most to do with that, plus it may simply be that I have watched B5 more. Taped way back when, watched it on Sci-Fi and own the DVD sets...

early CG looked OK over all but has not held up well over time. Most special effects don't. But I'd still rather watch a show with model kits for ships and space stations with a dated look than dated CGI.

I find that watching the DS9 DVDs on an LCD screen, no matter what size, looks terrible, but perfect on a standard CRT screen, which is what they were originally meant to be viewed on back when they aired. An LCD screen reveals every image flaw, and makes the mastered-on-video effects look horrible.

Best example of this is the pilot "Emissary". Look at these two scenes:

-In the teaser right after the "three years later" title card you see an establishing shot of a bridge and lake. That shot is easily the worst quality shot of the entire series, but looks half-way decent on a standard TV.

-The scene immediately after the Enterprise leaves, the Gul Dukat scene begins. Both the opening shot of the viewscreen and the following shot of the characters look out of focus, but again, not too bad on a standard TV.

Star Trek started using CGI in 1995, with Voyager. There was never a model of the ship. The CGI in B5 and Voyager are comparable, in my opinion. Remember species 8472 or whatever it was?