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Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

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Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Old 07-01-21, 02:05 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

We've had this discussion many times before. Do you reject the art because the artist did something wrong? Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, Charles Dutton, Fatty Arbuckle (falsely accused), Caravaggio, and now Bill Cosby.

I make a distinction between the artist and the art. Other people can't do it, because their perception of the artist colors their reaction to the art. There's nothing wrong with that.
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Old 07-01-21, 04:26 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Nick Danger View Post
We've had this discussion many times before. Do you reject the art because the artist did something wrong? Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, Charles Dutton, Fatty Arbuckle (falsely accused), Caravaggio, and now Bill Cosby.

I make a distinction between the artist and the art. Other people can't do it, because their perception of the artist colors their reaction to the art. There's nothing wrong with that.
Or they are just virtue signaling.
Old 07-01-21, 05:50 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Nick Danger View Post
We've had this discussion many times before. Do you reject the art because the artist did something wrong? Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, Charles Dutton, Fatty Arbuckle (falsely accused), Caravaggio, and now Bill Cosby.

I make a distinction between the artist and the art. Other people can't do it, because their perception of the artist colors their reaction to the art. There's nothing wrong with that.
I think that most people, myself included, sort of take it on a case-by-case basis.

Personally, sometimes I can separate the art and the artist, and sometimes I can't.

Roman Polanski is a total piece of shit, but Rosemary's Baby is a brilliant movie. And I can still watch that movie, but I avoid Polanski's more recent work.

And when the artist is dead -- H. P. Lovecraft, Picasso, Dali, or Ezra Pound -- their crimes and assholeishness become trivia.

Some of these guys, like James Franco, I don't really follow anyway. I don't even know what he looks like.

But there are also some actors, musicians, and writers who rub me the wrong way, and I avoid their work. There is one author, who was on my personal top ten writers, whose work I have abandoned after reading their website and social media and discovered them to be an insufferable asshole. No actual crimes, just a strong personal dislike.

With Bill Cosby, I was never a huge fan of his. I've heard very little of his stand-up, though I've heard it's very good, and was only a casual viewer of the Cosby Show, and the revelation that he was a serial rapist doesn't really make me want to explore any more of his work.
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Old 07-01-21, 07:09 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

It's weird how I can totally understand and I'm ok with other people being fine with watching the Cosby show without accusing them of anything, like it's ok to have a difference of opinion and I don't need you to adhere to mine.

If you can't understand why some people can't watch the COSBY show without separating Bill Cosby from the character he plays, or without being reminded of what he did, I'm not sure what to tell you. But it's not all "virtue signaling" or whatever you want to call it.
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Old 07-01-21, 08:06 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Itís not really boycotting or ďcancellingĒ Cosby if Iím not really searching his stuff out in the first place. I never cared for his stand-up. There was nothing bad about it, I just never found it particularly funny. I watched The Cosby Show as a kid but donít have any urge to rewatch it ever again, regardless of whether it stars a serial rapist. Itís not exactly like Cosby ever lit the Box Office on fire. No one is upset that weíll never get a sequel to Ghost Dad or Leonard Part 6.

Frankly, Bill Cosby is pretty damn easy to ignore.
Old 07-02-21, 06:40 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

I did ignore Bill Cosby passively for the last 20 years and while I looking forward to more Kevin Spacey movies, I couldn't watch The Cosby Show, which in theory would be sad, if I had any desire to rewatch it, but like Married with Children or Roseanne they sitcoms from my childhood, I have no intrest in anymore.

Most of the time I can seperate the artist from the art, but I'm pretty happy Bill Cosby didn't star in anything I like to watch.
Old 07-02-21, 07:12 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Of all the performers I've asked for autographs over the past five or so decades, the only one to turn me down was Bill Cosby. He's also the only one who wound up in jail.
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Old 07-02-21, 07:33 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

I have some friends that completely blacklist any actor/musician when questionable situations arise, even if they are a huge fan.
I guess I don’t get the need to go that extreme, but that’s their choice. As someone said earlier, I take it on a case by case basis. I used to enjoy Jeepers Creepers, but I won’t watch that anymore since Victor Salva is a fucking piece of shit.
I can’t picture a scenario where I would suddenly stop listening to songs like I Saw Her Standing There or Rosalie or throw my Chuck Berry records in the trash. I don’t condone shitty behavior, but might as well just stop listening to music altogether.
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Old 07-02-21, 09:29 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Nick Danger View Post
We've had this discussion many times before. Do you reject the art because the artist did something wrong? Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, Charles Dutton, Fatty Arbuckle (falsely accused), Caravaggio, and now Bill Cosby.

I make a distinction between the artist and the art. Other people can't do it, because their perception of the artist colors their reaction to the art. There's nothing wrong with that.
In some cases it's easier than others, even within an artists oeuvre. For instance, rewatching Broadway Danny Rose isn't going to feel creepy, while Manhattan? Let's just say I haven't seen the latter in a few years and don't plan on doing so anytime soon.

I know I've said this before, but I always ask - how can we be consistent about this when artists who lived hundreds or thousands of years ago had personal lives generally unknown to us. I don't know what Chaucer got up to in his free time, but I do know about Polanski. It just seems unfair to 'cancel' artists simply because contemporary events are much more known.

Also, why should I deny myself the pleasure of, e.g., Chinatown because Polanski committed criminal acts? He gets no remuneration for it, so I'm only really hurting myself by refusing to watch it on principle.
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Old 07-02-21, 09:55 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by fujishig View Post
It's weird how I can totally understand and I'm ok with other people being fine with watching the Cosby show without accusing them of anything, like it's ok to have a difference of opinion and I don't need you to adhere to mine.

If you can't understand why some people can't watch the COSBY show without separating Bill Cosby from the character he plays, or without being reminded of what he did, I'm not sure what to tell you. But it's not all "virtue signaling" or whatever you want to call it.
I am happy to be done with this discussion because I really don't care that much about Bill Cosby's post-1970s career, but I will just reiterate my original point.
I 100% guarantee you all that if any famous comedian like Seinfeld or Rock came out this week and said that Bill Cosby is a criminal who deserves to be punished for his crimes, but that Bill Cosby is also one of the greatest stand-up comedians ever and his classic 1960s comedy albums are still hilarious, they would be torn apart by the woke police. That doesn't make any sense to me.
If any individual says they can't separate the art from the artist, that's their personal business. I honestly don't get it, but you be you.
I lament that we live in a culture where there is a mob demanding that people not be allowed to separate the art from the artist, if that's what they are able to do.
So, yes, I am criticizing cancel culture.
Apart from the fact of its enormous popularity, The Cosby Show was one of the most important TV shows of all time. It is wrong for the show to be erased from TV history, and its importance does not come with an asterisk.

And (again) just watch that Seinfeld appearance on Colbert and see what happens when they talk about Cosby. That's what I'm talking about.
Old 07-02-21, 10:05 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

I guess the best summation of this would be:

"Well I'd rather see you dead, little girl, than to be with another man." - John Lennon

"Imagine all the people, living life in peace." - John Lennon
Old 07-02-21, 12:56 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

ďSure he raped a bunch of women but I love his TV show!Ē is not a take I can get behind

I think Bill Cosby: Himself is the greatest stand-up special of all time and Iíll never watch it again. Because that dude raped women for decades. My enjoyment of a stand-up special doesnít compare to the trauma he brought into the world. The absolute least I can do is not support his work anymore.
Old 07-02-21, 01:10 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
ďSure he raped a bunch of women but I love his TV show!Ē is not a take I can get behind

I think Bill Cosby: Himself is the greatest stand-up special of all time and Iíll never watch it again. Because that dude raped women for decades. My enjoyment of a stand-up special doesnít compare to the trauma he brought into the world. The absolute least I can do is not support his work anymore.
Well, there ya go.

You aren't saying that because of what you know about him, you can no longer enjoy his work, which is what everybody in the thread has been arguing.

You are saying that you won't allow yourself to enjoy his work because of what you know about him personally. And that is something entirely different. And that is what I call virtue signaling.

You are not saying his stand-up isn't funny, and you are saying that you would enjoy it if you watched it, but you don't want to "support his work," and I don't even know what that means in this context.

My enjoyment of a stand-up special doesnít compare to the trauma he brought into the world.
So if you enjoy his stand-up, you are adding to the trauma he created, and if you don't watch it, you are decreasing it?

Or did that trauma happen, and the people who suffered it have to deal with it, and you are not part of the equation in any way?
Old 07-02-21, 01:49 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Count Dooku View Post


The point is neither impacts my ability to compartmentalize my knowledge of the actor's personal life and engage with the text and performances as fiction
Okay, if someone were to tell me that they couldn't enjoy Black Widow because Scar Jo is not a real superhero or because she's fucking Colin Jost, I'd think that was pretty weird. If someone were to tell me they couldn't enjoy the Cosby Show because Bill Cosby drugged and raped a bunch of women, I'd think that was pretty understandable. But that's just me.
Old 07-02-21, 01:59 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

I discovered "the core" by Eric Clapton the other day and someone said they didn't listen to him anymore because of his past racism (and he sounds like he's still a big fuckstick too). At first I thought, "but I love that song now!" And then I thought, but there are millions of other great songs out there, as are there many many fantastic comics (I hope) who didn't use their fame to rape people.

If you want to still listen to or watch Cosby, great, but if you take issue with others' reasoning or choice to not do so, ask yourself why.
Old 07-02-21, 02:03 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
ďSure he raped a bunch of women but I love his TV show!Ē is not a take I can get behind

I think Bill Cosby: Himself is the greatest stand-up special of all time and Iíll never watch it again. Because that dude raped women for decades. My enjoyment of a stand-up special doesnít compare to the trauma he brought into the world. The absolute least I can do is not support his work anymore.
Yeah this I donít get. The only one getting screwed out of this is you. Cosby gets no benefit from you popping on an old special of his. If it changed your opinion of the quality of his work thatís one thing, but you admit that you enjoy it.
Old 07-02-21, 02:34 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by DaveyJoe View Post
Okay, if someone were to tell me that they couldn't enjoy Black Widow because Scar Jo is not a real superhero or because she's fucking Colin Jost, I'd think that was pretty weird. If someone were to tell me they couldn't enjoy the Cosby Show because Bill Cosby drugged and raped a bunch of women, I'd think that was pretty understandable. But that's just me.
They are both actors playing fictional characters. I think it is weird that you would not react the same way in both circumstances, which is the same willing suspension of disbelief that was required when you watched the thousands and thousands of hours of others movies and TV shows that you have in your life.
Old 07-02-21, 02:40 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Count Dooku View Post
They are both actors playing fictional characters. I think it is weird that you would not react the same way in both circumstances, which is the same willing suspension of disbelief that was required when you watched the thousands and thousands of hours of others movies and TV shows that you have in your life.
I don't think it's weird at all. The knowledge of Bill Cosby raping a bunch of women interferes with my suspension of disbelief. If Hilary Clinton is cast in the next Marvel film would you be able to appreciate her performance if she's playing a fictional character?
Old 07-02-21, 02:47 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by DaveyJoe View Post
I don't think it's weird at all. The knowledge of Bill Cosby raping a bunch of women interferes with my suspension of disbelief. If Hilary Clinton is cast in the next Marvel film would you be able to appreciate her performance if she's playing a fictional character?
Me after I read that...
Old 07-02-21, 02:59 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Kurt D View Post
If you want to still listen to or watch Cosby, great, but if you take issue with others' reasoning or choice to not do so, ask yourself why.
Why I take issue with "others' reasoning or choice to not do so" is because I question whether they have made a personal decision or whether they have bullied into an opinion by the mob mentality of the woke police.

If someone like Stephen Colbert says he can't enjoy what he used to love because just the thought of Bill Cosby offends his moral sensibility, I accept that, and if that is anyone in this thread's reaction as well, I accept that as well.
On the other hand, I can see Jerry Seinfeld expressing his honest feeling that funny is funny, and that Cosby's crimes don't impact his appreciation of Cosby's comedy, and then doing a 180 after someone "straightens him out" during a commercial break.

I guess I'll just post it again. If you have made the personal choice not to have anything to do with Cosby's work, that's your business (for whatever reason) but the prevalent attitude in our society is that no one SHOULD want to watch or listen to Cosby's work, which is cancel culture. I don't like cancel culture.

The other thing that fascinates me is that other people don't compartmentalize like I do. It's like finding out that other people eat their toast buttered side down. WTF?

So, that's why.
Old 07-02-21, 03:08 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by DaveyJoe View Post
I don't think it's weird at all. The knowledge of Bill Cosby raping a bunch of women interferes with my suspension of disbelief. If Hilary Clinton is cast in the next Marvel film would you be able to appreciate her performance if she's playing a fictional character?
It entirely depends on if she is a good actress. If someone can't act, all you're aware of is their existence as someone trying to play a character, and doing so poorly.

I mean, how this not obvious, every time a "movie star" appears on screen, I immediately know who they are in real life, but I also am able to compartmentalize that knowledge, and suspend my disbelief to let them become the character in my mind.

Like I just posted, if you can't do that with Bill Cosby, I'll believe you since you say it, but I really don't understand it, because i have no trouble doing it.
Old 07-02-21, 03:10 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Count Dooku View Post
Why I take issue with "others' reasoning or choice to not do so" is because I question whether they have made a personal decision or whether they have bullied into an opinion by the mob mentality of the woke police.

Huh? So you can't believe people can make up their own minds? Why not give them the benefit of doubt? Why would you care either way?

The other thing that fascinates me is that other people don't compartmentalize like I do. It's like finding out that other people eat their toast buttered side down. WTF?

So, that's why.
You do realize that can potentially be unhealthy right?

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Old 07-02-21, 03:47 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Count Dooku View Post
Well, there ya go.

You aren't saying that because of what you know about him, you can no longer enjoy his work, which is what everybody in the thread has been arguing.

You are saying that you won't allow yourself to enjoy his work because of what you know about him personally. And that is something entirely different. And that is what I call virtue signaling.

You are not saying his stand-up isn't funny, and you are saying that you would enjoy it if you watched it, but you don't want to "support his work," and I don't even know what that means in this context.

So if you enjoy his stand-up, you are adding to the trauma he created, and if you don't watch it, you are decreasing it?

Or did that trauma happen, and the people who suffered it have to deal with it, and you are not part of the equation in any way?
I enjoyed that special when I was younger. If I watched it now, I wouldnít find it as funny because the guy is a rapist and I was too naive to know that before.

And a stand-up special is ALL about the comic. Iím not a Roman Polanski fan but I at least understand people being able to separate the director from the project as a whole.

But Iím not going to be able to laugh at Cosby talking about the ingredients of chocolate cake knowing he drugged and raped dozens of women. So sure, Iím the weird one.
Old 07-02-21, 03:58 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

I also think more specific to Cosby, he told everyone else how to act. He was a serious "Politics of Respectability" monger. So how does a man who drugs and rapes women have ANY credibility? Even watching his "wholesome" and "Family Valued" show The Cosby show, all I can think is he likes drugging women and molesting them and others on the show or close to him probably knew or at least heard things and said nothing.

I also don't listen to R Kelly music. Am I perfect about this, No. I'll still watch Aquaman and the upcoming sequel even though Amber Heard is an abusive mess. But this is something I've been looking within to figure out.
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Old 07-02-21, 04:13 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

This is blatant trolling not sure why you guys keep engaging.
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