Dan

This is one of the better posts on this topic and I'm not surprised that it was basically ignored by the intended audience, so they could keep acting like nobody has tried to reason with them.
kefrank

B5Erik

Really. So showing empathy, compassion, and respect is based SOLELY on pronoun use.

WTF???

So I can treat her like utter shit, but as long as I use the proper pronoun I'm still good? But if I treat her with empathy, compassion, and respect (which I have if you actually read what I have said about Elliott/Ellen), but use the, "Wrong," pronoun because I view those things as immutable and literal, I'm the bad guy?

I have said, time and time again, that I am glad for her that she can be who she is and that she should get nothing but love and respect and support for that.

But I guess that doesn't matter to some people. Gotta use the politically correct pronoun or else you're a cruel, mean spirited a-hole.

I've got to quote John McEnroe here...

B5Erik

It wasn't ignored, I just didn't respond to it because I didn't want to pick a fight. It came across as a condescending lecture where he was talking down to me. Sorry, it honestly reads that way. If you can't see that then you're not looking objectively. (And I am 100% sure he didn't consciously mean it that way, but if you read the word choice, the phrases used, it's very much like someone talking down to the other party. He meant well, but subconsciously there was clearly a tone of being patronizing to someone lesser than him.)

I chose to try to further explain my points - some of which have yet to be addressed - instead of picking that fight. I honestly think kefrank is a good guy, and, like I said, I know he meant well, but that post just came across in a way that I couldn't respond to dispassionately. (Not without backing off and thinking about it for a while. I suppose some people would have preferred a knee-jerk reaction instead.)

I've asked a couple questions three or four times, and no one has answered them. They're not rude questions, they're not trolling, they're actually kind of insightful if you truly want to understand where the people who don't agree with you are coming from.

Count Dooku

But you don't want to respect his request about how to be addressed and support his decision to come out as a transgender male?

Hadrian7

It is similar to trying to explain to someone that there is more to a day than just daytime and nighttime. There is the blue hour and twilight as well. Some people want to live in a black and white world and the reality is that life is not that simple.

B5Erik

That is the most trivial part of showing respect and support. The tiniest part. I don't believe in changing the meaning of words just to make people feel better. That's one of my idiosyncrasies. Sorry.

Would you be happier if someone said, "Good grief, he's a freak! What a sick, twisted person he is!" Of course not. But the people around here are acting like that's what I said.

Showing hate and disgust, but using the proper pronoun, to me, would be far more disrespectful and cruel.

I hate very few people (although the Orange Buffoon, aka The Cretin In Chief, comes to mind), and Elliott/Ellen is nowhere near that list. I hope she truly is happy. A woman taking on a masculine role is not a bad thing.

B5Erik

Get off my fucking lawn!!!

majorjoe23

It’s amazing how a thread about a man named Elliot has become a thread about a man named Erik.

B5Erik

And isn't it amazing that it only happened because people chose to make an issue out of one innocent post.

If no one had commented on it, none of this discussion would have happened.

I certainly didn't want this back and forth over a fucking pronoun.

Count Dooku

So which is it?

1) Going along with his choice of pronoun is the most trivial part of showing him respect, but you won't do it because pronouns are just too important to you.

2) It's just a fucking pronoun! Why do people care so much?

You showed up at someone's house and took a dump in their swimming pool. Then you twisted yourself into a knot explaining why leaving a dookie in the deep end isn't a big deal. Now you're saying that the real problem is that people saw you do it and complained.

Hadrian7

Bravo.

B5Erik

It's both, depending on the circumstances.

First, this isn't your house, nor is it anyone else's here. It belongs to all of us as a group.

Second, when I made that first post, I meant every word of support and respect. I didn't take a dump in the pool - that was a gross misinterpretation and mischaracterization of what I posted. I genuinely hope that she's happy and that this is what she needs. Yes, I did it in my way, but that doesn't make it ANY less genuine. I'm sorry if I don't pass your fucking PC litmus test. At the end of the day it IS just a fucking pronoun. It's the one I choose to use based on a literal view of the word. No disrespect at all was meant - just the opposite. Read that post. It was supportive, it was caring, and it was kind. If you can't get over yourself long enough to understand that someone can be genuine and still not go with the groupthink on HOW to say something like that then that's a reflection of you and everyone else who shit a brick over it.

I made an honest, warm, caring statement and some people took it the wrong way because we have a difference of opinion on which pronoun is proper under the circumstances. That's sad.

If YOU want to use that pronoun, I don't care. Honestly, if it makes you happy, that's fine. Please use it. I'm not going to tell you what pronoun YOU have to use. I may not use it, but so what? Are we not allowed to have honest differences of opinion?

Jaymole

yep, she really does not get it.

B5Erik

rbrown498

Can I ask a quick question of you, B5Erik? This isn't meant to be anything except a simple question; I'm just honestly wondering.

Between "he" and "she" only, which pronoun would you use to describe Caitlyn Jenner?

And let me add that I understand your confusion, and I understand your resistance to calling a person "he" when that individual has no male primary sexual markers (just as I am resistant to calling an individual "they"). So I'm just wondering which pronoun you'd use for Caitlyn Jenner.

B5Erik

He still has male anatomy, correct? (I don't keep up on that, so I honestly don't know, but that's the last thing I knew.)

Dan

You're walking down the street, and you accidentally bump this person, causing them to stumble a bit.
​​​​​​Do you "sorry, sir!" or "sorry, ma'am!" them?

B5Erik

I have no idea who that is.


edit to add - If you're going to tell me that he was born a woman I'd say that we're talking about two completely different issues. Hormone replacement, surgery, etc, is different than merely dressing in the typical clothing of the opposite sex and taking on those gender roles.

Dan

Yes, the difference is having the cash to do so.
Also, Jenner did all that, but you still call her a man. But you'll call this guy a man, too.
You missed the point, unsurprisingly.

(And Buck still has a vagina)

B5Erik

Did I or did I not say that I didn't know what Jenner's current status is (how far he/she has gone)? So why are you acting like I knew what old Bruce has or hasn't done? I don't give a shit about Jenner. He/She/It/They/Whatever isn't on my radar. Hasn't really been since he was on CHiPs.

I'll grant you that once you get into hormone replacement and surgery things get WAY complicated. Way TOO complicated for me to have any interest in dealing with. My life is WAY too complicated as it is right now. I don't have the energy or time to give this kind of stuff a lot of thought. So for everyone who says that I'm trying to simplify the issue and look at it as black and white - you're damned right I am!

And most people are in the same boat I am to one degree or another. (Trust me, if I told you everything that's going on in my life you'd be shocked, and maybe even saddened if you're at all empathetic.)

Expecting people to keep up on this stuff, to take the time to wrangle with all of it's complexities isn't realistic. It's kind of unfair, really.


And my comments a few posts ago still stand - I posted something with the best of intentions, giving honest support to Ellen/Elliott. Yeah, I don't feel comfortable calling a woman, "He," but so what? What does that matter? Can't we just have an honest difference of opinion? If people hadn't jumped all over me none of this discussion would have even happened. I have a right to defend myself when I'm criticized and attacked, and to expect someone to NOT respond when their motives are questioned (and that's putting it mildly) is just stupid.

Count Dooku

It isn't about who owns the house.

It's an analogy about how nobody likes shit in a swimming pool.

Seriously and honestly, even though you say it was not your intent, your first post on this subject was Trolling 101, and you got the response you should have expected. But you didn't expect it. And I respect the fact that you have hung in there and kept answering people.
But don't try and turn it around now and claim that the problem is people paying attention to what you have to say.
Again, you basically came into the thread waving a red flag. Don't complain now that people noticed and reacted.

Your posts have been supportive of Elliot Page, but you just won't give up the pronoun thing, even though you say it is the easiest and most trivial way to show support. I hope you can see where that would seem odd. If it so trivial, why not just do it?

You say that your position is not based on anything to do with trans issues, just a principled stand on behalf of the English language. I can actually appreciate that, truly.

So then, this is a lot of (what you called) "back and forth over a fucking pronoun." Yes. A lot of back and forth over something that you care so deeply about: the true meaning of pronouns in the English language. It's your choice of battle, so at least own it.

Anyways, you reply to me had a very angry tone, and I understand why. I will remind you that I have posted that there was validity to the POV you were arguing. But I know what it is like to be in a thread with a bunch of different people coming at you.

You said:
As someone who cares about words, you might want to examine more closely how the intention of your communication was derailed by your choice of words. Do you want to go through life being understood or defending yourself?

But, like I posted before, odds are this issue will never come up for you IRL So my last remark to you on this subject is: You be you, man.

DaveyJoe

I don't believe this for a second, your first post was clearly bait.

majorjoe23

The important thing to remember about the English language is it hasn’t changed or evolved in 1,500 years or so. So taking a principled stand is important.

GoldenJCJ

As long as we make as many Trans people feel like shit and less human on the pretense of defending the English language!

That seems like a worthwhile stance to take, all things considered.

B5Erik

Believe it or don't, I don't really care.

Honestly, I wasn't sure if anyone would care about the pronoun or not. I just don't believe, "He," fits for Ellen/Elliott, so I used, "She," and, "Her." But I meant everything I said in that post. I didn't post that with the intent to piss people off.

Again, if people just accepted differences of opinions then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. I didn't jump in saying, "Calling Ellen/Elliot, 'He,' is wrong! You're an idiot for using that pronoun!" I didn't say anything like that. I didn't address the pronoun at all. I just used the one I felt was closest to being accurate.

Everyone else, yourself included, jumped to wild conclusions and read subtext where there was none.

The fact that you keep this sub-topic going when I've already clarified my point and said I don't care what pronoun YOU use (I'll use the one I think is most linguistically accurate, but won't encourage you to do the same - that's up to you).

I haven't criticized anyone's use of, "He." I haven't bashed anyone for their philosophical beliefs on this one. I've accepted those views as fair and perfectly fine for the people who hold them. The same has not been afforded to me.