B5Erik

Who's trying to make a trans person feel like shit? I have read no insults or derogatory comments here (or anywhere else, for that matter).

kefrank

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. If you think a post in which I expressed empathy for your position, shared some of my own journey on trying to understand this topic, and encouraged you to consider a more open mindset was condascending...I'm not sure what I can say that you wouldn't consider condascending. I did use strong language and emphasis to disagree with your assertion that using someone's preferred pronouns is "bending over backwards" so if that was somehow too harsh, my bad. But I would humbly ask you to re-read my original post again and at least consider that maybe you're not looking at it objectively either, which would be somewhat understandable given that many other posts directed your way have been dismissive and aggressive toward you. I will continue to assert that mine was not one of them though.

DaveyJoe

I think it comes down to respect. It's hard for people to believe you have respect for trans people when you refuse to use their preferred pronoun. If someone on this forum chose MovieDude as their handle but I kept calling them MovieJerk instead, I'd face repercussions. Even if MovieDude is objectively a jerk and easily identifiable as such, I'd be suspended if I kept calling them MovieJerk. That's because it's against the rules, and those rules were made because society collectively decided that calling someone a jerk is disrespectful.

I could be right as rain to call this person a jerk, but I wouldn't be free from the consequences, as setup by the rules of the forum, or negative comments/opinions from my peers on the forum. What's happening here is that you're approaching this situation in a way that many others find disrespectful, even if you can cling to a technicality or definition of a word. Society's opinions on trans people and their pronouns are shifting in one direction and you're being left behind. You're free to carry on as you have been, but folks are going to have strong opinions that disagree with your approach, and find your behavior to be disrespectful.

B5Erik

See, we look at this completely differently.

Changing a name is far different than attempting to change the definition of a word.

I have no problem with calling Elliott, Elliott. That's fine. But I'm not going to use a less accurate word just to make someone feel better.

I'm not insulting Elliott, just choosing to be as accurate as possible. This change that she and you want me to make would make that word meaningless, in my opinion. A woman is not a man. That's not a bad thing, but people here are acting like it is. That's the part that genuinely puzzles me.

Adam Tyner

You categorically reject that a trans man is a man or that a trans woman is a woman. That goes beyond a difference of opinion. If there's a way to meet in the middle, agree-to-disagree, or "can't you see things from my perspective about how you, a trans man, are not a man and do not necessarily deserve to be referred to as such?", I don't see it. I'm not trying to be abrasive or anything, and if it comes off that way, I apologize, but I think you're hoping for others in this thread to find a middle ground that does not and cannot exist.

And yeah, deliberately misgendering* a trans individual will invariably make them feel like shit, as it's a fundamental rejection of who they are.
To look at things a different way, do you inspect the genitals of everyone you refer to as man/woman/he/him/she/her? Do you reference their birth certificates beforehand?

If the answer is "no" (and I sure hope it is!), then man/woman isn't exactly being applied in a scientific sense. You're making assumptions about someone's gender based on how they present themselves. And if someone identifies as male or female, regardless of what is or isn't dangling between that person's legs, how different is that from your perspective at the end of the day? The same level of science is being applied whether you're making assumptions or honoring someone's preferences.

majorjoe23

It's all about preventing words from becoming meaningless. Nothing else. He's not an asshole, he's a linguist!

Deftones

YouBasically everything you have said is derogatory. You can't see it so it is pointless to argue your "semantics" anymore.

Artman

If it's a coworker, using their name but not their preferred pronouns will still leave you out of a job. You don't have to believe someone is another sex (I don't) but I don't see the issue here of just addressing people as they wish to be addressed. I'm not against a debate on it in private or a forum like this, but...just saying, you'll be unemployed pretty fast if you purposefully misuse pronouns in front of someone.

d2cheer

But this thread is not about a "man" named Elliot it is about a woman pretending to be a man. She is a woman not a man not matter what she calls herself or feels she is.

It is a dumb argument.

B5Erik

Really? Based on what? A pronoun? If you understand the English language everything that I've posted about Elliott has been positive.

I'm seeing a lot of people looking at one detail ignoring the substance of what's been posted. People more interested in finger wagging and making insults than agreeing to disagree.

And this is why people think the PC culture has gone WAY too far. Total intolerance for other points of view. All other points of view are bad, m'kay?

B5Erik

No, it won't. If I'm RUDE and obnoxious about it, maybe, but not if I'm polite, courteous, and professional.

Again, no I won't.

People in real life don't always get to choose how they get addressed. For example, you don't get to be called, "Dr," if you haven't earned a PHD or a Medical degree. Some things that we would like, some things we want, just can't be because they aren't factually accurate.

If I call a very masculine looking woman, "Him," or, "He," or, "Sir," by mistake she'll be offended. It seems like it's a no-win scenario. Kobayashi Maru.

And I still don't know what's so offensive about a woman being called a woman. You don't have to be a man to be masculine. Women can be or do anything they want, including taking on masculine roles. That is the confusing part to me.

Alan Smithee

Elliott’s name in “ET” is going to be changed to Ellen.

B5Erik

clckworang

I think Erik is getting stuck somewhat on the feminist issue, but what he's failing to remember is that there are also biological males who prefer to be called she. It's not meant to be one gender is bad; it's more about identity.

My cousin has been in relationships with two trans women. I hope that's correct. They were both biological males but identified as female. I believe both were on estrogen, but neither had any intentions of having the surgery.

That's what I really don't get is identifying as an opposite sex but not wanting to have the reassignment surgery. But it's not my journey. I don't get it, but then again, I'm a gay man and don't understand why all guys aren't open to fooling around with another guy. No, gay does not equal trans, but I think it's similar in the "this is just how I am" kind of way.

I think that being a gay male - and one with a softer voice - has also given me a slightly different point of view that might in some ways be dismissive but also be supportive. While it doesn't happen as often as I've gotten older, I used to get called ma'am all the time on the phone or in the drive thru. It used to bother me so much! So much so that I went through a period that I'd avoid calling places just to not hear about it. But there was a certain point where I let go of choosing to be offended by people who were clearly not trying to be offensive. If it happens now, I just roll with it and rarely even correct the person. However, I'm also very aware that people will call me ma'am or girl derisively just because I'm gay, and in those cases, I do speak up, and yes, you know when someone is trying to be rude like that.

I think if you're truly polite and well meaning, then others should take things with a little grain of salt and not get all bothered, but if someone tells you I'm a he or I'm a she and you choose to ignore it, then you are indeed being an asshole.

DaveyJoe

I'm pretty sure that the majority of trans people, something like 8 out of 10, are men that transition to/identify as women.

Artman

Completely anecdotal, but yeah... I think we're 5 for 5 male to female transitions at my work. The HR "personal message" emails are pretty much met with a collective "ok". I probably take it for granted how inclusive we are as workplace, i'm just like "Hey, don't ask me I just work here."

TomOpus

As an aside, started watching the new season of the animated series Big Mouth. They have a transgender character this year.

Dan

I think you're exactly right that every journey is different, especially on this topic. I've been told that there's a huge financial barrier to the surgery, and there may even be other doctor- or state-imposed restrictions (you have to have identified this way for a certain amount of time, or been on the hormone treatment for a certain amount of time, or both), but also that the dysphoria isn't always related to the specific organs and that they don't always feel that that's the right solution for themselves. There's also the fact that those that come out are often faced with this kind of scrutiny along the lines of people wanting to know exactly which transition practices they've undergone already, which ones they plan to do, and which ones they won't (like bottom surgery) along with why. As seen here, many place a kind of barrier between those who are "willing" to do full transition vs. those who either can't afford to or don't feel compelled to check every box to appease those asking questions.

Agreed. And despite what the Twitter warriors say, this is generally how things go in the real world. If you misgender someone once, they'll calmly correct you. If you repeatedly do it to be a jerk, that's when things can go off the rails.
On a related note, one of the things I read from a semi-famous transwoman was that she could go to a pub in the middle of some Red state, and people would "ma'am" her all night long without second thought (point being that randoms just accepted her for how she presented herself, as a woman).
But this is also why I asked about the man's photo I posted earlier. If any of us ran into that guy, not knowing who he is, we'd call him sir (if you're so inclined to Sir/Ma'am anyone, that is). Not because it's the right thing to do (it is), but also because it's natural. The unnatural bending-over-backwards response is to ask everyone for proof of their sex or gender before you use any kind of pronoun or gendered response to them. You go with your instinct, and if you get it wrong, they'll either roll their eyes or correct you. Generally, the videos you see of people getting angry is after they've been repeatedly provoked.

I haven't looked at the studies in awhile, but I think you're right. I recall one study having a thesis that the split was potentially a genetic/biological phenomenon.

Groucho

Really good interview with Page in Time magazine:

https://time.com/5947032/elliot-page/

urrutiap

Ellen Page was born a woman. Shes still Ellen Page. Period.


Same with Bruce Jenner that was born and raised as a male.

You were born a male, Bruce Jenner. Same with Ellen Page born as a female.

Noonan

Weird, I thought legal name changes were fairly common.

MLBFan24

The only problem I have with the Time magazine piece is...

...what is up with the shitty clothing? Put on some nice clothing for a photoshoot

DaveyJoe

Well I guess that settles it.

Groucho

That's quite a gestation period! The poor mom!!!

Norm de Plume

I'm reminded of another equally obnoxious, unequivocal, and incorrect asseveration about crowd sizes.