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Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

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Old 07-19-10 | 08:05 PM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by slop101
I especially like the idea of it being analogous of movie making and the relationship between the filmmaker and the audience.

And as stated, all of it being a dream explains away my one major criticism, that every other character besides Cobb was underdeveloped and almost peripheral.
Wow, now I feel smart since I said that a few days ago here:

http://forum.dvdtalk.com/10271091-post137.html

I usually don't pick up on things like that, but it stood out to me.
Old 07-19-10 | 08:27 PM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by shadowhawk2020
Wow, now I feel smart since I said that a few days ago here:

http://forum.dvdtalk.com/10271091-post137.html

I usually don't pick up on things like that, but it stood out to me.
Yeah your post struck a chord with me and works with most of the theories, and really explains the lack of character development, which I took issue with. Unlike the author of that review though I wasn't ready to pin the final scene as a dream. Everything from the opening frame until then, yes, but the entire film being a dream just seems too much for some reason. It's odd to think that not a single frame of film took place in reality.

I still think Michael Caine marked Dom for Inception so he could return to his kids, but doesn't really jive if the final scene is still a dream. Maybe he just moved up a level from Limbo and requires another attempt to get him one step closer to reality?? Damn I need to see this again.
Old 07-19-10 | 10:11 PM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by slop101
Pretty solid theory from CHUD on why 100% of Inception takes place in a dream:

[spoilerized for space]
Spoiler:
Every single moment of Inception is a dream. I think that in a couple of years this will become the accepted reading of the film, and differing interpretations will have to be skillfully argued to be even remotely considered. The film makes this clear, and it never holds back the truth from audiences. Some find this idea to be narratively repugnant, since they think that a movie where everything is a dream is a movie without stakes, a movie where the audience is wasting their time.

Except that this is exactly what Nolan is arguing against. The film is a metaphor for the way that Nolan as a director works, and what he's ultimately saying is that the catharsis found in a dream is as real as the catharsis found in a movie is as real as the catharsis found in life. Inception is about making movies, and cinema is the shared dream that truly interests the director.

I believe that Inception is a dream to the point where even the dream-sharing stuff is a dream. Dom Cobb isn't an extractor. He can't go into other people's dreams. He isn't on the run from the Cobol Corporation. At one point he tells himself this, through the voice of Mal, who is a projection of his own subconscious. She asks him how real he thinks his world is, where he's being chased across the globe by faceless corporate goons.

She asks him that in a scene that we all know is a dream, but Inception lets us in on this elsewhere. Michael Caine's character implores Cobb to return to reality, to wake up. During the chase in Mombasa, Cobb tries to escape down an alleyway, and the two buildings between which he's running begin closing in on him - a classic anxiety dream moment. When he finally pulls himself free he finds Ken Watanabe's character waiting for him, against all logic. Except dream logic.

Much is made in the film about totems, items unique to dreamers that can be used to tell when someone is actually awake or asleep. Cobb's totem is a top, which spins endlessly when he's asleep, and the fact that the top stops spinning at many points in the film is claimed by some to be evidence that Cobb is awake during those scenes. The problem here is that the top wasn't always Cobb's totem - he got it from his wife, who killed herself because she believed that they were still living in a dream. There's more than a slim chance that she's right - note that when Cobb remembers her suicide she is, bizarrely, sitting on a ledge opposite the room they rented. You could do the logical gymnastics required to claim that Mal simply rented another room across the alleyway, but the more realistic notion here is that it's a dream, with the gap between the two lovers being a metaphorical one made literal. When Mal jumps she leaves behind the top, and if she was right about the world being a dream, the fact that it spins or doesn't spin is meaningless. It's a dream construct anyway. There's no way to use the top as a proof of reality.

Watching the film with this eye you can see the dream logic unfolding. As is said in the movie, dreams seem real in the moment and it's only when you've woken up that things seem strange. The film's 'reality' sequences are filled with moments that, on retrospect, seem strange or unlikely or unexplained. Even the basics of the dream sharing technology is unbelievably vague, and I don't think that's just because Nolan wants to keep things streamlined. It's because Cobb's unconscious mind is filling it in as he goes along.

There's more, but I would have to watch the film again with a notebook to get all the evidence (all of it in plain sight). The end seems without a doubt to be a dream - from the dreamy way the film is shot and edited once Cobb wakes up on the plane all the way through to him coming home to find his two kids in the exact position and in the exact same clothes that he kept remembering them, it doesn't matter if the top falls, Cobb is dreaming.

That Cobb is dreaming and still finds his catharsis (that he can now look at the face of his kids) is the point. It's important to realize that Inception is a not very thinly-veiled autobiographical look at how Nolan works. In a recent red carpet interview, Leonardo DiCaprio - who was important in helping Nolan get the script to the final stages - compares the movie not to The Matrix or some other mindfuck movie but Fellini's 8 1/2. This is probably the second most telling thing DiCaprio said during the publicity tour for the film, with the first being that he based Cobb on Nolan. 8 1/2 is totally autobiographical for Fellini, and it's all about an Italian director trying to overcome his block and make a movie (a science fiction movie, even). It's a film about filmmaking, and so is Inception.

The heist team quite neatly maps to major players in a film production. Cobb is the director while Arthur, the guy who does the research and who sets up the places to sleep, is the producer. Ariadne, the dream architect, is the screenwriter - she creates the world that will be entered. Eames is the actor (this is so obvious that the character sits at an old fashioned mirrored vanity, the type which stage actors would use). Yusuf is the technical guy; remember, the Oscar come from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, and it requires a good number of technically minded people to get a movie off the ground. Nolan himself more or less explains this in the latest issue of Film Comment, saying 'There are a lot of striking similarities [between what the team does and the putting on of a major Hollywood movie]. When for instance the team is out on the street they've created, surveying it, that's really identical with what we do on tech scouts before we shoot.'

That leaves two key figures. Saito is the money guy, the big corporate suit who fancies himself a part of the game. And Fischer, the mark, is the audience. Cobb, as a director, takes Fischer through an engaging, stimulating and exciting journey, one that leads him to an understanding about himself. Cobb is the big time movie director (or rather the best version of that - certainly not a Michael Bay) who brings the action, who brings the spectacle, but who also brings the meaning and the humanity and the emotion.

The movies-as-dreams aspect is part of why Inception keeps the dreams so grounded. In the film it's explained that playing with the dream too much alerts the dreamer to the falseness around him; this is just another version of the suspension of disbelief upon which all films hinge. As soon as the audience is pulled out of the movie by some element - an implausible scene, a ludicrous line, a poor performance - it's possible that the cinematic dream spell is broken completely, and they're lost.

As a great director, Cobb is also a great artist, which means that even when he's creating a dream about snowmobile chases, he's bringing something of himself into it. That's Mal. It's the auterist impulse, the need to bring your own interests, obsessions and issues into a movie. It's what the best directors do. It's very telling that Nolan sees this as kind of a problem; I suspect another filmmaker might have cast Mal as the special element that makes Cobb so successful.

Inception is such a big deal because it's what great movies strive to do. You walk out of a great film changed, with new ideas planted in your head, with your neural networks subtly rewired by what you've just seen. On a meta level Inception itself does this, with audiences leaving the theater buzzing about the way it made them feel and perceive. New ideas, new thoughts, new points of view are more lasting a souvenir of a great movie than a ticket stub.

It's possible to view Fischer, the mark, as not the audience but just as the character that is being put through the movie that is the dream. To be honest, I haven't quite solidified my thought on Fischer's place in the allegorical web, but what's important is that the breakthrough that Fischer has in the ski fortress is real. Despite the fact that his father is not there, despite the fact that the pinwheel was never by his father's bedside, the emotions that Fischer experiences are 100 percent genuine. It doesn't matter that the movie you're watching isn't a real story, that it's just highly paid people putting on a show - when a movie moves you, it truly moves you. The tears you cry during Up are totally real, even if absolutely nothing that you see on screen has ever existed in the physical world.

For Cobb there's a deeper meaning to it all. While Cobb doesn't have daddy issues (that we know of), he, like Fischer, is dealing with a loss. He's trying to come to grips with the death of his wife*; Fischer's journey reflects Cobb's while not being a complete point for point reflection. That's important for Nolan, who is making films that have personal components - that talk about things that obviously interest or concern him - but that aren't actually about him. Other filmmakers (Fellini) may make movies that are thinly veiled autobiography, but that's not what Nolan or Cobb are doing. The movies (or dreams) they're putting together reflect what they're going through but aren't easily mapped on to them. Talking to Film Comment, Nolan says he has never been to psychoanalysis. 'I think I use filmmaking for that purpose. I have a passionate relationship to what I do.'

In a lot of ways Inception is a bookend to last summer's Inglorious Basterds. In that film Quentin Tarantino celebrated the ways that cinema could change the world, while in Inception Nolan is examining the ways that cinema, the ultimate shared dream, can change an individual. The entire film is a dream, within the confines of the movie itself, but in a more meta sense it's Nolan's dream. He's dreaming Cobb, and finding his own moments of revelation and resolution, just as Cobb is dreaming Fischer and finding his own catharsis and change.

The whole film being a dream isn't a cop out or a waste of time, but an ultimate expression of the film's themes and meaning. It's all fake. But it's all very, very real. And that's something every single movie lover understands implicitly and completely.

* it's really worth noting that if you accept that the whole movie is a dream that Mal may not be dead. She could have just left Cobb. The mourning that he is experiencing deep inside his mind is no less real if she's alive or dead - he has still lost her.

Thoughts?
You know what? I think that is totally right. 100% on the mark. Unfortunately, I still think it makes the movie unsuccessful, because while the movie may work as a dream, it still doesn't work as a movie to the extent that Nolan wants it to. If Leo is comparing it to 8 1/2, then Inception falls far short of that mark. David Lynch has explored the "dream as cinema" motif better in Mulholland Drive. Spielberg gave us a dream as climax and catharsis in Minority Report. Fellini of course didn't even bother to veil his surrealism in the cloak of dreams, putting himself completely out there with 8 1/2.

If the movie is all a dream, and that theory makes an excellent argument that it is, then that gives us a good explanation as to why only Cobb has any backstory or depth. But that's still an intellectual rationalization that doesn't make the movie any more satisfying to me as an audience member. It's like what Dennis says to Dee in It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia when she tries to tell him a funny dream she had: "I hate hearing other people's dreams. It's like looking at someone else's vacation photos. If I'm not in them or no one's having sex, I'm just not interested."

But yeah, I think that theory is spot on in terms of what the film is actually about.
Old 07-19-10 | 10:40 PM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

8 1/2 huh? You know, I don't think anyone pointed it out but the last scene with DiCaprio in the house I thought he was wearing the exact outfit that we have seen Nolan wear in interviews. They also keep their hairstyles the same.

I think the problem with Inception, especially in regards to comparing it to 8 1/2, is that it wasn't searching for any of the deeper meanings or philosophies that other films have achieved. Let's say that it was a dream... how does it change anything? What does it say or comment on about mankind?
Old 07-19-10 | 11:10 PM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

I enjoyed the heck out of the movie, and am under the impression that Cobb was still dreaming. I think his wife had it right, which makes the ending kind of bittersweet for me.
Old 07-19-10 | 11:36 PM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Just got back and loved it, I thought the first 20 minutes or so were pretty weak and I was worried the movie wouldnt live up to the praise but once it gets going it becomes an awesome ride all the way up the end. Just an awesome movie.

9/10
Old 07-19-10 | 11:39 PM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Eh, I don't think CHUD is right. But then again, technically nobody is right (or wrong). It seems far more logical to me that he is either in reality, or everything from Cobb going to sleep in Mombassa threw the end is a dream. The correct answer is always the simplest.
Old 07-20-10 | 12:36 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Blu Man
Eh, I don't think CHUD is right. But then again, technically nobody is right (or wrong). It seems far more logical to me that he is either in reality, or everything from Cobb going to sleep in Mombassa threw the end is a dream. The correct answer is always the simplest.
I thought that the Mombassa top spin being interrupted was a huge clue and frankly I was worried. Speaking for myself, I was glad to leave that theory behind once a few scenes without Cobb passed by, esp. the hallway scene (how can Cobb dream within a dream and still dreaming one level up?)

For me, the end was reality. The top never wobbled in a dream. Great movie.
Old 07-20-10 | 01:00 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by SuckaMC

For me, the end was reality. The top never wobbled in a dream. Great movie.
But the top becomes irrelevant to Cobb once you realize it's actually his wife's totem and not his. Recall how everyone was careful not to let someone else even touch their totem. IOW, the top is unreliable as a totem.

Last edited by slop101; 07-20-10 at 01:08 AM.
Old 07-20-10 | 01:03 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Blu Man
Eh, I don't think CHUD is right. But then again, technically nobody is right (or wrong). It seems far more logical to me that he is either in reality, or everything from Cobb going to sleep in Mombassa threw the end is a dream. The correct answer is always the simplest.
I know that the top spin is interrupted in Mombassa, but can someone give me a compelling story reason as to why it becomes a dream at that moment and not before? It seems like a totally arbitrary point in the story to have it become all a dream afterwards.
Old 07-20-10 | 02:14 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

This is certainly not meant to offend anyone, but it does kind of amaze me that some viewers "need" to believe in the reality theory to reaffirm that their film-going experience was enjoyable.

It's interesting, once art is out there, and it touches you in some way, you do kind of feel an ownership to it, to that feeling it brought out in you.

And I've been there, the whole "the whole story was a dream, it didn't happen" and have always felt it was such a cheap way out of telling a real story.

Nolan here is expanding my viewpoints however, I think I prefer Inception to have been nothing but a dream and love it for it.
Old 07-20-10 | 03:50 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

I honestly don't see how Nolan is any better of a director than Michael Bay. I found the action to be blurry, full of cuts, and hard to follow. It was also hammer-over-the-head monotonous.

And the film as a whole seemed to be incomprehensible just for the sake of being incomprehensible. Really, I walked out of it feeling like I saw a remake of Matrix Reloaded.
Old 07-20-10 | 04:30 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

In what way was it incomprehensible? I don't understand the comments from people saying that it was confusing or hard to follow. Nolan lays everything out methodically, specifically so the audience doesn't get lost.

And ardathbey, I agree with you. A movie that takes place in the "real world" is still as a fictional as a dream or a movie about a dream. Perhaps it's the fact that a movie about a dream is a fiction about a fiction that turns people off to it. After reading that CHUD article, I'm definitely in favor of the whole film having been a dream.
Old 07-20-10 | 07:02 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by lamphorn
I honestly don't see how Nolan is any better of a director than Michael Bay.
Wow.
Old 07-20-10 | 07:23 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by lamphorn
I honestly don't see how Nolan is any better of a director than Michael Bay. I found the action to be blurry, full of cuts, and hard to follow. It was also hammer-over-the-head monotonous.

And the film as a whole seemed to be incomprehensible just for the sake of being incomprehensible. Really, I walked out of it feeling like I saw a remake of Matrix Reloaded.
...this is no way a negative comment to Nolan. BUT....the story is straight forward in the best way. It's execution is complexly directed but...all you have to do is listen and...yeah..it's ez.
Old 07-20-10 | 07:35 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Yeah people saying it was hard to follow just confuse me... Its not as simple as most films and does make you think a bit, but in no way is it not a pretty straight forward movie, although does allow for different interpretations of it (one of the reasons I enjoyed it so much). Hell my wife slept for the first hour or so and still was pretty much able to follow it (my wife has a tendency to sleep in most movies so).
Old 07-20-10 | 07:36 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Agreed, it was very straight forward. I do agree that some of the action scenes were lackluster though (but the multi-layered effect was always cool). Unlike Bay, though, Nolan films generally have a relatively unique story told with excellent, sustained pacing and generally don't hold the audience's hand (though I would argue, Inception held the audiences hand more than it needed to.)

I just wish he'd cut out his use of numbers. Everytime he mentions numbers it annoys me after the fact (number of dead bodies in The Dark Knight, how long each layer lasts in Inception.)

Last edited by RichC2; 07-20-10 at 07:48 AM.
Old 07-20-10 | 07:39 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by ardathbey
This is certainly not meant to offend anyone, but it does kind of amaze me that some viewers "need" to believe in the reality theory to reaffirm that their film-going experience was enjoyable.

It's interesting, once art is out there, and it touches you in some way, you do kind of feel an ownership to it, to that feeling it brought out in you.

And I've been there, the whole "the whole story was a dream, it didn't happen" and have always felt it was such a cheap way out of telling a real story.

Nolan here is expanding my viewpoints however, I think I prefer Inception to have been nothing but a dream and love it for it.
I think people are just so used to thinking of the "it was all just a dream" ending as a cop-out ending. If LOST had ended with it all being Hurley's dream, that would have sucked.

But if Inception was all a dream, partially a dream, or the ending was still a dream, I don't see how that devalues the film at all.
Old 07-20-10 | 07:39 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

I have to agree with the others. The movie was pretty simple to follow, Nolan did a great job explaining things and the pacing of that information drip, it's the interpretation that is complex.

Originally Posted by Suprmallet
After reading that CHUD article, I'm definitely in favor of the whole film having been a dream.
I agree. It's a great article and I want to agree with it 100%, but I'd like to see the movie again first.
Old 07-20-10 | 07:43 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Thanks for the link to the CHUD article, slop101.
Interesting read, though I'm not sure I agree with it completely.

I love that Inception can generate so many diverse theories and ideas, nearly all of which seem to have to some substance. To me, that's the mark of a well-made film.
Old 07-20-10 | 08:05 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

I totally agree with the CHUD article. It appeared obvious to me that
Spoiler:
the entire thing was a dream when the walls started to close in on Dom during the chase through the city. The shot where Mal jumps out the window was also weird since they were supposed to be in the same room. That combined with the overall glossing over of facts like how the technology works and how Saito can clear Dom's name with just a phone call. It wasn't poor writing, it was simply "dream" writing where things just make sense as we go, yet don't add up in the end.

The real question is what level of the dream world Dom is in at the end. Did Mal really escape to the real world when she jumped? Was the entire thing just a dream overall and Dom was asleep in bed making the whole thing up? Can't wait to see this again. With Memento and Prestige I enjoyed them much more upon 2nd viewing, I feel Inception will be the same situation.
Old 07-20-10 | 08:06 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

It's one thing if you say a show or movie that has nothing to do with dreams was "only a dream". That's a huge cop out.

But everyone knew this movie was about dreams, so IMO the potential was always there for it to all be a dream.
Old 07-20-10 | 08:07 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

It's hard to make it not feel like a cop out with the "it's all a dream" finale, it did make Mulholland Drive stronger, though. And oddly enough, spoiling that isn't really a spoiler
Old 07-20-10 | 08:58 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Suprmallet
I know that the top spin is interrupted in Mombassa, but can someone give me a compelling story reason as to why it becomes a dream at that moment and not before? It seems like a totally arbitrary point in the story to have it become all a dream afterwards.

I may not have a compelling story to give you but the first thing that came to my mind is that he needed that drug to sleep, to get what he wanted. It has to be a dream from there on. He knew he could do it but it was the drug he needed to inception.
Old 07-20-10 | 09:15 AM
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Re: Inception (Nolan, 2010)- The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Solid Snake PAC
...this is no way a negative comment to Nolan. BUT....the story is straight forward in the best way. It's execution is complexly directed but...all you have to do is listen and...yeah..it's ez.
I agree. Because it's such an original but highly imaginative story, there were times where felt it was losing me, but Nolan handled it so expertly that I was never irritated or totally bewildered. It seemed perfectly balanced in this way. Hints are given, then explained..there was an unfolding of ideas.

Now convoluted is The Matrix Reloaded and that Architect...don't get me started. I don't think the Wachowski's even knew the meaning of that stupidness.


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