Not necessarily, I thought Sweeney Todd was great.(and to a lesser extent Corpse Bride) But yeah, certainly his output since Sleepy Hollow hasn't been very good. Every indication about Alice was that it was another Charlie... I certainly wasn't expecting anything else. (And I don't mind him doing the big paycheck films either) This one I was holding out hope it would be a return to form... and I still think it'll be better than his other recent films... but it sounds like a mixed bag. But at least it has the Burton visuals and Elfman music going for it.

I agree that Sweeney Todd was very good, but let's face it, that movie was pre-made before Tim Burton ever shot a frame of it.

That's just it. I don't think Burton's direction did anything to make the movie good.

If Pacino became the self-parodying actor, does Burton qualify as a self-parodying director? There's a difference between having a directing style and having every fucking movie you make look the exact same.

Just so we're clear, you don't think a director has any effect on a script's translation to the screen?

Yeah I think Sweeney Todd is great directing, it was the one film he made that deserved an oscar nom for him. The play was way more theatrical and funny, almost like Rocky Horror. A lot goofier. (The BBC made for TV film is a joke compared to Burton's)

Burton transformed it into a legit film. That takes talent. He made it a brooding and moody drama with more sadness and feeling. That is a huge risk because of how absurd the material is, it could have been a bomb.

Then he had Johnny Depp, a non-singer doing it. That is another risk, the whole thing is a musical and they're risking it on a non-singer. For me it all clicked. His directing and camera never got in the way of the material. It was just great, mature filmmaking. Stepping outside comfort zone has a tendency to revitalize people.

Now for his recent failures, it isn't wrong that he keeps using Depp, it's wrong that he keeps wasting him with bad scripts and stale Danny Elfman scores.

No, I do, and I think Burton did a good job. My point, though, is that Sweeney Todd was great before Burton was ever making movies. When he doesn't have top notch, grade A material to work with, he blows it.

And, more importantly, he seems to have no clue whether material is good or bad. Or maybe he just doesn't give a shit.

I think he does know, and has been purposefully choosing big-paycheck jobs (Planet of the Apes, Charlie, Alice, etc) as they've been offered. Like I said, I don't blame him, don't know the reasons (don't care!)... but unlike others, I don't let it suddenly turn me against everything he does, and has done before. That's a college-level mindset. And I used to be one of those...it's easy to do in film theory classes - not so easy when you're in the real world.

I don't hate everything he's ever done. In fact, I like many of his movies. But his career has become such a black hole that I really wish he'd just stop. The good movies he made are enough.

I guess I just don't see it so negatively... he had five yrs between Ed Wood and Sleepy Hollow!

FWIW, I just don't see this movie doing that well. I am sure I will like it, but Burton's current output seems more for people who value quirkiness and a production design over actual story. I'm not saying I do, but I have a higher tolerance for that kind of stuff than most people. Furthermore, this will be one of those movies that relies heavily on people "getting it," and this series is so "cult following" based that I doubt anyone truly knows what to look for and enjoy. In short, it's asking a bit much for what it is.

I don't think Burton is lazy, I just think he doesn't care about storytelling as nearly as much as he cares about visuals. He'd probably be better suited to lower budget "arthouse" movies, but he seems to direct these big "tentpole" pictures that disappoint more often than not, because Burton just isn't good at that sort of thing. So we get great looking movies, but not very entertaining ones.

^ That's why I'm thinking Frankenweenie will be better than this. Smaller, more personal project.

What about Big fish? Personally thats my favorite of his movies. I myself am a huge Tim Burton fan so my opinion is skewed. Ill watch anything he directs, sure his past few fims have been visually stunning and not much else, when they could have been so much more. which im guessing is why people hate him so much. But at least his films are making money.

And as KC said, hopefully his more personal projects will provide to be better.

I think Frankenweenie is going to bomb big, very few kids want to see a B&W movie, and I don't think their parents do either.

I watched episodes of the original show when Sy-Fy used to air reruns and I liked the dark elements of it. When I saw the trailer, I hated they decided to go the comedy route.

Boxoffice.com is predicting $33 million.

Fuck the kids. I think it looks better than anything he's done in years. I doubt it'll outright bomb.

that goddamn Frankenweenie trailer is being played ad nauseum at nearly every recent film I've been to, to the point if I see it again, I will enact bodily harm to the person sitting immediately next to me at the theater.

Wah-wah.

I've only seen it twice, before both IMAX 3D screenings of The Avengers I've attended. If we want to bitch about trailers being played ad nauseum, I've seen the Men in Black 3 trailer before every movie I've seen within the past two-to-three months. Every time I see it, the shittier it looks.

And I'll probably see both trailers again when I see Dark Shadows sometime this week in IMAX.

^ I just hope we don't starte getting bombarded with shitty trailers for fall movies like what happened with "Devil" a couple of years ago. I swear that managed to play in front of EVERY movie I saw that summer.

Well, this movie was awful.

I was surprised the Times gave it a good review. Metacritic sits solidly at 53, which means I will never need to see this.

(It needed to have a 107 for me to consider).

way to think for yourself.

So was it as mostly unfunny as the trailers or worse still?

I am not suprised!