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Old 04-26-12, 03:24 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

So, I wonder how this will look on home video. Will have the same jarring difference like the Star War prequels? I was hoping for a more seamless transition between all the movies.
Old 04-26-12, 03:32 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

I actually look forward to the 48 fps revolution!
Don't count on that ever happening. Do people honestly believe that studios want to spend even more money on film? You're talking at least twice as much that has to be used, which makes it far more expensive than even 24fps film. Digital already achieves what 48fps film is trying to achieve. In fact, digital could be shot at 60fps far cheaper than film can be done at 48fps. If I'm incorrect on this issue let me know.

I'm certainly not against film at all. But studios don't want film at all anymore, and I don't think Peter Jackson or anyone else is going to get studios to agree to buy twice as much film, and pay even more money to people in post production. Think of how large the film reels would be, and how much extra cost would be involved in that.

I believe Roger Ebert touted Maxivision 48 years ago.

Will have the same jarring difference like the Star War prequels?
There are many reasons for that, mostly having to due with very early digital camera technology. Digital has come a long, long way. There was also far too much CG in the prequels.
Old 04-26-12, 04:01 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

This is being shot on a new brand of celluloid?
Old 04-26-12, 04:08 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

Originally Posted by Dr. DVD
This is being shot on a new brand of celluloid?
No. It's all digital - being shot with this camera.
Old 04-26-12, 04:11 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

Originally Posted by Terrell
Don't count on that ever happening. Do people honestly believe that studios want to spend even more money on film?
Originally Posted by Dr. DVD
This is being shot on a new brand of celluloid?
It's not being shot on film. It's being shot on digital cameras at 5K and 48fps in 3D. And going to projected on 120hz digital projectors at 48fps.

The 48fps "revolution" will be done via digital cameras. They're going with 48fps likely due to compatibility with 24fps film and digital formats (Blu-ray, etc.) It's easier to convert 48fps to 24fps than to convert 60fps to 24fps. It's still a drastic jump, and also saves some space over a 60fps video.
Old 04-26-12, 04:13 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

You would think that Jackson would want The Hobbit films to look consistent with the LOTR trilogy.
Old 04-26-12, 04:27 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

It's not being shot on film. It's being shot on digital cameras at 5K and 48fps in 3D.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. I thought this was the same setup Ebert was touting years ago. I didn't realize it was digital. But if I may ask, why not 60fps instead of 48, since it's digital?
Old 04-26-12, 04:32 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

Originally Posted by Terrell
Ah, thanks for the clarification. I thought this was the same setup Ebert was touting years ago. I didn't realize it was digital. But if I may ask, why not 60fps instead of 48, since it's digital?
Whoa whoa whoa. 48fps is one thing... but 60fps? That's crazy!
Old 04-26-12, 05:01 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

So when is this trailer supposed to be released online? I want to see for myself if I notice the difference.
Old 04-26-12, 05:02 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

Originally Posted by Terrell
Ah, thanks for the clarification. I thought this was the same setup Ebert was touting years ago. I didn't realize it was digital. But if I may ask, why not 60fps instead of 48, since it's digital?
As I mentioned before, 48fps is more easily backwards compatible with 24fps. Not every digital projector can handle 48fps, and they are still going to make film prints for some cinemas.

There's also Blu-ray to consider. Blu-ray 3D can only handle a maximum 1080p/24; it can do 60fps, but only at 720p:
http://netblender.com/main/resources...ng-blu-ray-3d/

Even standard 2D Blu-ray really can only handle 24p; it can do 1080i/60, but not 1080p/60 or even 1080p/30.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Video


Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
You would think that Jackson would want The Hobbit films to look consistent with the LOTR trilogy.
Jackson has been enamored with the RED cameras since before the RED ONE was released. He shot a short film using preproduction models of the RED ONE, shot this last feature on RED ONE, and pre-ordered the RED EPIC cameras for this shoot.

He is keeping the look consistent in terms of using largely the same crew, recreating the sets/costumes exactly and making new sets/costumes in a similar style. He's likely shooting the film with similar lighting effects and such. The post production and digital grading and color correction will likely try and match what was done on LOTR. But as he's going for 3D, there really wasn't any chance of using a film camera for this film, and if you're going digital and 3D, why not go whole hog and add 48fps to that mix.
Old 04-26-12, 05:17 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

Originally Posted by kgrogers1979
So when is this trailer supposed to be released online? I want to see for myself if I notice the difference.
The trailer for the film has been out for some time, you can view it at Apple Trailers:
http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/wb/thehobbit/

Or on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOGsB9dORBg

AFAIK, that trailer is a 24p downconversion though.

The 10 minute preview at CinemaCon was an exclusive screening for exhibitors and press of rough/unfinished footage. That is not going to show up online for the general public to view.
Old 04-26-12, 06:03 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

Whoa whoa whoa. 48fps is one thing... but 60fps? That's crazy!
Hey, video games do it. In fact, they're best as 60fps. Then again, a video game is not a film.
Old 04-26-12, 06:43 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

The biggest cost factor for doing the films at a higher frame rate is the effects. They have to pay double for rendering double the amount of frames. Cameron wanted to do Avatar at 60fps or 48fps but Fox said no way based on the additional cost of more frame rendering for effects. But, seeing that Avatar made a shitload, you can expect the sequels to use 60fps.

I'm not sure how the 48 to 24 conversion works, but I assume that it is just removing half the frames. Your film prints, dvds and Blu Rays are going to be the 24fps version. Unless they figure out a way to do 48fps via firmware. So the fear of matching the previous films shouldn't bother anyone, as the trailer showed it looks fine at 24fps and seems to match the older films look pretty well.
Old 04-26-12, 09:03 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

Originally Posted by ScissorPuppy
The biggest cost factor for doing the films at a higher frame rate is the effects. They have to pay double for rendering double the amount of frames. Cameron wanted to do Avatar at 60fps or 48fps but Fox said no way based on the additional cost of more frame rendering for effects. But, seeing that Avatar made a shitload, you can expect the sequels to use 60fps.
In this interview, Cameron discusses which framerate he prefers, and which he'll actually shoot in, as well as the additional FX costs higher framerates entail:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/new...-frames-237522
But as for choosing between 48—which Peter Jackson has selected for production of The Hobbit—and 60, Cameron left that for the industry to discuss.... Cameron said, “If the exhibitors will adopt the idea of a dual standard, than I’ll probably want to shoot 60. If they don’t, then I will have to look very carefully at the pros and cons of 60 and 48.”

“The trick in the near term is going to be to not have a big upward inflection in the cost of visual effects,” he explained... "You can’t expect people to run off adopting a higher frame rate if it is going to cost an [additional] 10 percent of their FX costs, which are already pretty high. We have to get it down to 1 percent or so, which I think is achievable.”
An additional 10% for double the frames rendered seems reasonable to me, but we'll see if the costs can get lowered.

Originally Posted by ScissorPuppy
I'm not sure how the 48 to 24 conversion works, but I assume that it is just removing half the frames.
It's removing every other frame, and digitally adding some motion blur, as 24fps is too slow without motion blur to smooth it out.

60fps would be much trickier, as staggering the frame removed would cause judder, the same as when converting 24fps to 60fps. You'd have to use interpolated frames or something.
Old 04-27-12, 08:48 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

Peter Jackson responds to complaints about 'The Hobbit' footage

Peter Jackson says the negative reaction this week over new technology he’s using to shoot The Hobbit won’t hold him back, and he hopes moviegoers will give it a try and judge for themselves.

“Nobody is going to stop,” he said. “This technology is going to keep evolving.”

He hopes critics of the format will change their minds when they see the finished film.


“At first it’s unusual because you’ve never seen a movie like this before. It’s literally a new experience, but you know, that doesn’t last the entire experience of the film; not by any stretch, after 10 minutes or so,” Jackson tells EW. “That’s a different experience than if you see a fast-cutting montage at a technical presentation.”

So what does he say to people who just decide they don’t like the glossy new look of the format he’s using?

“I can’t say anything,” Jackson acknowledges. “Just like I can’t say anything to someone who doesn’t like fish. You can’t explain why fish tastes great and why they should enjoy it.”

In every second of a motion picture is made up of 24 images, or “frames,” but Jackson is shooting his two Hobbit films at 48 frames per second, which he says creates a more lifelike picture and will make 3-D less of a strain on the eyes.

But when Warner Bros. showed off 10 minutes of footage this week at CinemaCon, the annual convention for theater owners, many attendees complained that this version of Middle Earth looked more like a movie set than the atmospheric, textured world seen in The Lord of the Rings trilogy.

When it debuts Dec. 14., The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey will be the first major performance for projection at 48 frames per second. This week’s showcase was just an audition, but Jackson says: “There can only ever be a real reaction, a truthful reaction when people actually have a chance to see a complete narrative on a particular film.”

Critics in the press who disliked the look vastly outnumbered supporters, with some comparing the footage to the brightly lit, plastic look of TV news or soap operas.

Many representatives from smaller theater chains, unwilling to speak on the record, grumbled privately about the cost of upgrading their projection equipment (which could be thousands of dollars per screen) to accommodate something they fear could attract a backlash from customers.

Jackson, however, says he noticed one thing in the criticism: People seemed to like it more as the show went on.

“A couple of the more negative commenters from CinemaCon said that in the Gollum and Bilbo scene [which took place later in the presentation] they didn’t mind it and got used to that,” Jackson says. “That was the same 48 frames the rest of the reel was. I just wonder if it they were getting into the dialogue, the characters and the story. That’s what happens in the movie. You settle into it.”

The Hobbit has become the touchstone in a larger conversation happening within the film industry about how to make movies more immersive and appealing.

While Jackson and Avatar‘s James Camera are advocates, not all directors are sold on the 48 frames format. Ang Lee – who was at CinemaCon to show footage from his upcoming 3-D epic Life of Pi – told EW he hadn’t seen The Hobbit presentation but worries that 48-frames’ ability to make 3-D more palatable may not be enough to justify it. “I have mixed feelings. I don’t think 48-frames solves everything. Each time you solve a problem you can bring in others — because you make the problem look more clear, maybe, ” he said with a laugh. “It takes time. It sounds like a good idea, but I’m a little skeptical.”

Despite the criticism at CinemaCon, Jackson and Warner Bros. managed to avoid losing any major support from exhibitors they need to get this format in front of audiences. The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, debuts Dec. 14, and the follow-up, The Hobbit: There and Back Again, comes out a year later.

Large exhibitors remained committed to at least giving 48-frames a try, based on Jackson’s track record as an innovator. Amy Miles, CEO of Regal Entertainment Group, said she hoped to upgrade between 2,500-2,700 of the company’s 3-D projectors to show films at 48 frames per second.

“At end of the day, we have to do everything we can to widen that experience gap between what you see in the theater and what you see in the home,” Miles told EW. “Bringing the option to our customer is what we’re doing. Ultimately, let’s be clear, that’s who decides what’s going to be successful going forward.”

Dan Fellman, president of domestic distribution for Warner Bros., said the studio remains undaunted by the criticism, and suggested audiences may just need time to get used to the new presentation. “It might not initially be accepted by all, but eventually [Jackson] feels it will be and eventually it can only improve,” he said.

Fellman also pointed out that some of the Hobbit footage was unfinished. In a pre-taped intro, Jackson warned the audience that many visual effects were not yet in place. Fellman said the rawness of the material may have been at least partly responsible for the negative response. “I think by the time he presents this film finished, the majority of moviegoers will accept it and be pleased,” Fellman said.

The studio won’t have to bet its entire box office earnings on the foundation of 48 frames per second. The Hobbit: The Unexpected Journey will be available in six different ways: 3-D, 2-D, and IMAX 3-D, each one in both the traditional 24-frames style and the new 48-frames version.

“There will be plenty of options out there,” Fellman said.
Old 04-28-12, 02:55 AM
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Re: The Hobbit

Good for PJ!

Personally, I find all the whining about this whole topic to be more than a little childish.

Imagine if the Internet had been around in first half of the 1900's. People would have seen the advent of color and widescreen, and boohooed about how it ruined the whole "cinematic" experience. All those silly garish colors distracting from the film, and things happening clear over on the edge of that ridiculously wide screen! Unthinkable. Give me Academy Ratio Black and White!

Yes, 48fps is different from 24. That doesn't make it worse.

Personally, I look forward to 48fps, and other continuing technological advancements in filmmaking. I just hope I get to see The Hobbit that way.
Old 04-28-12, 08:59 AM
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Re: The Hobbit

Originally Posted by RoboDad
Good for PJ!

Personally, I find all the whining about this whole topic to be more than a little childish.

Imagine if the Internet had been around in first half of the 1900's. People would have seen the advent of color and widescreen, and boohooed about how it ruined the whole "cinematic" experience. All those silly garish colors distracting from the film, and things happening clear over on the edge of that ridiculously wide screen! Unthinkable. Give me Academy Ratio Black and White!
Have you ever seen early color films? Hand tinting really was ugly and garish:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kplgIO9F7Pg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And two-strip Technicolor couldn't register a lot of colors correctly, particularly skin tones which showed up as either grey or pink:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wMRLM3-01us" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The fact that color film later improved doesn't excuse the technical shortcomings of the early versions.
Old 04-28-12, 12:09 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

That is irrelevant to the discussion. The fact that 48fps differs from 24 isn't a technical shortcoming. People are complaining because it doesn't look exactly like 24fps, which it can't and never will, just as color and/or widescreen can never look just like academy ratio black and white. They are different, and will always be different.
Old 04-28-12, 12:25 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

But technical shortcomings can indeed occur even in that situation. For example: HD and SD differ from one another. But if you film a set designed for SD in HD, then you can see a lot of the flaws on the set, things that weren't meant to be clearly visible. News sets, late night shows had to change their stuff because of this. It's not a flaw of the medium, that's for sure, but something wasn't taken into consideration. By viewing something like that, someone can end up thinking "HD makes flaws look worse!" instead of "Well, the camera can capture much more info, so maybe we have to change what we put in front of the camera."

So even though the filming technique is indeed different, changes have to be made on both sides of the equation to maximize the effect (or the illusion).

Now I'm not saying that's the case with the Hobbit, since I obviously haven't seen it, and am looking forward to seeing how 48 fps plays out for myself. I'm guessing they did a number of tests in pre-production and all that as well.

Last edited by bluetoast; 04-28-12 at 12:34 PM.
Old 04-28-12, 12:46 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

The only thing that makes me nervous about this is if they use it as an excuse to continue the 3D nonsense. I have naive hope we are on the backend of that ridiculous trend, but alas...
Old 04-28-12, 12:52 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara
The fact that color film later improved doesn't excuse the technical shortcomings of the early versions.
Excuse seems a bit harsh given that it was the advent of cinema.

 

The fact that art later improved perspective doesn't excuse the technical shortcomings of the early versions.

Old 04-28-12, 01:15 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

^Improved perspective is just a gimmick to get people to pay more for artwork. It doesn't add anything and it just gives me a headache. I have naive hope we are on the back end of that ridiculous trend, but alas...
Old 04-28-12, 05:02 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

Originally Posted by Cellar Door
^Improved perspective is just a gimmick to get people to pay more for artwork. It doesn't add anything and it just gives me a headache. I have naive hope we are on the back end of that ridiculous trend, but alas...
3D makes the image look worse, not better. But hey, it'll save me some bucks if I don't see anything in the theater because it's all been turned into a diorama that looks like a TV show.
Old 04-28-12, 07:36 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

Originally Posted by bluetoast
But technical shortcomings can indeed occur even in that situation. For example: HD and SD differ from one another. But if you film a set designed for SD in HD, then you can see a lot of the flaws on the set, things that weren't meant to be clearly visible. News sets, late night shows had to change their stuff because of this. It's not a flaw of the medium, that's for sure, but something wasn't taken into consideration. By viewing something like that, someone can end up thinking "HD makes flaws look worse!" instead of "Well, the camera can capture much more info, so maybe we have to change what we put in front of the camera."

So even though the filming technique is indeed different, changes have to be made on both sides of the equation to maximize the effect (or the illusion).

Now I'm not saying that's the case with the Hobbit, since I obviously haven't seen it, and am looking forward to seeing how 48 fps plays out for myself. I'm guessing they did a number of tests in pre-production and all that as well.
I still don't see that as a valid analogy. The complaints against the 48fps footage from The Hobbit (as well as the footage James Cameron showed) are nothing more than "it looks different and I don't like it". That, to me, is the epitome of a childish knee-jerk reaction. I have no doubt that there were people in the early days of color and widescreen who voiced similar whinings, but fortunately they didn't have the voice that the Internet provides today.

I was listening to some HT discussion on the radio today with Scott Wilkinson (Home Theater Magazine Editor) and Dick DeBartolo (TheGizWiz), and they were talking about this same topic, and they had similar opinions to mine. Wilkinson even went so far as to point out the irony of the complaints, considering all of the flaws inherent in 24fps filming, such as motion judder during pans.

There is just no logical reason for the complaints. It is all based in emotion.
Old 04-28-12, 07:42 PM
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Re: The Hobbit

I think it was summed up best when somebody said if you're focusing on how the footage looks and not the actual content, something is wrong. I think a lot of people are going to be taken out of the film when the footage seems distracting to them. It's going to have the opposite effect of immersion that Jackson was hoping for.


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