The Hobbit
#1426
Banned
Re: The Hobbit
It's all relative. I meant "minor" in the sense that it's not likely to make the evening news on the national networks, or probably even on "Extra". It's major news within the cinephile community maybe.
Note that I don't mean to belittle the issue: it's definitely of interest to me.
Note that I don't mean to belittle the issue: it's definitely of interest to me.
Yeah. The internet is a very vocal minority of people that overanalyze everything. Most "casual" people like myself won't notice a thing different about it at all. Its really only forums like this full of cinephiles that will notice it and complain.
#1427
DVD Talk Legend
Re: The Hobbit
You're right they didn't work on paper either. But I'm talking about the "feeling" of a film. I would propose the majority of original SW fans would've preferred to see the same scripts (flawed as they are) delivered as if they were made right after Jedi. And even then it's not a fair comparison because the majority of the "creative" decisions were based on what they could do visually. (just as the OT was made) Lucas shoud've forced himself to write the films as he would've two decades earlier. That's the problem. Sure, series like Bond and Star Trek evolve and become more modern as they go along, but in the case of a series that is intentionally meant to follow a specific timeline... it's a tragic irony that for these three films outside of studio intervention - there has never been a bigger failure.
#1429
Re: The Hobbit
Watch this and now picture Gandalf and Frodo in a scene like this. That's what it'll look like in 48fps.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gL5oX2Of9Ls" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Fortunately from what I've been reading most theaters will not have the equipment to show the film at 48fps.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gL5oX2Of9Ls" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Fortunately from what I've been reading most theaters will not have the equipment to show the film at 48fps.
#1430
DVD Talk Legend
Re: The Hobbit
Um, no. The scripts were awful. It's always hard to speak for anyone other than yourself, especially a "majority" in regards to a hypothetical. However, I do recall that what appeared to be a majority of SW fans were outright ecstatic about the trailers for The Phantom Menace, which were essentially nothing but visuals for the films. The best parts of the film are the parts with little to no dialogue. So I don't think it's the way that they were shot that has significantly impacted their reception.
#1431
DVD Talk Hero
Re: The Hobbit
Although the higher framerate wont bother me one bit, it can be jarring when you first see it.
Try watching any given episode of The Shield. In that show the framerate would flip-flop randomly from shot to shot in scenes shot on 24 frames and at 60 Hz. It's really jarring when it happens at first, and never stops being noticeable. However, watching a whole movie like that wouldn't be a big deal as long as it's consitant.
Try watching any given episode of The Shield. In that show the framerate would flip-flop randomly from shot to shot in scenes shot on 24 frames and at 60 Hz. It's really jarring when it happens at first, and never stops being noticeable. However, watching a whole movie like that wouldn't be a big deal as long as it's consitant.
#1432
Banned
Re: The Hobbit
Although the higher framerate wont bother me one bit, it can be jarring when you first see it.
Try watching any given episode of The Shield. In that show the framerate would flip-flop randomly from shot to shot in scenes shot on 24 frames and at 60 Hz. It's really jarring when it happens at first, and never stops being noticeable. However, watching a whole movie like that wouldn't be a big deal as long as it's consitant.
Try watching any given episode of The Shield. In that show the framerate would flip-flop randomly from shot to shot in scenes shot on 24 frames and at 60 Hz. It's really jarring when it happens at first, and never stops being noticeable. However, watching a whole movie like that wouldn't be a big deal as long as it's consitant.
#1435
DVD Talk Hero
Re: The Hobbit
Although the higher framerate wont bother me one bit, it can be jarring when you first see it.
Try watching any given episode of The Shield. In that show the framerate would flip-flop randomly from shot to shot in scenes shot on 24 frames and at 60 Hz. It's really jarring when it happens at first, and never stops being noticeable. However, watching a whole movie like that wouldn't be a big deal as long as it's consitant.
Try watching any given episode of The Shield. In that show the framerate would flip-flop randomly from shot to shot in scenes shot on 24 frames and at 60 Hz. It's really jarring when it happens at first, and never stops being noticeable. However, watching a whole movie like that wouldn't be a big deal as long as it's consitant.
#1436
DVD Talk Hero
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: In the straps of boots
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Re: The Hobbit
I just want to thank Jay G. for the lengthy explanation. He explains it well, I think. Over the years, I've come to understand and, for better or worse, am very sensitive to detecting different frame rates. The display TVs at Best Buy with their 120Hz or 240Hz refresh rates (and motion "fixing" turned on, of course) are jarring to me. Not because my mind doesn't like more frames (and less flicker!), but because the motion itself is unnatural. If those displays could play back footage that was filmed at 120fps or 240fps, they'd be beautiful, I'm sure. But TVs just aren't good at creating all of those extra frames from 24fps source material yet. Think about it... if every major motion picture is filmed at 24fps... and those TVs are set to create "smooth" motion at 240Hz... that means 1 out of every 10 frames displayed is actually from the source material. The other 9 are "estimated" by the TV. That's why it looks so unnatural.
Anyway, my thoughts on The Hobbit are mixed at this point. While I love the idea of toying with new possibilities like 48fps, I agree that it's very risky to do it with such a major project. If it can properly be displayed at 48fps (without any sort of weird post-processing), I'm pretty confident that I'll be impressed. But for the remaining 99.9% of theatres that can't properly project 48fps, then that means there's a version of the film that has 50% of the frames removed. I can't believe that that will look anything but horrible. If the source material is 48fps, and they cut out half of those frames to project it at 24fps... even with some heavy post-processing (ie: blurring) to improve the sense of motion, I personally don't think there's any way for it to be seamless. It'll be jarring but in a completely opposite fashion to 240Hz TVs with frame estimation.
I'm no expert by any means, but based on what we know so far, I'm worried that The Hobbit is going to look like crap in my local theatres.
Anyway, my thoughts on The Hobbit are mixed at this point. While I love the idea of toying with new possibilities like 48fps, I agree that it's very risky to do it with such a major project. If it can properly be displayed at 48fps (without any sort of weird post-processing), I'm pretty confident that I'll be impressed. But for the remaining 99.9% of theatres that can't properly project 48fps, then that means there's a version of the film that has 50% of the frames removed. I can't believe that that will look anything but horrible. If the source material is 48fps, and they cut out half of those frames to project it at 24fps... even with some heavy post-processing (ie: blurring) to improve the sense of motion, I personally don't think there's any way for it to be seamless. It'll be jarring but in a completely opposite fashion to 240Hz TVs with frame estimation.
I'm no expert by any means, but based on what we know so far, I'm worried that The Hobbit is going to look like crap in my local theatres.
#1437
Moderator
Re: The Hobbit
Good point. What we're seeing reviews for now is for a presentation that was done with the latest equipment and the utmost care. When it gets to your local joint, some slack-jawed minimum wage teenager will be in charge of the projection.
#1438
Moderator
Re: The Hobbit
Here's a generalization of what most people were saying as they were walking out of Warner's presentation:
"The Dark Knight Rises looks awesome, but what the fuck happened to The Hobbit?"
My brain is mush as I'm operating off four hours of sleep due to Paramount's late night screening of The Dictator last night, but yes, it looked like I was watching a BBC production in 3D.
They've been holding most of their presentations this year at The Colosseum and if anything like the past few years, 4K projectors are always the norm. The studios bring in their own equipment as the setup changes from presentation-to-presentation. For example, there will be a laser projection demonstration occurring tomorrow morning.
"The Dark Knight Rises looks awesome, but what the fuck happened to The Hobbit?"
My brain is mush as I'm operating off four hours of sleep due to Paramount's late night screening of The Dictator last night, but yes, it looked like I was watching a BBC production in 3D.
They've been holding most of their presentations this year at The Colosseum and if anything like the past few years, 4K projectors are always the norm. The studios bring in their own equipment as the setup changes from presentation-to-presentation. For example, there will be a laser projection demonstration occurring tomorrow morning.
even in IMAX-Digital I thought the trailers for 'The Hobbit' left much to be desired - all the long shots looked fuzzy and indistinct
#1439
DVD Talk Legend
Re: The Hobbit
#1440
DVD Talk Legend
Re: The Hobbit
I haven't seen it, but I still must admit to some uneasiness. I was expecting to just look "richer", certainly not like the 120Hz TV mode. I want to trust Jackson, but I hope we're not getting into a Lucas type situation where nobody is brave enough to tell him he's messing something up.
#1441
DVD Talk Legend
Re: The Hobbit
^ PJ seems more likely to listen than GL, but you never know. I will say that I didn't really find the 3D previews I've seen to be distracting or of poor quality, so maybe the moral is keep it from being shown in the format that makes it look like a soap opera.
#1442
DVD Talk Legend
Re: The Hobbit
I was wondering why my in-laws TV looked so goofy, but didn't know how to describe it to anyone. Thanks for the info. I hope the movie does not look like their TV, it's too distracting.
#1443
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: The Hobbit
But this is apparently something not everyone can see. Like the rainbow effects on DLP projectors.
That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with your eyes, but it also doesn't mean that those of us who do see it are being difficult.
Last edited by Gunde; 04-26-12 at 09:16 AM.
#1444
Re: The Hobbit
I've seen The Shield a lot....but I only recall a little bit of weirdness outside. The brightness of the outdoor scenes was jarring at times, all the interiors were pretty normal. I assume they used 16 mm (24 fps) outside, video inside?
#1445
DVD Talk Hero
Re: The Hobbit
Actually, they would swap between video and film even in the interior scenes. And it would happen for no rhyme or reason. Even while characters were having a conversation. It was odd to say the least.
#1446
Re: The Hobbit
Damn I'm surprised I didn't notice that, usually I catch stuff like that. What pissed me off is when they made the later releases 16:9 (and re-released the older ones in that format as well).
#1447
DVD Talk Legend
Re: The Hobbit
Everything looked great during the ten-minute reel, except the fact it felt like I was watching the BBC on a gigantic screen in 3D.
#1449
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Re: The Hobbit
Of all the press comments I've read, I found this one to be the most fair and even-handed review. I actually look forward to the 48 fps revolution!
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/55212
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/55212
The instant this morning's Warner Bros presentation ended, the audience erupted in chatter. Almost everyone had just seen something that had never hit their eyes before. Forget 2D versus 3D, this is going to be a hell of a conversation come December (earlier, if they demo it).
Filmmaking at 48 frames per second, whether 3D or not, is going to be massively divisive.
For 80 years, we've been living with the 24fps standard, and people are used to the strobing and motion blur associated with it. It's that hard-to-describe look that we associate with a movie feeling like a movie. It’s a certain resolution and a certain number of still images hitting our eyes each second.
Now that "Digital Cinema" is taking over, the next step beyond resolution (1080p, 2K, 4K, or 8K, or whatever else) is the frame rate frontier. It’s being breached as we speak. With such a focus on 3D, more frames in those films will mean less headaches and blur and so on.
When I saw the HOBBIT trailer at 24fps in December at BNAT, there was something somewhat off. I felt it most directly in the bits that involved fast cutting and motion. My eyes had to do a lot of work to soak in everything they were seeing. Even after seeing it three times, I felt I’d missed things.
48fps makes those moments more fluid and clear, but there's something that people will absolutely hate about this upfront.
It's different, first of all, but the big issue people walked out of the room this morning feeling is that the look of THE HOBBIT is not what they associate with filmic, or movie-like, or at all traditionally cinematic. The effect of watching 1970’s BBC television dramas as compared to US TV from the same era was mentioned by various people around me.
In the opening minutes, I thought to myself "this looks like the TV department when they turn on 120Hz or TruMotion or whatever they call it". At once, it really doesn’t look like that. The smooth motion clarity is similar, but the 120Hz TV setting is the TV inventing visual information to fill in loads of completely nonexistent frames, creating the bullshit garbage you see walking through most TV departments in stores. Again, there is an element that 48fps and TruMotion share (which is where the comparison comes from), but 48 fps does not simply “look like Korean soap operas” or TruMotion-enhanced TV images. That’s a reductive, sensationalist, utterly bullshit equivocation.
Despite that, loads of exhibitors and attendees echoed that exact thought all around me. The cinematic filter between the action and the audience is dissolved in favor of a more immediate lens on the world of the movie.
The High Frame Rate Effect is something that will take getting used to, and some will absolutely reject it outright. Many will do so pre-emptively. It’s already happening all over Twitter.
To be honest, it kind of terrified me at first. In his pre-recorded intro, Peter Jackson said that the reason we were seeing 10 minutes of content was that "it takes your eyes a little bit to adjust", and that is absolutely the case. The immersive experience was not immediate, but gradual. I felt much more comfortable toward the end of the presentation, but still disconcerted and outside a comfort zone.
The most upfront benefit I felt was in landscape and action sequences, where surprisingly intricate detail was easily absorbed, even in a very, very wide shot. I was drawing in more visual information than my brain was used to processing.
Motion blur was gone completely in fast-moving action scenes and dark environment. In general, 48fps has the ability to be at once crisp and smooth, subtle and bold. It is a maelstrom of contradictions when compared to the loads of filmed content I’ve seen in my life. Others started pronouncing it over immediately upon exiting, but I am not passing that judgment (or any for that matter) yet. I saw ten minutes of unfinished, un-graded, incomplete footage as a cross-section, not a full feature film.
I have major reservations, but at the same time am beyond awed at many elements of what hit my visual cortex. Recalling the sweeping landscape shots they opened with now, I almost feel tears welling, and I can’t explain why. It was overwhelming in the most literal sense. It directly assaults your synapses with twice as much information through your retinas as you have become conditioned to expect from traditional cinema. I did not see the digital seams around creatures like Gollum and the trolls, a major benefit over 24fps. The creatures had a sense of mass in the environment, which was disconcerting in a good way.
I started getting acclimated, and then it cut away again, and again, and again. The scene that really allowed me to relax and get used to it was the scene with Bilbo and Gollum in the cave, the longest segment they showed us. If there had been more contiguous sequences like that, cut together like a full scene (albeit with unfinished color grading and effects), I think the response might have been very different in that room today. The enemy of a radically new presentation like 48fps is the sizzle reel format of cutting. People needed to be given the benefit of their patience not being tried by rapid cutting back and forth from non-contiguous scenes.
My call is that it was a less than ideal way to introduce something that, despite it all, managed to actually show promise in places.
I just had three people in the press suite agree that they did in fact think the Bilbo/Gollum scene worked, no reservations. Those same people said that all the brief clips “felt” like the 1970 I, CLAUDIUS in HD. They agreed that if they’d seen two or three sequences of that length, they may have been less reflexively averse to it. The most bizarre thing is that I found Jeffrey Wells singing 48fps’ praises and guys like Alex Billington slamming it and setting it on fire.
I think anyone making a definitive pronouncement (positive or negative) based on that presentation does not have enough proper representative data. I’m a presentation obsessive when it comes to aspect ratio, resolution, contrast, color grading, and all the nitty gritty. For my part, I’m still holding out. I don’t think I (or anyone) got the right representative look at it. Keep that in mind as you read what I’m sure will be loads of articles calling for 48fps’ pre-emptive death.
At once, I am beset with wonder at what the Battle of Five Armies will look like in motion. I wonder at what Smaug will look like in motion. There is so much more to see before all of that, which I assume is going to be in the second movie anyway.
Jackson mentioned something in his intro that I don’t think he was hedging with, about the frame rate of silent pictures being 16-18fps, and how going to 24fps was a big leap in the day. Think of the relative jump: from silent to sound, a few decades pass and they increase the number of frames by 50%…in this case, 80 years pass and they increase the frame rate to 150% more. This is a massive shift in visual clarity, composition, and perception. Like I said, if you thought 2D versus 3D has been fun, this is a quantum jump into another realm of perception, and I expect the debate to be exponentially more heated.
There's so much more that's gone on too, but this is the biggest industry-wide thing that's gone down since I've been here.
Filmmaking at 48 frames per second, whether 3D or not, is going to be massively divisive.
For 80 years, we've been living with the 24fps standard, and people are used to the strobing and motion blur associated with it. It's that hard-to-describe look that we associate with a movie feeling like a movie. It’s a certain resolution and a certain number of still images hitting our eyes each second.
Now that "Digital Cinema" is taking over, the next step beyond resolution (1080p, 2K, 4K, or 8K, or whatever else) is the frame rate frontier. It’s being breached as we speak. With such a focus on 3D, more frames in those films will mean less headaches and blur and so on.
When I saw the HOBBIT trailer at 24fps in December at BNAT, there was something somewhat off. I felt it most directly in the bits that involved fast cutting and motion. My eyes had to do a lot of work to soak in everything they were seeing. Even after seeing it three times, I felt I’d missed things.
48fps makes those moments more fluid and clear, but there's something that people will absolutely hate about this upfront.
It's different, first of all, but the big issue people walked out of the room this morning feeling is that the look of THE HOBBIT is not what they associate with filmic, or movie-like, or at all traditionally cinematic. The effect of watching 1970’s BBC television dramas as compared to US TV from the same era was mentioned by various people around me.
In the opening minutes, I thought to myself "this looks like the TV department when they turn on 120Hz or TruMotion or whatever they call it". At once, it really doesn’t look like that. The smooth motion clarity is similar, but the 120Hz TV setting is the TV inventing visual information to fill in loads of completely nonexistent frames, creating the bullshit garbage you see walking through most TV departments in stores. Again, there is an element that 48fps and TruMotion share (which is where the comparison comes from), but 48 fps does not simply “look like Korean soap operas” or TruMotion-enhanced TV images. That’s a reductive, sensationalist, utterly bullshit equivocation.
Despite that, loads of exhibitors and attendees echoed that exact thought all around me. The cinematic filter between the action and the audience is dissolved in favor of a more immediate lens on the world of the movie.
The High Frame Rate Effect is something that will take getting used to, and some will absolutely reject it outright. Many will do so pre-emptively. It’s already happening all over Twitter.
To be honest, it kind of terrified me at first. In his pre-recorded intro, Peter Jackson said that the reason we were seeing 10 minutes of content was that "it takes your eyes a little bit to adjust", and that is absolutely the case. The immersive experience was not immediate, but gradual. I felt much more comfortable toward the end of the presentation, but still disconcerted and outside a comfort zone.
The most upfront benefit I felt was in landscape and action sequences, where surprisingly intricate detail was easily absorbed, even in a very, very wide shot. I was drawing in more visual information than my brain was used to processing.
Motion blur was gone completely in fast-moving action scenes and dark environment. In general, 48fps has the ability to be at once crisp and smooth, subtle and bold. It is a maelstrom of contradictions when compared to the loads of filmed content I’ve seen in my life. Others started pronouncing it over immediately upon exiting, but I am not passing that judgment (or any for that matter) yet. I saw ten minutes of unfinished, un-graded, incomplete footage as a cross-section, not a full feature film.
I have major reservations, but at the same time am beyond awed at many elements of what hit my visual cortex. Recalling the sweeping landscape shots they opened with now, I almost feel tears welling, and I can’t explain why. It was overwhelming in the most literal sense. It directly assaults your synapses with twice as much information through your retinas as you have become conditioned to expect from traditional cinema. I did not see the digital seams around creatures like Gollum and the trolls, a major benefit over 24fps. The creatures had a sense of mass in the environment, which was disconcerting in a good way.
I started getting acclimated, and then it cut away again, and again, and again. The scene that really allowed me to relax and get used to it was the scene with Bilbo and Gollum in the cave, the longest segment they showed us. If there had been more contiguous sequences like that, cut together like a full scene (albeit with unfinished color grading and effects), I think the response might have been very different in that room today. The enemy of a radically new presentation like 48fps is the sizzle reel format of cutting. People needed to be given the benefit of their patience not being tried by rapid cutting back and forth from non-contiguous scenes.
My call is that it was a less than ideal way to introduce something that, despite it all, managed to actually show promise in places.
I just had three people in the press suite agree that they did in fact think the Bilbo/Gollum scene worked, no reservations. Those same people said that all the brief clips “felt” like the 1970 I, CLAUDIUS in HD. They agreed that if they’d seen two or three sequences of that length, they may have been less reflexively averse to it. The most bizarre thing is that I found Jeffrey Wells singing 48fps’ praises and guys like Alex Billington slamming it and setting it on fire.
I think anyone making a definitive pronouncement (positive or negative) based on that presentation does not have enough proper representative data. I’m a presentation obsessive when it comes to aspect ratio, resolution, contrast, color grading, and all the nitty gritty. For my part, I’m still holding out. I don’t think I (or anyone) got the right representative look at it. Keep that in mind as you read what I’m sure will be loads of articles calling for 48fps’ pre-emptive death.
At once, I am beset with wonder at what the Battle of Five Armies will look like in motion. I wonder at what Smaug will look like in motion. There is so much more to see before all of that, which I assume is going to be in the second movie anyway.
Jackson mentioned something in his intro that I don’t think he was hedging with, about the frame rate of silent pictures being 16-18fps, and how going to 24fps was a big leap in the day. Think of the relative jump: from silent to sound, a few decades pass and they increase the number of frames by 50%…in this case, 80 years pass and they increase the frame rate to 150% more. This is a massive shift in visual clarity, composition, and perception. Like I said, if you thought 2D versus 3D has been fun, this is a quantum jump into another realm of perception, and I expect the debate to be exponentially more heated.
There's so much more that's gone on too, but this is the biggest industry-wide thing that's gone down since I've been here.
#1450
DVD Talk Legend
Re: The Hobbit
Good article. I think on point it makes that hasn't really been touched yet was this line:
The 48fps shooting should allow for a better 3D presentation, with less eye strain for everyone. It could actually allow a few people who normally can't or don't like to watch 3D to see it in 3D.
With such a focus on 3D, more frames in those films will mean less headaches and blur and so on.