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Pardon my ignorance, but I know nothing about "Batman" and all his of villians/enemies. But no one seems to be bitching about the Joker back in another "Batman" film. Myself included. I'll be there opening night for "The Dark Knight". But I thought Spacey put a new spin on Lex Luther and he was quite good. I don't want to see him or the character in every film, but it was o.k. for the first film to re-introduce us to Superman. Is Spacey and the Lex Luther character even being considered for the next installment?
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Originally Posted by Daytripper
Pardon my ignorance, but I know nothing about "Batman" and all his of villians/enemies. But no one seems to be bitching about the Joker back in another "Batman" film. Myself included. I'll be there opening night for "The Dark Knight". But I thought Spacey put a new spin on Lex Luther and he was quite good. I don't want to see him or the character in every film, but it was o.k. for the first film to re-introduce us to Superman. Is Spacey and the Lex Luther character even being considered for the next installment?
2) People want to see Superman "fight" someone. Supes can't fight Lex, he can only foil his evil plans. |
Originally Posted by DeputyDave
I think the problem is two fold. 1) Superman has faced Lex in 4 out of 5 movies, not 2 out of 6.
2) People want to see Superman "fight" someone. Supes can't fight Lex, he can only foil his evil plans. |
No one is bitching about Joker being back because Batman has a sucky rogue's gallery. I'm sick of Joker as I am with Lex Luthor. But at least Heath Ledger seems to make the most of the character unlike unlike Spacey.
Batman has the lamest villains: Joker · Penguin · Poison Ivy · Ra's al Ghul · Riddler · Scarecrow · Two-Face . Bane. Clayface. Harlequin. Nolan did a great job with Ra's al Ghul and Scarecrow, but they are just no where as interesting as villains from other superhero comics. I don't think Ra's al Ghul and Scarecrow could be done any better on film, but they are in no comparison to a Green Goblin, Abomination, Doctor Octopus, etc.... |
Originally Posted by toddly6666
No one is bitching about Joker being back because Batman has a sucky rogue's gallery. I'm sick of Joker as I am with Lex Luthor. But at least Heath Ledger seems to make the most of the character unlike unlike Spacey.
Batman has the lamest villains: Joker · Penguin · Poison Ivy · Ra's al Ghul · Riddler · Scarecrow · Two-Face . Bane. Clayface. Harlequin. Nolan did a great job with Ra's al Ghul and Scarecrow, but they are just no where as interesting as villains from other superhero comics. I don't think Ra's al Ghul and Scarecrow could be done any better on film, but they are in no comparison to a Green Goblin, Abomination, Doctor Octopus, etc.... And I thought Abomination was a pretty crappy villain, as must of Hulk's nemesis are other then him versus other heroes. |
Batman has the single best villains, I would say.
All the villains you named are A-LIST villains. |
I think Batman's got the best villains of them all. Spidey's got the Green Goblin and Doc Ock. After that, they get pretty bland.
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Originally Posted by lawyer goodwill
My biggest problem with Superman II, especially with the street brawl, is that it seems that the four of them could have fought all day without putting a dent into each other. I guess someone could have been strangled, but it just looked like a good excuse to throw each other around before someone ran for the hills.
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Originally Posted by Paul_SD
If you couldn't tell, I think Singer has been vastly overrated starting with the second X-men film and I'm in the minority that thinks he never did lay a substantial enough foundation for a Dark Phoenix storyline to begin with. The Liberty Island reference early in the film is a good start, but it never escalates meaningfully beyond that. The whole premise with DP is that she undergoes a HUGE personality shift. If that's the case, wouldn't it have made more internal sense to have HER under Jasons mind control than Scott? The way Singer uses these characters in the second film, they are more or less interchangeable. The story functions that Scott and Jean perform are more or less arbitrary and the only reason Jean is really needed to be along with the incursion group (Woverine, Magneto, Storm, etc) is so Singer can almost hook her up with the titular main character of these films (Wolverine). Her 'death' is also seemingly arbitrary and meaningless. These characters are used to seeing the most outlandish extraordinary things, yet they break down and weep in grief the second Jean appears to disincorporate herself. This attitude is forced on these characters and isn't organic or natural to who they are at all (especially Wolverine).
It would have been better to address the whole 'you haven't been the same since Liberty Island' thing rather than retcon the movie history by claiming Jean has been disturbed since before she even came to Xavier's school. Ugh. That whole part was stupid. Use of Leech, stupid. Killing Cyclops, while I hate his ass, equally stupid. Ah, hell, it was all pretty stupid. While you bring up the point that Singer may not have done better, he would have had to really try to do worse, and I think the first two movies were pretty damn good...better than expected. The ONLY thing the 3rd movie got right is that they stopped having Wolverine be a total pussy. Knocked out by a tree? Idiotic. KO'd by a bullet? Retarded. Having massive layers of flesh pulled off by the Dark Phoenix and heal almost immediately? More accurate. My Logan is the one that can take 30 bullets to the gut and sit down for a few minutes while the ol' healing factor knits him back together or the one that gets run over by a semi, has half his face ripped off and then sits up and starts talking. |
Originally Posted by Doc MacGyver
1 - Lex Luthor. It's not entirely Kevin Spacey's fault. That "Lex" hasn't been cannon since the seventies. And can we all please sign a declaration to stop acting as if Hackman was brilliant in the role? He was as good as the script merited, but he was no Lex. It's as aggrivating as when people used to say that Jack was the DEFINITIVE Joker. It wasn't true twenty years ago and it's (obviously) not true now. You want to see how Lex should be done? I'll refer you to Superman: The Animated Series by Messuiers Timm, Dini, et all. Spice it up to a PG-13 rating, throw in a little Gordon Gekko, a little Col. Kurtz and BOOM - Lex Luthor. 2 - The kid. It's a problem. It was a stupid idea and it shouldn't have been done.... UNLESS.... The next movie introduces Braniac (or Darkseid, although I'd love for him to be a Justice League villain) who KILLS the kid. Fuck the whole, "You can't kill a kid in a SUPERMAN movie!!!!!" argument. Bollocks. Give the big blue boyscout some emotional depth that goes beyond, "I'm not human and Lois doesn't know how much I love her!" Puts you right back into cannon (read: no retarded, out-of-place, franchise-ending plot threads hanging out there like a penis on Kate Moss) and even moves the main character forward. Kid gone, Lois and Cyclops break up, Lois discovers Clark's identity. Boom - already we are in unexplored territory (discovers and isn't mindwiped by a kiss, I mean). 3 - As many have said before, give him a villain he can FIGHT. We need to see Supes kick ass (and get his ass kicked). Most definitely. and finally, 4 - Give the poor bastard some lines. "I'm sorry, Mr. Singer... I just thought there was going to be some Superman in my Superman movie." I'm giving the impression that I disliked the film. I didn't. It's just that there was as much to dislike as to like. Fortunately, as I said, all rectifiable. Keep the tone, the music, even the same actor if you want. Just bump it up a notch, bench Lex until you get him right, have Supes do some Super stuff that involves fighting instead of catching things. ...and oh yeah - kill the kid. -Doc Anyway, back to the kid. I can't agree more how important it is to kill the kid. In fact, I think I'll one-up you. It needs to be a joint venture between somebody (Darkseid?) and Luthor. Superman can think it's Darkseid and go to town on his ass, without killing him (cause he's God like that ;) ), and then still have to face him another day. The better parts come when a) Lois finds out (per above) and, b) he finds out Lex had a hand in it. Now talk about emotional struggle while trying to refrain from killing him and keeping your morals intact. I could use a quip and smirk from Clancy Bro...I mean Lex right now. Man, how awsome could the next film be?! Of course since we both think this you do realize it won't happen, right? Now if only those Smallville writers would listen to me... |
Not to derail this thread but its been kind of jumping artound, wasn't X3 written by the same guys who wrote parts 1 and 2? Wouldn't the movie have essentially turned out the same?
I certainly agree though that Superman needs to be hitting and smashing things in the next movie. I'd love to see Supes battle some giant robots or a Brainiac or Metallo, or Bizzaro. I forgot my other points. Maybe I'll remember them later, heh. |
Batman's villains are famously cheesy though. When you think of Batman villains, the typical villain that people look up to is The Joker. I have never heard of people saying "oh, that Riddler, Penguin, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, Clayface" are such bad-asses.
I forgot to include the villains from FF4 and X-Men comics... There is no comparison to Batman's villains when comparing them to Spiderman's villains - Spiderman has tons of bad-asses that haven't been used yet: Kraven, Hobgoblin, Lizard, Kingpin, Chameleon, Vulture, The Rhino, Electro, Mysterio, Carnage, Scorpion, Shocker, Hammerhead, Silvermane, Tarantula, Tombstone....there's a great story behind every Spiderman villain. I don't know the same could be same for Batman's villains. |
Originally Posted by toddly6666
No one is bitching about Joker being back because Batman has a sucky rogue's gallery. I'm sick of Joker as I am with Lex Luthor. But at least Heath Ledger seems to make the most of the character unlike unlike Spacey.
Batman has the lamest villains: Joker · Penguin · Poison Ivy · Ra's al Ghul · Riddler · Scarecrow · Two-Face . Bane. Clayface. Harlequin. Nolan did a great job with Ra's al Ghul and Scarecrow, but they are just no where as interesting as villains from other superhero comics. I don't think Ra's al Ghul and Scarecrow could be done any better on film, but they are in no comparison to a Green Goblin, Abomination, Doctor Octopus, etc.... Joker Penguin Poison Ivy Ra's al Ghul/Talia Riddler Scarecrow Two-Face Bane Clayface Harlequin Mr. Zsasz Mr. Freeze Ventriloquist Mad Hatter KGBeast (Oh, I liked that story) Man-Bat Catwoman Killer Croc I wish the Clock King was in the comics. :(
Originally Posted by Rizor
I think Batman's got the best villains of them all. Spidey's got the Green Goblin and Doc Ock. After that, they get pretty bland.
Chameleon Vulture Doctor Octopus Morbius Jack O'Lantern Green Goblin Grey Goblin Hobgoblin Demogoblin Doppleganger Jackal Electro Sandman The Lizard Rhino Mysterio Kraven the Hunter Shocker Kingpin Venom Carnage Anti-Venom Hydro-Man Silvermane Smythe/Spider-Slayers Tombstone Hammerhead Tarantula Black Tarantula Spot Kaine |
Eh?
Scarecrow Poision Ivy ClayFace Deadshot The Riddler The Joker Raz Ah Ghul Talia Catwoman Bane Mr. Freeze Penguin Two Face Hush Lex Luthor (he shares time as a Bat - villain. In fact, he works best as one) Any of the above could be great villains if we just had a decent writer. I mean are you honestly telling me that The Rhino has a great story behind him? Quantity of villains does not equal quality. Also - I'm a firm believer that there is no crappy character. It all comes down to the writer. Getting back on subject tho'. Superman is a character where it is almost impossible to really make a villain a threat for him, unless it is some kind of intergalactic God. |
Originally Posted by DarkestPhoenix
I wish the Clock King was in the comics. :( |
Originally Posted by toddly6666
No one is bitching about Joker being back because Batman has a sucky rogue's gallery. I'm sick of Joker as I am with Lex Luthor. But at least Heath Ledger seems to make the most of the character unlike unlike Spacey.
Batman has the lamest villains: Joker · Penguin · Poison Ivy · Ra's al Ghul · Riddler · Scarecrow · Two-Face . Bane. Clayface. Harlequin. Nolan did a great job with Ra's al Ghul and Scarecrow, but they are just no where as interesting as villains from other superhero comics. I don't think Ra's al Ghul and Scarecrow could be done any better on film, but they are in no comparison to a Green Goblin, Abomination, Doctor Octopus, etc.... Most Bat-Villians have a huge Psychological angle to them and so I can see where Marvel fans, with their child like views of comics :p, would only want to see the CGi'd monsters and that sort of thing. :lol: |
Originally Posted by Geddlo
Not to derail this thread but its been kind of jumping artound, wasn't X3 written by the same guys who wrote parts 1 and 2? Wouldn't the movie have essentially turned out the same?
Tom DeSanto (story) & Bryan Singer (story) David Hayter (screenplay) X2 Zak Penn (story) and David Hayter (story) & Bryan Singer (story) Michael Dougherty (screenplay) & Dan Harris (screenplay) and David Hayter (screenplay) X-MEN: THE LAST STAND Simon Kinberg (written by) & Zak Penn (written by) |
Originally Posted by Giantrobo
I think your problem with Bat-villians is that they're not over the top monsters requiring some degree of CGi and Wire -Fu to pull them off in films. I mean you have to do this with Spider-man since he's got powers and his rogues need to match. Batman isn't a fuckin' mutant and spider bitten freak show.
Most Bat-Villians have a huge Psychological angle to them and so I can see where Marvel fans, with their child like views of comics :p, would only want to see the CGi'd monsters and that sort of thing. :lol: Batman's my favorite comic book character, but I think the problem with Batman's villains is that because Batman is just a regular dude, his villains have to play down to the hero to give him a formidable opponent. And because of that, when there's any crossover with other hero's they need to come up with silly reasons on how they can match up. I can't imagine someone like Penguin being a threat to Superman, or even Bane. Not that it's a bad thing, as some really creative characters have come up, but I think Spidey's villains are a little more even and less gimmicky. |
Back on track with that Superman guy....
Watching Superman III right now on HD net, the best part is how much of an asshole Supes is. Before he even gets hit with Red K. Ignoring Jimmy as he talks about his family, yelling at the fire fighters, giving the tractor driver a big FU look, and: Ricky: "Can you get me Superman's autograph?" Clark: "Gee, I don't know, If I had a nickle for every time some little kid...." LOL good stuff. Supes is always good when hes portrayed as a little arrogant like in JLU. The sequel could use that, rather than gloomy Supes. |
Originally Posted by fumanstan
DC fanboy -ohbfrank- :p
Batman's my favorite comic book character, but I think the problem with Batman's villains is that because Batman is just a regular dude, his villains have to play down to the hero to give him a formidable opponent. And because of that, when there's any crossover with other hero's they need to come up with silly reasons on how they can match up. I can't imagine someone like Penguin being a threat to Superman, or even Bane. Not that it's a bad thing, as some really creative characters have come up, but I think Spidey's villains are a little more even and less gimmicky. |
Originally Posted by stingermck
Watching Superman III right now on HD net, the best part is how much of an asshole Supes is. Before he even gets hit with Red K.
http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/2271/10274030gs8.jpg Courtesy of superdickery.com :) |
Originally Posted by bee_01
That's because Superman is a dick...
Courtesy of superdickery.com :) |
Batman's most famous villains just seem to cheesy villainish sort of like Dick Tracy villains. I'm all for the not-so-famous villains getting screentime, such as Deadshot and Man-Bat, whom could have good storylines. No matter how good writers you get, I don't know how much you can do with Riddler, Penguin, Bane, Clayface, Harlaquin, Mr. Freeze, Ventriloquist, Mad Hatter.
I will admit that I may be too influenced from the 1960s show, the 80s/90s Batmans, the Batman cartoons, and most of the Batman comics. The only good Batman storlyines that I have read have revolved around Joker, Two-Face, Ra's Ah Ghul, and Scarecrow... |
Good call on Hush. That was a great storyline.
Marvel's not childish, just focused on the physical as opposed to the psychological. It's like a Doctor vs Psychiatrist debate. I think we all know who does the REAL work... ;) I don't mind DC, but sometimes all the bullshit bores me. Superman in the comics has the same problem as he does in the movies: Not enough action, and even when there is, there's no sense of real danger to him. |
That's it Gawd Dammit! Marvel Fanboyz PUH-LEEZ exit the SUPERMAN thread IMMEDIATELY!!! Don't lift your legs to spray your Marvel Stink on this DC thread!!!! :grunt:
You don't like Superman? You can't think of the right villains? You don't like DC heroes because they're not Mutant freakshows? Then go back to the Spider-man 3 thread and debate Peter's Fancy Dance moves!!! :lol: |
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