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"Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

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Old 07-13-15 | 08:47 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Originally Posted by Spiderbite
Why? The music is iconic. It IS Superman.

They haven't let go of the James Bond theme. It's been updated, changed, manipulated, etc. but it still is around and is important to the character. It IS James Bond. They even included a few seconds of it in the newest trailer and it makes you want to cheer when you hear it.

Remember when they did Rocky IV without the Rocky theme? It just sucked. Wasn't Rocky.

The Superman theme is the most heroic music created. I can't think of any theme that still gives me goosebumps or brings a tear to my eye every time I hear it (well, maybe Somewhere In Time).
that's the problem right there. This isn't being developed like Bond was. Essentially a working horse product to keep running for them. The comparisons don't fit very well.

Superman, unlike who Bond has been, is not controlled by his film nature. He's a lot bigger than that. Especially given where they want the character world to go and where we, as a culture, are in the medium... it just doesn't fit.
Old 07-13-15 | 08:48 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Many things can age poorly and still be a classic. Adam West's Batman is similarly a classic, but it hasn't aged well at all.
Old 07-13-15 | 09:00 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Exactly.

Superman is a great fucking movie, aged or not. Great filmmaking always stands, cultural/societal views and values change all the fucking time.
Old 07-13-15 | 09:00 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Originally Posted by trespoochies
I always find it funny that so many people say it hasn't aged well, yet acknowledge it is a classic. One way or another, I think it's clear that aged or not, Donner's Supeman will always be viewed as a classic. Snyder's version? Anything but.
With the Reeve films as much as I like them you can definitely tell that they're products of the late seventies and eighties. Compared to other films from around the same time they stick out more as products of the era.
Old 07-13-15 | 09:14 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

The clothing and hair style on the citizens of Metropolis is pretty much a good way to date the movie.
Old 07-13-15 | 09:18 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Superman: The Movie may not be perfect, but I think it holds up pretty well. To me, all of the elements that people find ridiculous/annoying/cheesy are what make it such a wonderful breath of fresh air compared to today's comic book movies. And I say that as someone with no real nostalgic attachment to the film. Despite growing up in the 80's, I never saw the Reeve series until much later in life. Even then, 9 times out of 10 I would choose to watch the original film over MoS. MoS may objectively be an ok film, but it's appeal for me is almost negligible. The only reason I'd ever revisit it would be if DC's new film universe ends up being great and I felt the need to rewatch things from the beginning.
Old 07-13-15 | 09:29 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Originally Posted by rocket1312
Superman: The Movie may not be perfect, but I think it holds up pretty well. To me, all of the elements that people find ridiculous/annoying/cheesy are what make it such a wonderful breath of fresh air compared to today's comic book movies. And I say that as someone with no real nostalgic attachment to the film. Despite growing up in the 80's, I never saw the Reeve series until much later in life. Even then, 9 times out of 10 I would choose to watch the original film over MoS. MoS may objectively be an ok film, but it's appeal for me is almost negligible. The only reason I'd ever revisit it would be if DC's new film universe ends up being great and I felt the need to rewatch things from the beginning.
For me personally, I think the Reeve Superman movies are just too campy. They are basically identical to the Adam West Batman TV series in terms of campiness. I like some camp, but I don't like too much.

Conversely, the modern DC movies are too serious.

I think that is why I like the Marvel movies more is because they are the perfect blend of campiness and seriousness without going too far in either direction.
Old 07-13-15 | 09:32 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Originally Posted by Mike86
With the Reeve films as much as I like them you can definitely tell that they're products of the late seventies and eighties. Compared to other films from around the same time they stick out more as products of the era.
Aside from Star Wars or period pieces, every movie made in the 70s and 80s looks dated by clothing, hairstyles, etc. I think things like topical jokes or homophobic jokes, stuff like that, date a movie more. The first Ted movie will feel dated in a few years if it hasn't already. Watching Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey, they use the word f *g a few times in a homophobic joke. You wouldn't see that now in a movie except in a different tone by characters that come off as douches (though funny douches) like Danny McBride characters.
Old 07-13-15 | 09:34 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

I think Superman: The Movie has not only aged well (albeit with a VERY 70s vibe), it's a prime example of Donner's commitment to verisimilitude. Other than a few obvious moments (sets and blue-screen moments), it feels very real, very tangible, very much in the world we live in -- although one made larger than life to provide the sort of bigscreen thrills we expect from a Superman movie.

It's still, in my mind, the best superhero movie, and I freely admit that's clouded by nostalgia. I was 7 when the first Reeve movie came out, already a big Superman fan, and I sat in that darkened theater with a tub of popcorn as big as I was, eyes huge and glued to the screen. I don't think I blinked throughout that entire flick. The Krypton moments were fantastical, alien, odd, and beautiful. Smallville felt homey and recognizable in a idealized Norman Rockwell sort of way. And everything with Metropolis/Superman evoked my memories of visiting New York City with my parents (we visited almost every year), being small and looking up at these huge buildings and bustling traffic and hurried people, really starting to get a sense of the largeness of the world. Having a protector swoop in from the skies made perfect sense to me, as if the world needed one.

I'm ranting. I love that flick. Superman did the impossible and made me forget all about Star Wars. I'll never that December 1978 afternoon when Superman saved Lois from the helicopter crash, the fanfare kicking in, and the theater erupting with cheers and applause. Cheesy? Maybe. But dammit it worked.
Old 07-13-15 | 09:37 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Originally Posted by kgrogers1979
For me personally, I think the Reeve Superman movies are just too campy. They are basically identical to the Adam West Batman TV series in terms of campiness. I like some camp, but I don't like too much.

Conversely, the modern DC movies are too serious.

I think that is why I like the Marvel movies more is because they are the perfect blend of campiness and seriousness without going too far in either direction.
No way are the Reeve Superman movies, especially the first two, as campy as the Adam West Batman show. You're reaching there.
Old 07-13-15 | 09:38 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Yeah. Reeve Supes is nowhere near as camp as what West Bats is now. That's stretching it.

Also the film sets you up in a comic book world. It doesn't hide it. It LITERALLY opens up that this isn't the real world we now.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Rk1aQx9hTaE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Aged elements or not, the film as a film sets itself up very well with a tone that works it very honestly and without shame. It's hokey (now)... but it works it to such a grand degree. It doesn't hide what it is. It just it. And Donner made an epic of a film. That's insanely hard to do. It works though.

Again... it's not what we exactly need today but it is a great and classic film that will stay in film history. MoS will not. But we don't need the Reeve Supes either. That's why I prefer a MoS than a SR. SR tried to establish itself w/ modernity but couldn't do it w/ juggling Reeve tone and the hope to stamp that Supes for the modern.

I'd rather a film do something different and fail to some degree than to ape a previous preferred form and fail at it as well.

Last edited by Solid Snake; 07-13-15 at 09:50 AM.
Old 07-13-15 | 09:43 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

60s Batman was almost farcical. 70s/80s Superman was way above that (at least the first movie and most of Superman II).

I have no defense for III and IV, but they still weren't high camp.
Old 07-13-15 | 10:08 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Originally Posted by kgrogers1979
For me personally, I think the Reeve Superman movies are just too campy. They are basically identical to the Adam West Batman TV series in terms of campiness. I like some camp, but I don't like too much.

Conversely, the modern DC movies are too serious.

I think that is why I like the Marvel movies more is because they are the perfect blend of campiness and seriousness without going too far in either direction.
For something to be camp, there has to be a certain amount of self-awareness to its exaggerated nature/tone. That's what makes the 60's Batman so great. The people making that show knew exactly what they were doing and to me it holds up brilliantly. At least the movie does. It's been years since I've seen an episode of the show.

I don't think I would label the original Donner Superman film as camp. It's been awhile since I've seen it, but my recollection is that it's pretty earnest. Is it sillier in nature than today's comic book films? Sure it is, but that doesn't make it camp. In fact I think it pretty well embodies comic books pre-80's revisionism.
Old 07-13-15 | 11:26 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Yeah Batman is camp and it knows it. That's why in my opinion it holds up well. You don't take it seriously but for what it is it's a fun series. I think a lot of people who criticize it don't get that.
Old 07-13-15 | 11:34 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Originally Posted by Mike86
Yeah Batman is camp and it knows it. That's why in my opinion it holds up well. You don't take it seriously but for what it is it's a fun series. I think a lot of people who criticize it don't get that.
It was actually really faithful to the comics of the time. The comics were goofy as shit back then with wacky characters like Batmite and Ace the Bathound.

Personally, I don't think camp holds up well. I don't criticize it, because I did love the series when I was a kid. I just don't like it much anymore. I find that happens with a lot of campy movies and TV shows. I used to like them when I was younger, but I don't like them so much when I got older. Star Trek: The Original Series is another one that is just unbearable to watch now. Also, The A-Team... Mr. T was so badass when I was a kid... now that show comes off as so incredibly lame.
Old 07-13-15 | 11:47 AM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Originally Posted by kgrogers1979
It was actually really faithful to the comics of the time. The comics were goofy as shit back then with wacky characters like Batmite and Ace the Bathound.

Personally, I don't think camp holds up well. I don't criticize it, because I did love the series when I was a kid. I just don't like it much anymore. I find that happens with a lot of campy movies and TV shows. I used to like them when I was younger, but I don't like them so much when I got older. Star Trek: The Original Series is another one that is just unbearable to watch now. Also, The A-Team... Mr. T was so badass when I was a kid... now that show comes off as so incredibly lame.
I think you're using the term campy a little too liberally here. The definition of camp or campy is much more specific. Star Trek was not camp. The A-Team was not camp. There may be elements of both that seem campy in retrospect, but more likely than not that perception was unintended.
Old 07-13-15 | 12:02 PM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Undoubtedly... it doesn't stop them from possibly being campy either. West Bats was intentional and stays as such. Shit that veers too away from tastes of modernity can be camp but it's recognizing what was made w/ what intention and not that defines where it actually falls into.

ST comes off campy today but it wasn't made like that. Same w/ Superman. Though Superman intentionally had a tone that keeps it from falling into camp cuz that's where it went w/ it. It only can be "camp" cuz people fail to recognize its intentions. Again... people don't really recognize how much work went into it.
Old 07-13-15 | 12:07 PM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake
Undoubtedly... it doesn't stop them from possibly being campy either. West Bats was intentional and stays as such. Shit that veers too away from tastes of modernity can be camp but it's recognizing what was made w/ what intention and not that defines where it actually falls into.

ST comes off campy today but it wasn't made like that. Same w/ Superman. Though Superman intentionally had a tone that keeps it from falling into camp cuz that's where it went w/ it. It only can be "camp" cuz people fail to recognize its intentions. Again... people don't really recognize how much work went into it.
Superman definitely had intentional camp. Otis was definitely intentionally campy. Other scenes like the guy climbing the outside of a building and Superman asking him if the elevator is broken or the guy hitting Superman with a crowbar and Superman saying "bad vibrations?" seem intentionally campy as well.
Old 07-13-15 | 12:13 PM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

I'm midway through the second season of Batman. I had to slow down my consumption of the show to about 30 minutes a week because material like this works best in small doses.

But, I have to say, though they are all done with a camp attitude, not all of this camp is created equal. I have seen a wide disparity is the quality of that element. Bad, low brow, witless camp is excruciating to sit through.
Towards the end of the first season and opening the second season there were more than enough eps that made me regret spending the time it took to watch them. But then something turned around and I hit a spate of well written ones that are inventive, witty, and executed at high degree all around that the show is back to being an exuberant joy to watch. It's charms are especially appreciated after some heavy content where it works as a perfect palate cleanser.
On the surface all these episodes may look alike, but they most definitely are not all the same caliber. And when everything is firing on all cylinders- the writing, the performances, the direction- it's easy to see why it precipitated such a phenomenon.

Just wanted to throw that out there.
Old 07-13-15 | 12:27 PM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Originally Posted by Paul_SD
I'm midway through the second season of Batman. I had to slow down my consumption of the show to about 30 minutes a week because material like this works best in small doses.

But, I have to say, though they are all done with a camp attitude, not all of this camp is created equal. I have seen a wide disparity is the quality of that element. Bad, low brow, witless camp is excruciating to sit through.
Towards the end of the first season and opening the second season there were more than enough eps that made me regret spending the time it took to watch them. But then something turned around and I hit a spate of well written ones that are inventive, witty, and executed at high degree all around that the show is back to being an exuberant joy to watch. It's charms are especially appreciated after some heavy content where it works as a perfect palate cleanser.
On the surface all these episodes may look alike, but they most definitely are not all the same caliber. And when everything is firing on all cylinders- the writing, the performances, the direction- it's easy to see why it precipitated such a phenomenon.

Just wanted to throw that out there.
That's interesting. As I mentioned above, I haven't seen an episode of the show in years. I do give the movie a spin every couple of years though and I never get tired of it. It's not my favorite Batman movie, but it's probably the one that has brought me the most pure joy over the years. I guess I just assumed that the tv show was of a consistent similar quality.
Old 07-13-15 | 12:57 PM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Originally Posted by kgrogers1979
It was actually really faithful to the comics of the time. The comics were goofy as shit back then with wacky characters like Batmite and Ace the Bathound.
The goofy sci fi stuff happened after the CCA was founded, and DC went to more sci fi than detective stuff. But I always thought they were on the verge of getting rid of all that stuff when the show became a hit, which in turn influenced the comic to become even more campy.
Old 07-13-15 | 01:15 PM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Originally Posted by fujishig
The goofy sci fi stuff happened after the CCA was founded, and DC went to more sci fi than detective stuff. But I always thought they were on the verge of getting rid of all that stuff when the show became a hit, which in turn influenced the comic to become even more campy.
Wikipedia article on Batman

By 1964, sales on Batman titles had fallen drastically. Bob Kane noted that, as a result, DC was "planning to kill Batman off altogether".[43] In response to this, editor Julius Schwartz was assigned to the Batman titles. He presided over drastic changes, beginning with 1964's Detective Comics #327 (May 1964), which was cover-billed as the "New Look". Schwartz introduced changes designed to make Batman more contemporary, and to return him to more detective-oriented stories. He brought in artist Carmine Infantino to help overhaul the character. The Batmobile was redesigned, and Batman's costume was modified to incorporate a yellow ellipse behind the bat-insignia. The space aliens, time travel, and characters of the 1950s such as Batwoman, Ace, and Bat-Mite were retired. Batman's butler Alfred was killed off (though his death was quickly reversed) while a new female relative for the Wayne family, Aunt Harriet, came to live with Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson.[44]

The debut of the Batman television series in 1966 had a profound influence on the character. The success of the series increased sales throughout the comic book industry, and Batman reached a circulation of close to 900,000 copies.[45] Elements such as the character of Batgirl and the show's campy nature were introduced into the comics; the series also initiated the return of Alfred. Although both the comics and TV show were successful for a time, the camp approach eventually wore thin and the show was canceled in 1968. In the aftermath, the Batman comics themselves lost popularity once again. As Julius Schwartz noted, "When the television show was a success, I was asked to be campy, and of course when the show faded, so did the comic books."[46]
Yeah, the sci-fi stuff pretty much ended in 1964, but the comics stayed campy in tone with the TV show.

It's kind of weird that Batman was so unpopular in 1964 that they almost decided to end the character right then and there. It's weird to think how different things would be today without Batman considering he has been consistently the most popular superhero by far ever since Burton's movie.

I know X-Men were initially very unpopular as well, and the X-Men comic actually was canceled at one point time in the late 1960s.
Old 07-13-15 | 02:04 PM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

I've seen Superman Returns a couple dozen times now, and it still gives me goosebumps when it's supposed to and I'm still thrilled with it. I've seen MoS five or six times and have yet to encounter a single goosebump. I'd pay real money to visit an alternate universe where Singer got to make another Routh Superman movie.
Old 07-13-15 | 02:09 PM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

You've seen this more than 24 times?
Old 07-13-15 | 02:11 PM
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Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.

Originally Posted by Numanoid
I've seen Superman Returns a couple dozen times now, and it still gives me goosebumps when it's supposed to and I'm still thrilled with it. I've seen MoS five or six times and have yet to encounter a single goosebump. I'd pay real money to visit an alternate universe where Singer got to make another Routh Superman movie.
A couple of dozen times? Really? And 5 or 6 times for MoS? Are you a huge Superman fan? I wish I could find the time to watch movies I like 5 or 6 times. I've seen each once. I'd like to check out Returns again someday. Can't say I feel the same about MoS.

And if we're talking alternate worlds, I want to go to the one where Singer stays with Fox and makes X-Men 3 instead of Superman Returns.


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