"Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
#1026
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From: Formerly known as "Solid Snake PAC"/Denton, Tx
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
Why? The music is iconic. It IS Superman.
They haven't let go of the James Bond theme. It's been updated, changed, manipulated, etc. but it still is around and is important to the character. It IS James Bond. They even included a few seconds of it in the newest trailer and it makes you want to cheer when you hear it.
Remember when they did Rocky IV without the Rocky theme? It just sucked. Wasn't Rocky.
The Superman theme is the most heroic music created. I can't think of any theme that still gives me goosebumps or brings a tear to my eye every time I hear it (well, maybe Somewhere In Time).
They haven't let go of the James Bond theme. It's been updated, changed, manipulated, etc. but it still is around and is important to the character. It IS James Bond. They even included a few seconds of it in the newest trailer and it makes you want to cheer when you hear it.
Remember when they did Rocky IV without the Rocky theme? It just sucked. Wasn't Rocky.
The Superman theme is the most heroic music created. I can't think of any theme that still gives me goosebumps or brings a tear to my eye every time I hear it (well, maybe Somewhere In Time).
Superman, unlike who Bond has been, is not controlled by his film nature. He's a lot bigger than that. Especially given where they want the character world to go and where we, as a culture, are in the medium... it just doesn't fit.
#1028
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From: Formerly known as "Solid Snake PAC"/Denton, Tx
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
Exactly.
Superman is a great fucking movie, aged or not. Great filmmaking always stands, cultural/societal views and values change all the fucking time.
Superman is a great fucking movie, aged or not. Great filmmaking always stands, cultural/societal views and values change all the fucking time.
#1029
DVD Talk Hero
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
With the Reeve films as much as I like them you can definitely tell that they're products of the late seventies and eighties. Compared to other films from around the same time they stick out more as products of the era.
#1031
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
Superman: The Movie may not be perfect, but I think it holds up pretty well. To me, all of the elements that people find ridiculous/annoying/cheesy are what make it such a wonderful breath of fresh air compared to today's comic book movies. And I say that as someone with no real nostalgic attachment to the film. Despite growing up in the 80's, I never saw the Reeve series until much later in life. Even then, 9 times out of 10 I would choose to watch the original film over MoS. MoS may objectively be an ok film, but it's appeal for me is almost negligible. The only reason I'd ever revisit it would be if DC's new film universe ends up being great and I felt the need to rewatch things from the beginning.
#1032
Banned
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
Superman: The Movie may not be perfect, but I think it holds up pretty well. To me, all of the elements that people find ridiculous/annoying/cheesy are what make it such a wonderful breath of fresh air compared to today's comic book movies. And I say that as someone with no real nostalgic attachment to the film. Despite growing up in the 80's, I never saw the Reeve series until much later in life. Even then, 9 times out of 10 I would choose to watch the original film over MoS. MoS may objectively be an ok film, but it's appeal for me is almost negligible. The only reason I'd ever revisit it would be if DC's new film universe ends up being great and I felt the need to rewatch things from the beginning.
Conversely, the modern DC movies are too serious.
I think that is why I like the Marvel movies more is because they are the perfect blend of campiness and seriousness without going too far in either direction.
#1033
Member
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
Aside from Star Wars or period pieces, every movie made in the 70s and 80s looks dated by clothing, hairstyles, etc. I think things like topical jokes or homophobic jokes, stuff like that, date a movie more. The first Ted movie will feel dated in a few years if it hasn't already. Watching Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey, they use the word f *g a few times in a homophobic joke. You wouldn't see that now in a movie except in a different tone by characters that come off as douches (though funny douches) like Danny McBride characters.
#1034
DVD Talk Legend
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
I think Superman: The Movie has not only aged well (albeit with a VERY 70s vibe), it's a prime example of Donner's commitment to verisimilitude. Other than a few obvious moments (sets and blue-screen moments), it feels very real, very tangible, very much in the world we live in -- although one made larger than life to provide the sort of bigscreen thrills we expect from a Superman movie.
It's still, in my mind, the best superhero movie, and I freely admit that's clouded by nostalgia. I was 7 when the first Reeve movie came out, already a big Superman fan, and I sat in that darkened theater with a tub of popcorn as big as I was, eyes huge and glued to the screen. I don't think I blinked throughout that entire flick. The Krypton moments were fantastical, alien, odd, and beautiful. Smallville felt homey and recognizable in a idealized Norman Rockwell sort of way. And everything with Metropolis/Superman evoked my memories of visiting New York City with my parents (we visited almost every year), being small and looking up at these huge buildings and bustling traffic and hurried people, really starting to get a sense of the largeness of the world. Having a protector swoop in from the skies made perfect sense to me, as if the world needed one.
I'm ranting. I love that flick. Superman did the impossible and made me forget all about Star Wars. I'll never that December 1978 afternoon when Superman saved Lois from the helicopter crash, the fanfare kicking in, and the theater erupting with cheers and applause. Cheesy? Maybe. But dammit it worked.
It's still, in my mind, the best superhero movie, and I freely admit that's clouded by nostalgia. I was 7 when the first Reeve movie came out, already a big Superman fan, and I sat in that darkened theater with a tub of popcorn as big as I was, eyes huge and glued to the screen. I don't think I blinked throughout that entire flick. The Krypton moments were fantastical, alien, odd, and beautiful. Smallville felt homey and recognizable in a idealized Norman Rockwell sort of way. And everything with Metropolis/Superman evoked my memories of visiting New York City with my parents (we visited almost every year), being small and looking up at these huge buildings and bustling traffic and hurried people, really starting to get a sense of the largeness of the world. Having a protector swoop in from the skies made perfect sense to me, as if the world needed one.
I'm ranting. I love that flick. Superman did the impossible and made me forget all about Star Wars. I'll never that December 1978 afternoon when Superman saved Lois from the helicopter crash, the fanfare kicking in, and the theater erupting with cheers and applause. Cheesy? Maybe. But dammit it worked.
#1035
Member
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
For me personally, I think the Reeve Superman movies are just too campy. They are basically identical to the Adam West Batman TV series in terms of campiness. I like some camp, but I don't like too much.
Conversely, the modern DC movies are too serious.
I think that is why I like the Marvel movies more is because they are the perfect blend of campiness and seriousness without going too far in either direction.
Conversely, the modern DC movies are too serious.
I think that is why I like the Marvel movies more is because they are the perfect blend of campiness and seriousness without going too far in either direction.
#1036
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From: Formerly known as "Solid Snake PAC"/Denton, Tx
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
Yeah. Reeve Supes is nowhere near as camp as what West Bats is now. That's stretching it.
Also the film sets you up in a comic book world. It doesn't hide it. It LITERALLY opens up that this isn't the real world we now.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Rk1aQx9hTaE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Aged elements or not, the film as a film sets itself up very well with a tone that works it very honestly and without shame. It's hokey (now)... but it works it to such a grand degree. It doesn't hide what it is. It just it. And Donner made an epic of a film. That's insanely hard to do. It works though.
Again... it's not what we exactly need today but it is a great and classic film that will stay in film history. MoS will not. But we don't need the Reeve Supes either. That's why I prefer a MoS than a SR. SR tried to establish itself w/ modernity but couldn't do it w/ juggling Reeve tone and the hope to stamp that Supes for the modern.
I'd rather a film do something different and fail to some degree than to ape a previous preferred form and fail at it as well.
Also the film sets you up in a comic book world. It doesn't hide it. It LITERALLY opens up that this isn't the real world we now.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Rk1aQx9hTaE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Aged elements or not, the film as a film sets itself up very well with a tone that works it very honestly and without shame. It's hokey (now)... but it works it to such a grand degree. It doesn't hide what it is. It just it. And Donner made an epic of a film. That's insanely hard to do. It works though.
Again... it's not what we exactly need today but it is a great and classic film that will stay in film history. MoS will not. But we don't need the Reeve Supes either. That's why I prefer a MoS than a SR. SR tried to establish itself w/ modernity but couldn't do it w/ juggling Reeve tone and the hope to stamp that Supes for the modern.
I'd rather a film do something different and fail to some degree than to ape a previous preferred form and fail at it as well.
Last edited by Solid Snake; 07-13-15 at 09:50 AM.
#1037
DVD Talk Legend
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
60s Batman was almost farcical. 70s/80s Superman was way above that (at least the first movie and most of Superman II).
I have no defense for III and IV, but they still weren't high camp.
I have no defense for III and IV, but they still weren't high camp.
#1038
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
For me personally, I think the Reeve Superman movies are just too campy. They are basically identical to the Adam West Batman TV series in terms of campiness. I like some camp, but I don't like too much.
Conversely, the modern DC movies are too serious.
I think that is why I like the Marvel movies more is because they are the perfect blend of campiness and seriousness without going too far in either direction.
Conversely, the modern DC movies are too serious.
I think that is why I like the Marvel movies more is because they are the perfect blend of campiness and seriousness without going too far in either direction.
I don't think I would label the original Donner Superman film as camp. It's been awhile since I've seen it, but my recollection is that it's pretty earnest. Is it sillier in nature than today's comic book films? Sure it is, but that doesn't make it camp. In fact I think it pretty well embodies comic books pre-80's revisionism.
#1039
DVD Talk Hero
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
Yeah Batman is camp and it knows it. That's why in my opinion it holds up well. You don't take it seriously but for what it is it's a fun series. I think a lot of people who criticize it don't get that.
#1040
Banned
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
Personally, I don't think camp holds up well. I don't criticize it, because I did love the series when I was a kid. I just don't like it much anymore. I find that happens with a lot of campy movies and TV shows. I used to like them when I was younger, but I don't like them so much when I got older. Star Trek: The Original Series is another one that is just unbearable to watch now. Also, The A-Team... Mr. T was so badass when I was a kid... now that show comes off as so incredibly lame.
#1041
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
It was actually really faithful to the comics of the time. The comics were goofy as shit back then with wacky characters like Batmite and Ace the Bathound.
Personally, I don't think camp holds up well. I don't criticize it, because I did love the series when I was a kid. I just don't like it much anymore. I find that happens with a lot of campy movies and TV shows. I used to like them when I was younger, but I don't like them so much when I got older. Star Trek: The Original Series is another one that is just unbearable to watch now. Also, The A-Team... Mr. T was so badass when I was a kid... now that show comes off as so incredibly lame.
Personally, I don't think camp holds up well. I don't criticize it, because I did love the series when I was a kid. I just don't like it much anymore. I find that happens with a lot of campy movies and TV shows. I used to like them when I was younger, but I don't like them so much when I got older. Star Trek: The Original Series is another one that is just unbearable to watch now. Also, The A-Team... Mr. T was so badass when I was a kid... now that show comes off as so incredibly lame.
#1042
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From: Formerly known as "Solid Snake PAC"/Denton, Tx
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
Undoubtedly... it doesn't stop them from possibly being campy either. West Bats was intentional and stays as such. Shit that veers too away from tastes of modernity can be camp but it's recognizing what was made w/ what intention and not that defines where it actually falls into.
ST comes off campy today but it wasn't made like that. Same w/ Superman. Though Superman intentionally had a tone that keeps it from falling into camp cuz that's where it went w/ it. It only can be "camp" cuz people fail to recognize its intentions. Again... people don't really recognize how much work went into it.
ST comes off campy today but it wasn't made like that. Same w/ Superman. Though Superman intentionally had a tone that keeps it from falling into camp cuz that's where it went w/ it. It only can be "camp" cuz people fail to recognize its intentions. Again... people don't really recognize how much work went into it.
#1043
Banned
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
Undoubtedly... it doesn't stop them from possibly being campy either. West Bats was intentional and stays as such. Shit that veers too away from tastes of modernity can be camp but it's recognizing what was made w/ what intention and not that defines where it actually falls into.
ST comes off campy today but it wasn't made like that. Same w/ Superman. Though Superman intentionally had a tone that keeps it from falling into camp cuz that's where it went w/ it. It only can be "camp" cuz people fail to recognize its intentions. Again... people don't really recognize how much work went into it.
ST comes off campy today but it wasn't made like that. Same w/ Superman. Though Superman intentionally had a tone that keeps it from falling into camp cuz that's where it went w/ it. It only can be "camp" cuz people fail to recognize its intentions. Again... people don't really recognize how much work went into it.
#1044
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
I'm midway through the second season of Batman. I had to slow down my consumption of the show to about 30 minutes a week because material like this works best in small doses.
But, I have to say, though they are all done with a camp attitude, not all of this camp is created equal. I have seen a wide disparity is the quality of that element. Bad, low brow, witless camp is excruciating to sit through.
Towards the end of the first season and opening the second season there were more than enough eps that made me regret spending the time it took to watch them. But then something turned around and I hit a spate of well written ones that are inventive, witty, and executed at high degree all around that the show is back to being an exuberant joy to watch. It's charms are especially appreciated after some heavy content where it works as a perfect palate cleanser.
On the surface all these episodes may look alike, but they most definitely are not all the same caliber. And when everything is firing on all cylinders- the writing, the performances, the direction- it's easy to see why it precipitated such a phenomenon.
Just wanted to throw that out there.
But, I have to say, though they are all done with a camp attitude, not all of this camp is created equal. I have seen a wide disparity is the quality of that element. Bad, low brow, witless camp is excruciating to sit through.
Towards the end of the first season and opening the second season there were more than enough eps that made me regret spending the time it took to watch them. But then something turned around and I hit a spate of well written ones that are inventive, witty, and executed at high degree all around that the show is back to being an exuberant joy to watch. It's charms are especially appreciated after some heavy content where it works as a perfect palate cleanser.
On the surface all these episodes may look alike, but they most definitely are not all the same caliber. And when everything is firing on all cylinders- the writing, the performances, the direction- it's easy to see why it precipitated such a phenomenon.
Just wanted to throw that out there.
#1045
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
I'm midway through the second season of Batman. I had to slow down my consumption of the show to about 30 minutes a week because material like this works best in small doses.
But, I have to say, though they are all done with a camp attitude, not all of this camp is created equal. I have seen a wide disparity is the quality of that element. Bad, low brow, witless camp is excruciating to sit through.
Towards the end of the first season and opening the second season there were more than enough eps that made me regret spending the time it took to watch them. But then something turned around and I hit a spate of well written ones that are inventive, witty, and executed at high degree all around that the show is back to being an exuberant joy to watch. It's charms are especially appreciated after some heavy content where it works as a perfect palate cleanser.
On the surface all these episodes may look alike, but they most definitely are not all the same caliber. And when everything is firing on all cylinders- the writing, the performances, the direction- it's easy to see why it precipitated such a phenomenon.
Just wanted to throw that out there.
But, I have to say, though they are all done with a camp attitude, not all of this camp is created equal. I have seen a wide disparity is the quality of that element. Bad, low brow, witless camp is excruciating to sit through.
Towards the end of the first season and opening the second season there were more than enough eps that made me regret spending the time it took to watch them. But then something turned around and I hit a spate of well written ones that are inventive, witty, and executed at high degree all around that the show is back to being an exuberant joy to watch. It's charms are especially appreciated after some heavy content where it works as a perfect palate cleanser.
On the surface all these episodes may look alike, but they most definitely are not all the same caliber. And when everything is firing on all cylinders- the writing, the performances, the direction- it's easy to see why it precipitated such a phenomenon.
Just wanted to throw that out there.
#1046
DVD Talk Godfather
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
The goofy sci fi stuff happened after the CCA was founded, and DC went to more sci fi than detective stuff. But I always thought they were on the verge of getting rid of all that stuff when the show became a hit, which in turn influenced the comic to become even more campy.
#1047
Banned
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
The goofy sci fi stuff happened after the CCA was founded, and DC went to more sci fi than detective stuff. But I always thought they were on the verge of getting rid of all that stuff when the show became a hit, which in turn influenced the comic to become even more campy.
By 1964, sales on Batman titles had fallen drastically. Bob Kane noted that, as a result, DC was "planning to kill Batman off altogether".[43] In response to this, editor Julius Schwartz was assigned to the Batman titles. He presided over drastic changes, beginning with 1964's Detective Comics #327 (May 1964), which was cover-billed as the "New Look". Schwartz introduced changes designed to make Batman more contemporary, and to return him to more detective-oriented stories. He brought in artist Carmine Infantino to help overhaul the character. The Batmobile was redesigned, and Batman's costume was modified to incorporate a yellow ellipse behind the bat-insignia. The space aliens, time travel, and characters of the 1950s such as Batwoman, Ace, and Bat-Mite were retired. Batman's butler Alfred was killed off (though his death was quickly reversed) while a new female relative for the Wayne family, Aunt Harriet, came to live with Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson.[44]
The debut of the Batman television series in 1966 had a profound influence on the character. The success of the series increased sales throughout the comic book industry, and Batman reached a circulation of close to 900,000 copies.[45] Elements such as the character of Batgirl and the show's campy nature were introduced into the comics; the series also initiated the return of Alfred. Although both the comics and TV show were successful for a time, the camp approach eventually wore thin and the show was canceled in 1968. In the aftermath, the Batman comics themselves lost popularity once again. As Julius Schwartz noted, "When the television show was a success, I was asked to be campy, and of course when the show faded, so did the comic books."[46]
The debut of the Batman television series in 1966 had a profound influence on the character. The success of the series increased sales throughout the comic book industry, and Batman reached a circulation of close to 900,000 copies.[45] Elements such as the character of Batgirl and the show's campy nature were introduced into the comics; the series also initiated the return of Alfred. Although both the comics and TV show were successful for a time, the camp approach eventually wore thin and the show was canceled in 1968. In the aftermath, the Batman comics themselves lost popularity once again. As Julius Schwartz noted, "When the television show was a success, I was asked to be campy, and of course when the show faded, so did the comic books."[46]
It's kind of weird that Batman was so unpopular in 1964 that they almost decided to end the character right then and there. It's weird to think how different things would be today without Batman considering he has been consistently the most popular superhero by far ever since Burton's movie.
I know X-Men were initially very unpopular as well, and the X-Men comic actually was canceled at one point time in the late 1960s.
#1048
DVD Talk Hero
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
I've seen Superman Returns a couple dozen times now, and it still gives me goosebumps when it's supposed to and I'm still thrilled with it. I've seen MoS five or six times and have yet to encounter a single goosebump. I'd pay real money to visit an alternate universe where Singer got to make another Routh Superman movie.
#1049
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
You've seen this more than 24 times?
#1050
Re: "Superman Returns"...the reviews thread.
I've seen Superman Returns a couple dozen times now, and it still gives me goosebumps when it's supposed to and I'm still thrilled with it. I've seen MoS five or six times and have yet to encounter a single goosebump. I'd pay real money to visit an alternate universe where Singer got to make another Routh Superman movie.
And if we're talking alternate worlds, I want to go to the one where Singer stays with Fox and makes X-Men 3 instead of Superman Returns.



