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Just Saw Matrix: Revolutions (Thoughts)

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Just Saw Matrix: Revolutions (Thoughts)

Old 11-09-03, 10:04 AM
  #326  
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Originally posted by chanster
Please. The "philosphy of the Matrix" is a bunch of jumble and by including historical names for their characters, the W. Bros were trying to empower folks who thought they are smart because they can do a google search.


So true.. so very, very true.
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Old 11-09-03, 12:19 PM
  #327  
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So if Agent Smith could see what was going to happen you'd think he saw what would happen to him when he took over Neo. I take it that Smith did know and did it anyway as he was performing what he was programmed to do and he and Neo both accepted their fates.
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Old 11-09-03, 12:56 PM
  #328  
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Originally posted by Pauly
Why do some people here seem angry at the very idea of the Wachowski's trying to instill some thought-provoking ideas in these films?? "You mean I have to THINK a bit to figure these movies out?? How DARE THEY!!!" I dont get it
McSymbolism(*) isn't exactly thought-provoking.


*This word is copyright BigPete, 2003

Last edited by BigPete; 11-09-03 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 11-09-03, 02:19 PM
  #329  
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I feel very strongly that the end of Matrix is the perfect way to end the story- Neo in the Matrix says "I am going to show them something that you don' want to see" and then flys off. I felt the W Bros were implying that change would come from inside the Matrix- Neo would be able to show people that their world is not the real world and forment a revolution of some sort from within.
Some would accept the change, others wouldn't want it (Cypher-ites)

The Animatrix showed a few of the neat possibilities in this - the story about the runner who escapes the Matrix, the Kid, and the Haunted House story..but alas that whole idea was abandoned and we are left with a story about Zion, who even in the movies, could not beat the computers.
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Old 11-09-03, 02:26 PM
  #330  
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I just saw it and I don't really want to get into the semantics about what was good or bad about the movie. I just want to say:

They completely wasted Monica Bellucci in these movies. What's the point of putting here in there if you only give her 2 lines and 30 minutes of screen time? Couldn't she have been the Merovingian?
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Old 11-09-03, 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by drunkrob
So if Agent Smith could see what was going to happen you'd think he saw what would happen to him when he took over Neo. I take it that Smith did know and did it anyway as he was performing what he was programmed to do and he and Neo both accepted their fates.
Agent Smith couldn't see that Neo was going to allow him to take over his body, or at least he couldn't see beyond that. Remember, it was repeated several times in Reloaded and Revolutions, you cannot see beyond the choices you don't understand. Smith could not understand sacrificing oneself to save others, so he would have no idea what would happen beyond what appears to be Neo's surrender...
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Old 11-09-03, 02:42 PM
  #332  
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I've seen it twice this weekend and will say that I enjoyed it much more than Reloaded.

I didn't think it was the perfect ending but I'll take it. I'm going to have to go over that link that Otto posted at a later time.


Very good movie in my opinion and one that I will definitely be purchasing.
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Old 11-09-03, 03:07 PM
  #333  
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This movie sucked.
Put this movie among the other number 3's as SMOKEY & BANDIT 3, ALIEN 3, SUPERMAN 3.
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Old 11-09-03, 03:10 PM
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This may be too far out there, but since every name is a referent to some historical, important, epic character...The A-hole captain in the beginning is referred to by Morpheus as "Roland". Is this a nod to Stephan King's Darktower series, another epic, or is there another important "Roland", or am a reaching?
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Old 11-09-03, 03:15 PM
  #335  
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Originally posted by wm lopez
SUPERMAN 3.
Whoa, whoa! Let's not say things we can't take back here, okay?

One more thought... Like a lot of movies, this thing sticks to it's plot and none of the characters ever consider the alternatives. I mean, like how they could have won the war in about half an hour. Look, if they can get above the clouds, even for a bit, and actually make it to 01, then a few choice EMPs in the right place and voila, you win. Game freakin' over. Okay, so it takes some planning and strategy beyond "fire bullets at the machines endlessly until they overwhelm us with sheer numbers"...

Last edited by Otto; 11-09-03 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 11-09-03, 03:20 PM
  #336  
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Originally posted by jim_cook87
Agent Smith couldn't see that Neo was going to allow him to take over his body, or at least he couldn't see beyond that. Remember, it was repeated several times in Reloaded and Revolutions, you cannot see beyond the choices you don't understand. Smith could not understand sacrificing oneself to save others, so he would have no idea what would happen beyond what appears to be Neo's surrender...
You're just hypothesizing like everyone else is, me included. Smith stopped what he did and questioned what he was seeing and seemed shocked by the implications but then went through with it anyway. I'm not saying you are wrong or that I am right but the makers didn't spell it out for us either way.
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Old 11-09-03, 03:53 PM
  #337  
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10 questions for you Matrix Revolutions lovers. Sorry for the length...

1. If the machine society is so utilitarian that they delete any program that doesn't have a purpose, why do most programs seem to be capable of independent thought that is not related to their purpose?

For instance, the program in charge of power plant recycling happens to philosophize about love and karma, and has a wife and daughter. Why isn't he just a script that says "if human.IsDead() recycle(human)"? After hearing him talk, I expected one of the sentinels to start spouting off poetry, or staging an anti-war protest. What about all the bug-bots and swaying buildings in the machine city? Do all of them have wives? Do they all have thoughts and feelings? If so, why aren't such capabilities deleted, since except for a few exceptions, such thoughts and feelings are not helpful toward their designated purpose. This is the same problem I had with the Animatrix cartoons. They showed construction robots looking wistfully at the horizon, wishing they were free. Why the heck do they feel anything at all?! Were the humans that created AI so cruel that they decided to put it in everything, from the sex-bot to the toaster? If so, why did the machines continue this legacy?


2. What is the source of Agent Smith's power?

Answers in Oracle-speak, about balancing equations or whatnot, are not sufficient for me. I can understand that when Neo "hacked" Smith at the end of the first movie, he passed onto him the ability to choose (of course, it seems most machines, like Recycle-bot, can make choices without being hacked by the One). But why didn't any previous "the One's" do this? How did Smith come back? How does that give Smith the power to multiply? To take over other programs? Humans in the Matrix? Humans OUTSIDE the Matrix? Neo doesn't have any powers like that. He doesn't have any powers that are "opposite" or "negative" to that. Where did Smith get the ability to fly? I didn't notice that the Oracle could fly. Come to think of it, I thought that, according to Morpheus in the first movie, the machines (Agents in particular) are bound to the rules of the Matrix. Yet all of Merv's henchman have special powers (haven't seen that Merv does himself). They are all mini-Neo's that can bend the laws of the Matrix to their will. And by the end of Revolutions, Smith has all of Neo's powers, AND he can multiply. Where did all of this come from?

3. What is Smith's motivation?

I guess it's clear that he just wants to exploit his new power and take over or destroy all that he can. But still, after his wonderful speech to Morpheus in the Matrix ("this zoo, this prison") it would have been nice to see him revisit that and talk about what he wanted some more. Also, why did he help the machines by blowing the EMP as Bane? And how did Bane not get killed in that battle? Could he blow up sentinels with his mind like Neo?

4. Why did the machines need Neo to destroy Smith?

The machines had access to every single human, and probably every program, that Smith had assimilated. Why couldn't they just upload their little you-blow-up-now virus through one of those folks? The obvious "answer" is that "Neo is the One, and is special, and is joined with the source, and only he could do it, because he's the One, and blah blah blah". Well, that's real convenient for the plot, and for whatever spiritual or philosophical allegory the audience wants to assign to Neo's sacrifice, but I think it's weak writing, and makes the audience have to come up with justification that they can never feel certain about. This seems to be a major strategy of the Matrix trilogy: go ahead and leave things unexplained, let the audience try and come up with reasoning for it.

5. Why is everyone, humans and machines alike, suddenly so content with the idea of peace?

After the dust settles, humans are still "born into bondage", trapped in a "prison for their mind." You'd think Morpheus wouldn't be so content. I always got the impression that he wanted to win the war. The little bit between the Oracle and the Architect at the end seems to indicate that they will let loose anyone who wants to be free. Huh? How can anyone decide to leave the Matrix unless Zion rebels are in there telling them about it? Wasn't that what pissed the machines off? Wasn't that why they had the Agents, trying to catch the rebels? Wasn't that why they eventually have to destroy Zion and start over? Prior to this whole event, the machines had complete control over their system. Sure, they had to manage the trouble caused by Zion and the rebels, and eventually kill their momentum by destroying the city and reloading. But they were still in control. It's clear that the Oracle was indeed a "good guy" and wanted to end this cycle, but I'm not clear why. Nor do I understand why the other machines would go along with it, especially after both Smith and Neo have been destroyed.

And boy, the humans sure are lucky that Smith got so powerful, huh? It seems to me that the most important moment in the whole trilogy was when Neo hacked Smith and gave him all this power. Otherwise, Neo would not have had any leverage in order to bargain for peace. Of course, I still don't understand why the machines needed him in particular, or why no previous "the One's" did the same thing to Smith.

6. What is the deal with Merv?

What's the relation between him and the Oracle? Him and the Architect? Him and his wife? Why did she betray him in the first movie? Just because he was fooling around with other women? Why is he considered to be so powerful, if he can just be shot in the head? Even Agents and the twin ghosts are tougher than that. How did Morpheus and Sarif and Trinity get out of the club after Neo was freed? Did they hold a gun to Merv's head the whole time? That's a bit of a nitpick, but I still think someone like Merv would be a bit better defended against gun-to-your-head diplomacy.

Another thing I was always curious about was how similar the path of previous One's was to Neo's. It seems that Merv certainly had had experiences with previous One's. Did they steal the Keymaker too? Didn't Merv realize that Neo needed the Keymaker in order to reload? Or else the Matrix would be destroyed?

7. What's the deal with the conversation between Neo and the Architect?

Why did he give Neo the choice between saving Trinity and reloading? I still don't understand this one. I was hoping for a lot more clarification on the conversation between Neo and the Architect. What about the Architect saying all humans would be destroyed? Again, the Oracle's mumbo-jumbo about balancing equations and seeing past choices was not sufficient for me.

8. If getting past the machine defenses is as easy as flying over them, why hasn't anyone done it before?

First of all, the machines can fly. Their main defense is built upon thousands of sentinels. Sentinels which can fly. Looks like Zion should have been built up above the clouds, where no machine can reach them.

9. Why didn't Zion have any EMP's that weren't mounted to ships?!

This made absolutely no sense. Even if they were hesitant to use them for fear of knocking out their own defenses, they should have one for use as a last resort. Hell, they should have had more than one. Any competant leader would have installed non mounted EMP's in all the trenches leading into the city. Ever heard of a minefield? This was just a contrived complication so that we could watch Niobe do her trench run.

10. Why could Neo destroy sentinels again?

His power extends to the source or something? Yeah, it's great to be the One, isn't it? Need a new power so that the plot can continue? Sure! You're the One! That's all the explanation we need. You know what? I can read source code too. That doesn't mean I can throw fatal exceptions on computers with my brain.

Last edited by Astro; 11-09-03 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 11-09-03, 05:19 PM
  #338  
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Most of those are very valid points. The answer to most of them is, "It's a movie", or "It's a movie that deliberately leaves questions unanswered (possibly too many of them)". Some of them are just parts of the premise that you have to accept (like the ridiculous idea introduced in the original movie that the machines need humans for energy). Some of them are things that were deliberately left open to debate. Others were loosely explained plot contrivances that served some other purpose.

I guess what I'm saying is, in some cases you're thinking too much, and in some cases you're thinking too little. Thematically the whole thing makes sense, and literally it makes probably as much sense as it was ever intended to.

However, I'll give a specific answer to one of your points (parts of it at least):

Originally posted by Astro
5. Why is everyone, humans and machines alike, suddenly so content with the idea of peace?
First of all, this is a flawed premise. There's no evidence that any of the surviving humans are content with the idea of peace. The fact that there will probably be many humans who are not content with it is likely to be the humans' downfall at some point in the future.

After the dust settles, humans are still "born into bondage", trapped in a "prison for their mind."
Yes, but if they are someone who would rather leave than stay, they will be able to, and they (or their descendants) won't eventually be killed by the Sentinels.

The little bit between the Oracle and the Architect at the end seems to indicate that they will let loose anyone who wants to be free. Huh? How can anyone decide to leave the Matrix unless Zion rebels are in there telling them about it? Wasn't that what pissed the machines off? Wasn't that why they had the Agents, trying to catch the rebels?
No! The people of Zion are not "rebels", they are an integral part of the overall system of the Matrix. The point of the Agents is to make people think the machines don't want them to leave the Matrix, when in fact is it absolutely vital that people leave the Matrix. The reason for this was to preserve the myth surrounding the One.

So now there's no reason to create the illusion that the people of Zion are "rebels", and no reason the machines should try to stop people leaving the Matrix. It's even possible that the Agents will be deleted, and/or that the machines will help to get people out of the Matrix.

And boy, the humans sure are lucky that Smith got so powerful, huh? It seems to me that the most important moment in the whole trilogy was when Neo hacked Smith and gave him all this power. Otherwise, Neo would not have had any leverage in order to bargain for peace.
Is it so unreasonable that the ending of the original movie is the most important moment in the whole trilogy (or at least a major turning point in the story)? :P

Last edited by Philip Reuben; 11-09-03 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 11-09-03, 08:02 PM
  #339  
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