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Just Saw Matrix: Revolutions (Thoughts)

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Just Saw Matrix: Revolutions (Thoughts)

Old 11-08-03, 07:54 AM
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that what they were trying to do? Or were they trying to spark thoughts like those on display in this thread?
Please. The "philosphy of the Matrix" is a bunch of jumble and by including historical names for their characters, the W. Bros were trying to empower folks who thought they are smart because they can do a google search. If you look at the last two movies, what you will basically see is that there is three choices outlined -

"Cause and Effect" - Wow. What a brillant theory. (Merovingian) Thats so deep

"Choices are already determined for us, we just have to understand them" - Oracle

"Inevitability of sameness" - Smith

My personal favorite example of weakness is the "matrix within matrix" theory. Its a ridicoulous theory that is espoused by those trying to come up with a solution for the "Neo in real world powers" Simply put the last 2 movies showed the real and matrix world could be breached (Smith using the phone, the trainman) etc but "matrix in a matrix people" refuse to see it.

I personally think that "matrix within matrix supporters" are actually die-hard fans of the first movie who CANNOT ACCEPT what the Bros gobbleygook in 2 and 3 and so are reverting to "nothing is real world" So they think everything is a fraud.
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Old 11-08-03, 08:36 AM
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I loved the film. I thought it was the perfect ending. When you left the theater of the original Matrix did you have questions? After Reloaded, more questions? Revolutions wouldn't have been a Matrix movie without leaving you quesioning what you saw. I think it would have been kinda lame to tie everything up perfectly.

Did no one see the orange glowing cross when Neo was lying there on the Sentinal platform?

I had some minor quips with some things:
Locke (I think) mentions that no ship has come within 100 km of the surface, it is too dangerous, yet basically the next scene Neo and Trin are, boom, there. Nothing got in the way it was just a smooth ride.

Hopping in and out of the Matrix without any questions asked. In the first two movies they have to find their 'out' phone call. This one they were just popping in and out with no interference with agents or Smith whatsoever.

Those are my only two problems with the film, and those are definitely minor.

As for Sati. They are sending her to the Matrix because she serves no purpose right? Purpose in the real world. That doesn't mean she can't have purpose in the Matrix. Possibly freeing people.

I did like how they explained the different actress playing the oracle. Even though I thought she was very sub-par to the original actress.

Anyway... .
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Old 11-08-03, 01:41 PM
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Dont watch it if you are looking for action only

The movie was awesome. It's not an action flick, so don't go in thinking to see alot of fights and chase scenes on a freeway. The movie seeks to explain people's roles in the matrix and does a creative job at explaining why things happen(ed). The visuals are amazing and imaginative. But in the end, you have to read what you want out of it. Of course, there are severe religious undertones to the movie and will make more sense if you watch it in this sense, but this one can be peeled in many ways, making the movie as fun and interesting to discuss as is your own imagination.
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Old 11-08-03, 01:46 PM
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Hi - after the first 20 minutes or so the third film was nearly wall-to-wall action. That's mostly the problem with it.
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Old 11-08-03, 01:47 PM
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sweet Jebus what a load of crap!!!!!!!!!!
now I don't even know what the point was for Reloaded and Revolutions.......what the hell was the point???? nothing has changed in the "real" world.....I guess that's why it was called Revolutions: it took us back to the beginning of the story. The real world is still a filthy, disgusting, sunless (that last sun was in the matrix), rave-plagued place with bad fashion and horrible hairstyles. The first movie had a point, but nothing, NOTHING happened in the other movies that was even minutely interesting--except it made me think, "wow, if someone who knows how to write a good Superman/Spider-Man/Watchmen script gets hold of this software, they could make a really good movie." but these brothers aren't getting another dime of my money.
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Old 11-08-03, 01:57 PM
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Terrible movie. I can and will say more, but all one really has to say to point out the vacuous banality of both sequels is point out one simple thing:

It ends with a sunrise.

That was a cliche in 1903, let alone 2003. How pathetic and unoriginal; just like the films.

Also, for all the new age/alternative religion/philosophical people out there who pretend these flix are genius: How does it feel to have the whole thing wrapped up in a totally traditional, seen it a thousand times, Christ allegory?

Remember when everyone used to compare the first Matrix to Dark City and say that Dark City was better and all the Matrix fans would get pissed? How does it feel being a fan when the final Smith/Neo battle is so blatantly similar to the finale of Dark City?

Last edited by Pants; 11-08-03 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 11-08-03, 02:06 PM
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Originally posted by TCG
well, why would they be allowed to live, and then never shown again?
So should every character be killed unless they're going to appear again? :P

It's not like the twins were even major villains. They're just henchmen that got used in Reloaded and not in Revolutions.

Originally posted by ScandalUMD
I suspect that there's a deleted scene, or an unfilmed scene in the screenplay, where Smith comes for the Merovingian and Persephone.

If there's not, there should have been. I was waiting for it the whole movie. If the Architect and the Oracle are yin and yang forces, then the Merovingian analogizes similarly to the Agents.
I don't see how the Merovingian is the yin to the Agents' yang, but I might get it if you explain it to me.

However, Smith himself definitely doesn't fit that description. Smith was the "opposite" of Neo, and no one else.

Originally posted by ScandalUMD
Actually, I think all the people in the Matrix must have died. Smith seems to have consumed everybody. There was nobody but Smith in the Matrix during the final battle, and the city was empty in the last scene, after he was destroyed.

I'd suppose that the Machines would have to start growing a fresh crop.
It's possible, but I don't think one city - parts of one city, in fact - being empty is enough evidence to draw a conclusion.

Originally posted by Michael Corvin
Locke (I think) mentions that no ship has come within 100 km of the surface, it is too dangerous, yet basically the next scene Neo and Trin are, boom, there. Nothing got in the way it was just a smooth ride.
I might be remembering wrongly, but I'm pretty sure it was within 100km of the machine city, not the surface. I think the idea is that they were around that far from the city when the machines started attacking them (and Neo had to fight them off).

Originally posted by f1shf00d
nothing has changed in the "real" world.....
But things will change, which wasn't definitely the case until the end of Revolutions. It seems strange that you consider the first movie to have a point but not the other two, because when you think about it, the characters had actually achieved very little by the end of the original movie. The Matrix only works as a standalone film with a good ending if you assume lots of things about what will happen next. (Note that the real world was most certainly still a "filthy, disgusting, sunless, rave-plagued place with bad fashion and horrible hairstyles" at the end of the original movie...)

Don't get me wrong, I love The Matrix, and it certainly works as a standalone film with a good ending But I feel that some people glorify it too much when comparing it to the ending of Revolutions.
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Old 11-08-03, 02:40 PM
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Alrighty boys and girls.. after reading this post (warning: it's long):
http://www.dungeoneternal.com/phpBB2...?p=18816#18816
I'm a bit more satisfied with the film. Some of the things said in Reloaded make a lot more sense now, and it adequately explains why Neo can jack in wirelessly and have some form of control over the machines.

Essentially, it revolves around the fact that Neo was created by the machines for specific reasons. I don't buy the machine implants part of the post, thinking that it could be done with pure genetic manipulation, but it does fill in the gaps to some degree. It also fits in with Smith being able to enter the other dude's mind.. Brains are much like computers and I can cope with that aspect of it.

And I never would have thought about the cookie. In retrospect, they showed "food being code" in the second movie and so I should have thought of that. Not to mention that the Oracle in the third movie hoped to have some cookies ready for Smith as well (wonder what that was about).. Anyway, I think it's a good and complicated story that could have been better explained without making it totally obvious and clear.

The post is worth a read, IMO.

Last edited by Otto; 11-08-03 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 11-08-03, 04:12 PM
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THAT was an excellent post. That guy has a much better attention span than I do, as I missed a lot of those details.

I really really liked this movie. Great finish to a great trilogy.
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Old 11-08-03, 04:18 PM
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Like you I don't agree with every little detail of that post... but it certainly made some things a lot clearer, and was very interesting.
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Old 11-08-03, 04:29 PM
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I'm thinking his matrix jacks became wireless, like a wireless network card. but it should have been explained in the movie

Originally posted by jim_cook87
The Matrix-in-a-Matrix theory stems entirely from attempting to explain how Neo can effect the machines in the real world. The films offer no explanation, they merely ask you to accept that his abilities have crossed into that world, one can draw many conclusions that fit the situation and cannot be refuted in any way other than "I don't like that theory." Present any explanation for how Neo could affect machines in the real world and I can retort that your conclusion is "unsupported and wholly external to the films."

But, again, the way the Wachowski brothers structured the movies it's irrelevant to understanding the trilogy...
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Old 11-08-03, 06:33 PM
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So while standing at a bar last night and while picking up a fan at CompUSA this morning, I learned that The Matrix was a horrible, boring movie that has no redeeming qualities, Reloaded was a sci-fi masterpiece, and Revolutions was somewhere in the middle. A total of 7 people were echoing the same sentiment.

Consider yourselves educated.

Last edited by BigPete; 11-08-03 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 11-08-03, 07:48 PM
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Originally posted by Otto
Alrighty boys and girls.. after reading this post (warning: it's long):
http://www.dungeoneternal.com/phpBB2...?p=18816#18816
I'm a bit more satisfied with the film. Some of the things said in Reloaded make a lot more sense now, and it adequately explains why Neo can jack in wirelessly and have some form of control over the machines.

Essentially, it revolves around the fact that Neo was created by the machines for specific reasons. I don't buy the machine implants part of the post, thinking that it could be done with pure genetic manipulation, but it does fill in the gaps to some degree. It also fits in with Smith being able to enter the other dude's mind.. Brains are much like computers and I can cope with that aspect of it.

And I never would have thought about the cookie. In retrospect, they showed "food being code" in the second movie and so I should have thought of that. Not to mention that the Oracle in the third movie hoped to have some cookies ready for Smith as well (wonder what that was about).. Anyway, I think it's a good and complicated story that could have been better explained without making it totally obvious and clear.

The post is worth a read, IMO.
I think it's a good effort, but there is an inherent fallacy in trying to find a reason why Neo is "the One" or to try and explain what makes him "The One" when the movie makes no effort to do so.

Maybe he's genetically modified. Maybe he's some kind of cyborg. Maybe he has a wireless network card installed in his head. Maybe he's the son of God. Maybe he's wearing the ruby slippers. It doesn't really matter.

I don't see why you can suspend disbelief that the operators can "hack" people into the Matrix, and the ships can "broadcast" them, but you can't accept Neo being able to do this without the assistance of a ship or an operator. Why not? He is, after all, "the One."
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Old 11-08-03, 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by Otto
Alrighty boys and girls.. after reading this post (warning: it's long):
http://www.dungeoneternal.com/phpBB2...?p=18816#18816
I'm a bit more satisfied with the film. Some of the things said in Reloaded make a lot more sense now, and it adequately explains why Neo can jack in wirelessly and have some form of control over the machines.

Essentially, it revolves around the fact that Neo was created by the machines for specific reasons. I don't buy the machine implants part of the post, thinking that it could be done with pure genetic manipulation, but it does fill in the gaps to some degree. It also fits in with Smith being able to enter the other dude's mind.. Brains are much like computers and I can cope with that aspect of it.

And I never would have thought about the cookie. In retrospect, they showed "food being code" in the second movie and so I should have thought of that. Not to mention that the Oracle in the third movie hoped to have some cookies ready for Smith as well (wonder what that was about).. Anyway, I think it's a good and complicated story that could have been better explained without making it totally obvious and clear.

The post is worth a read, IMO.
read the link otto posted above, and it's definately in line with what i was thinking...with a few details i hadn't considered. well worth a read and it expanded my appreciation for the trilogy quite a bit...though i enjoyed it quite a bit anyway.

i'm inclined to think that these films will only gain appreciation with age as more people figure them out.

i'm not saying that anyone is stupid if they didn't like the movie, just that the films are vague, bordering on obtuse. even after watching the first two and the animatrix several times, i still missed much of the symbolism in revolutions.

otto, i'm sure a few will complain, but that link is probably worthy of it's own thread entitled "matrix decoded (spoilers)" or something like that. your call, but regardless, thanks for the link.
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Old 11-08-03, 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by Patman
The flying battle between Smith and Neo reminded me of the battle in Alan Moore's "Miracleman" between Miracleman and Johnny Bates (Kid Miracleman), which was a vicious fight in the rain as well. I really thought this sequence was just amazing to watch because it captured the sheer power of the 2 combatants as they fought in the sky.
That's exactly what I was reminded of too. I left the theater thinking the Wachohski brothers should be put in charge of a Miracleman movie, not Superman. Of course, some of the ideas between the Matrix and Miracleman are similar enough that people would claim they were just retreading ground they had already covered(even if Alan Moore did do it first).
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Old 11-08-03, 09:24 PM
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I really liked it, much better than Reloaded, in fact.

Great action, good resolution to lingering issues... Sure the symbolism was a little over the top, but it was good just the same. Totally different from the first one, of course, but a very satisfactory ending to the trilogy overall.
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Old 11-08-03, 11:00 PM
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If you have to read a long message board post to understand, appreciate, or enjoy a film, that film is a failure.

I think the reason people were looking forward to the "twins" in the third film was because they are *cool*, and there was so little *coolness* in the third movie, as opposed to the first two.
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Old 11-09-03, 12:18 AM
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I saw it tonight. It was decent. Much, better than Reloaded. The special effects during the attack on Zion were simply amazing. Far and away the best in any movie.
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Old 11-09-03, 02:26 AM
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Oh my goodness. What an inexplicably terrible movie. Terrible.
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Old 11-09-03, 02:37 AM
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I saw it Saturday, I enjoyed it. Didn't love it, but it was good and got me thinking about the little things. I liked reading the analysis from that message board post.
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Old 11-09-03, 03:11 AM
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Watching this movie was reminiscent of being abducted by aliens. After a few hours, I couldn't remember anything and my ass hurt.
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Old 11-09-03, 04:36 AM
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Originally posted by ScandalUMD
I think it's a good effort, but there is an inherent fallacy in trying to find a reason why Neo is "the One" or to try and explain what makes him "The One" when the movie makes no effort to do so.

Maybe he's genetically modified. Maybe he's some kind of cyborg. Maybe he has a wireless network card installed in his head. Maybe he's the son of God. Maybe he's wearing the ruby slippers. It doesn't really matter.

I don't see why you can suspend disbelief that the operators can "hack" people into the Matrix, and the ships can "broadcast" them, but you can't accept Neo being able to do this without the assistance of a ship or an operator. Why not? He is, after all, "the One."
No, it does really matter. Just saying "he's the One" ain't a freakin' explanation. He's still a human being, made of human parts. This is science fiction, not magic fantasy BS.

I can suspend disbelief that they can broadcast a signal to hack into the Matrix because it's a natural consequence of current technology. Assuming you could create a VR simulation like the Matrix, and assuming there existed an interface to jack directly into the brain, then it's still a two way data stream and you can transmit it wirelessly via radio signals.

But having Neo do it without the help of machinery is a whole other thing. It implies that he has an ability inherent to him physically as opposed to an ability inherent only mentally. The first movie said he was "the One" because he could see the Matrix for what it was and control it to some degree. Okay, I can cope with that, because all it's saying is that he can adjust the data stream on a more fundamental level than the others and impose changes on the data in the VR simulation directly. Nothing physical about it.

Now at the end of the second movie and throughout the third movie, he's got powers that are more than data manipulation. He can send and receive and interpret radio signals directly, without the aid of obvious machinery. This is a much greater level of sophistication and it shoots my suspension of disbelief all to hell. Because now he's not a human with special mental capabilities, but a human with special physical capabilities as well. And without adequate explanation behind these physical capabilties, I don't buy it just because he's "the One". That's not a satisfactory reason.

Edit: Admittedly, there is some foreshadowing in the first movie to suggest that Neo has special physical capabilities (via implants, genetic manipulation, whatever). Specifically, when he's learning Kung Fu and Jujitsu and such, the phrase "he's a machine" is uttered. And when he's fighting Morpheus a comment is made about his "neural kinetics" (whatever the hell that is supposed to be) being way above normal. But they don't follow up on it in the later movies in order to show that to be the case. So the theory that he's not a normal physical human being has merit, but they didn't actually say it outright or do enough to imply it to actually be the case.

Last edited by Otto; 11-09-03 at 04:45 AM.
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Old 11-09-03, 09:01 AM
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I saw the film a second time, on IMAX no less, and the film flowed much better for me, and I was still touched by all of the scenes of "goodbye" given the history of the characters and their battle for a non-oppressive future by the machines.

Seriously, after reading all of the posts so far in this thread, most of the disappointment has to come from "customer expectations" and not from the actual story that was unfolding before their very eyes. Most of the criticism comes from not getting more of the backstory of the Matrix and the ancilliary characters introduced in Reloaded. But, to me, it's a short-sighted view, and I hope those disappointed can look at the progression of the films and come to appreciate the amazing tale told in these 3 Matrix films and how much we take for granted.

If people don't get what they want, it's natural to slag the things they didn't like or want. I get that, now. It's too bad they feel this way, but so be it. You can't make everyone happy, and I'm damn glad the Wachowski told their tale as well as they did because it's actually a trilogy worth looking underneath the surface for themes and philosophical and metaphysical discussions.

I get confused by comments like "the dock battle went on too long" because this is a climatic battle for humanity, and you put a timer on it? The battle went on for as long as it needed to and not a second longer. The interspersing of the overview shots and the little individual stories within the battle were done well to show the grit and the courage of the human soldiers fighting a war to save their future in the face of overwhelming odds. The metallic calamari are relentless, and how much courage would you show in face of it all? These characters fought for their lives because the choice to do otherwise was not an acceptable one. They fought to keep alive their connection to one another.

Have we become too jaded by CGI and special effect to not appreciate the amazing work that is done to tell a story? I guess I find the dismissive criticisms very dismaying, but hey, you paid your money, you get to speak your mind. I just wish people would judge the films on the story being told, not on how they wanted the story to unfold. But this is the crux for many "sequels" in that if you don't quite give the audience what it thinks it wants, you risk alienating them. So be it. I admire the guts of the Wachowski Brothers to remain true to their vision and not pandering to the expectations of others.

------------

Just some minor points that came out after my second viewing:

Sati = potential. Before her, programs = purpose. Now, the creativity aspect of programs gets ramped up to a new level, this gets into a new level of A.I. and puts a new spin on things inside the Matrix.

Trinity's death scene. Was it too long? Well, it felt shorter to me on the second viewing. When you know you are going to die, coherency goes out of the window, and your last thoughts are your last thoughts. Most people don't get a second chance at them. Considering Keanu couldn't give us tears for the "tear-jerker" response (since he eyes were bandaged), I thought he did more than enough to let the audience understand Neo's pain of forever separating from his connection with Trinity, the one he would put before all else in his world.

Morpheus and Neo's goodbye. Seldom do you really know when someone you have come to love and respect is going away forever, but when you do and you know it has to be done, it's the forging of a mutual bond of love and trust that allows both of them to acknowledge the price that must be paid for their common goals to be achieved.

Mifune's death scene. Good gracious, seeing that on an IMAX screen once is enough! That was pretty gruesome the second time around (his lacerated face). But in the face of the horrors of war, he soldiered on, and got the Kid to find the courage to get the job done.

The CGI/Special Effects on an IMAX screen was pretty impressive when viewing them in concert with an equally impressive sound system. I really felt like I was inside the dock and dodging all the squiddies flying around, causing havoc and destruction all over the place. The scenes of the Machine City were just as awe-inspiring given the scope and care in the design of it all.

------------

I will say that thematically, I have thought of different scenarios for the film's ending, but when I do, I always acknowledge that the Wachowski Brothers made the correct choice for their story:

1. Have Trinity survive the crash, and then see Neo making the deal to fight to rid the Matrix of the Smiths, and being sacrificed and returned to the source. Trinity would be the one who lost the most in this battle for humanity (while cutting back to Zion and the celebration for a contrast between the reaction to the events). While this would ramp up the tears factor, thematically it undercuts Neo's journey: where he is discovered, given the hero's journey, not really knowing if he really is the one, and and gives the good fight for the one he loves, Trinity. But if Neo didn't lose everything, he couldn't give his all in the final encounter with Smith to save humanity.

Sure, the final ending/sacrifice as it plays out is dripping with religious undertones, but I think it works given this new mythology of a cautionary tale of man's future with machines.
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Old 11-09-03, 09:01 AM
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BTW, here's the dialog between the Architect and the Oracle at the park bench:

Oracle: Well now, ain't this a surprise.

Architect: You play a very dangerous game.

Oracle: Change always is.

Architect: Just how long do you think this peace is going to last?

Oracle: As long as it can.

Architect: Hmmph

Oracle: What about the others?

Architect: What others?

Oracle: The ones that want out?

Architect: Obviously, they will be freed.

Oracle: I have your word?

Architect: What do you think I am...human? *turns and leaves*

Oracle: *smiles at emerging sunrise*

-----

Here's the dialog right afterwards between the Oracle, Sati and Seraph:

Sati: Oracle!!!

Oracle: *laughs*

Sati: We were afraid we weren't going to find you.

Oracle: Everything's okay now.

Sati: Look! Look! *points to the sunrise*

Oracle: Just look at that. Beautiful. Did you do that?

Sati: *nods proudly* For Neo.

Oracle: That's nice. I know he'd love it.

Sati: Will we ever see him again?

Oracle: I suspect so...someday... *turns, gets up off the bench*

Seraph: Did you always know?

Oracle: Oh no, no I didn't. But I believed....I believed. *grins*

Cue the swelling musical score, shot of the sunrise over the cityscape.

(post amended to correct words)

Last edited by Patman; 11-09-03 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 11-09-03, 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by chanster
Please. The "philosphy of the Matrix" is a bunch of jumble and by including historical names for their characters, the W. Bros were trying to empower folks who thought they are smart because they can do a google search.
Why do some people here seem angry at the very idea of the Wachowski's trying to instill some thought-provoking ideas in these films?? "You mean I have to THINK a bit to figure these movies out?? How DARE THEY!!!" I dont get it
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