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Just Saw Matrix: Revolutions (Thoughts)

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Just Saw Matrix: Revolutions (Thoughts)

Old 11-07-03, 03:43 PM
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i'd go to see that one.........lets have an Animatrix 2 and kill off locke, and see more persephone kissing the women of zion
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Old 11-07-03, 03:55 PM
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Never say never again. No matter who says they'll never do another film, it can still happen.

Look at Indiana Jones 4. The third film was supposed to be the last one, and all involved said it would be. By the time it comes out it'll be around 15 years since the third film.

The W Bros. are both still very young. They could make another Matrix film with all new actors if need be.
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Old 11-07-03, 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by jough
Spoiler:

a) Why can Neo control or destroy the machines in the real world?

Because the "real world" is just another computer simulation - like the kid freed himself of his own accord in the Animatrix Neo was so attuned to using his mind to hack computer systems that he was able to intuitively hack the "real world" as well.

b) Why can he see this fire type deal when he's blinded?

He's seeing something that's beyond even the code - he's looking into the very nature, the energy of the patterns inherent in the "earth" simulation.

c) How the hell did he get his conciousness knocked into the Train Station in the beginning without any connection to the Matrix or the machines at all?

Because he's a programme - the connection, being jacked in, etc., is another simulation, another system of control.

So his programme was running in both the matrix world and the desktop, the "real world."
That's unlikely, and not supported by anything within the film. The whole "Matrix within a matrix" concept is dumb, and I am very glad that's not the way they went.

A lot of people thought that Neo's ability to destroy machines in the real world was cheesy, inconsistent, and illogical.

I'm not particularly sure this is so. I think that Neo's powers probably operate within some set of rules, but the movie never found it necessary to make it clear what those rules are.

In any case, it's not internally inconsistent that Neo should be able to control machines within the "real world." There's no reason for him to be able to do what he can do in the Matrix, other than the fact that he is "the One," so there is no reason to suppose that his ability to control computer systems with his mind should necessarily be limited to when he is plugged into the Matrix.
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Old 11-07-03, 04:31 PM
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in fact the oracle says specificly that the powers of the one continue into the world in which they are created(the machine world) all the way to the scorce. if he can manipulate matrix code, why couldn't he follow that code to it's origin and manipulate it there? seems pretty simple to me
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Old 11-07-03, 05:55 PM
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why cant someone just make a 'bootleg' 4th movie like that Batman movie?
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Old 11-07-03, 07:10 PM
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Originally posted by ScandalUMD
That's unlikely, and not supported by anything within the film. The whole "Matrix within a matrix" concept is dumb, and I am very glad that's not the way they went.
I'm not sure which film you saw, becase that *is* the way they went. They hinted at it in the second film (by telling Neo he was a programme) and then they showed him controlling the machines in the "real world" which MUST be another simulation, since computer programmes cannot walk about in the real world, I don't care how well programmed they are.

Now, it could be argued that Neo's body is cybernetic, but we watched him bleed, and there's nothing to support *that* in the film.

I guess I just thought that the "matrix in a matrix" revelation was obvious.
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Old 11-07-03, 08:13 PM
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Originally posted by jough
I'm not sure which film you saw, becase that *is* the way they went. They hinted at it in the second film (by telling Neo he was a programme) and then they showed him controlling the machines in the "real world" which MUST be another simulation
When did they ever tell Neo he is a program? By the way, I am very thankful for my spelling lessons as a child, some words are plain tough.

Last edited by Binger; 11-07-03 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 11-07-03, 08:30 PM
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very good movie, the best ever in terms of all 3 combined. A few things I disliked are:

shouldve had more fight scenes in the Matrix and less in Zion (the Matrix is simply sexier)
shouldve had more form the Merovingian and Persephone (Merv was vastly underused in my estimation)
Wanted to see the twins (not Persephone's but the white dreadlocked twins from Reloaded)

Things I loved:
The evolution of Smith (since he was my favorite character since the first, I loved seeing him get so powerful as he stole the show, AGAIN)
The last fight scene (simply beautiful)
The war (although too long, it was good)
No new confusing philosophies (Other than addressing a few plots from Reloaded, the ending and the movie as a whole was interpretated without as much ambiguity as the second)

Definitely worth seeing and it one that grows on ya.

Last edited by gmal2003; 11-07-03 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 11-07-03, 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by Binger
When did they ever tell Neo he is a program? By the way, I am very thankful for my spelling lessons as a child, some words are plain tough.
He's basing his conclusions on the writings of Baudrillard.

Originally posted by jough
It's not exactly a matrix in a matrix, but it's obvious that Zion, the "real world" is also a computer system, and all of the "people" in it are programmes.

Of course, we knew already that Neo was a programme from the Architect's explanation in Reloaded, so it's not that much of a stretch to find that everyone and everything is a simulation.

Baudrillard, the French social philosopher whose theories inspired all three films wrote about the possibility of simulacra without a basal precedent - in other words, the "real world" could be a simulation of something to which there is no actual antecedent. The simulation does NOT have to follow an actual event - the simulation can arise purely out of the need for simulation. It's self-fulfilling.

So when Trinity died she was being deleted because she had lived her function. Her only purpose was to get Neo to the Machine Source where he could make a Faustian bargain with the machines: he will restore the desired order, put the 1s and 0s back in balance in exchange for the current simulation to continue running.

After Neo sacrificed himself to Smith (more of a Satan figure in this film than last - at the end, he was everyone in the Matrix, the devil in our own hearts) he was no longer needed either, nor was there a necessary "anomaly" - the 6th Neo will be the last Neo. It was the Oracle's choice, not Neo's. It was her gamble, and it paid off.

There may be human bodies somewhere, and they may or may not be used for power. The people only "power" the machine world like your computer is "Powered by Windows XP".

Notice the Architect's words at the end: all will be freed who WANT to be. Those who are aware of their state of reality. Those who attain a satori and have achieved enlightenment.
The reasoning does work quite well but is open to debate since the brothers left it for the audience to draw their own conclusions (notice how they refuse to explain the films and have filled them with numerous references in various forms of different religions and philosophies). I think a lotof us have come close to the "correct" answer (that being what the story in these films means to the brothers themselves) but I doubt any of us are 100% right.

Last edited by RocShemp; 11-07-03 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 11-07-03, 08:44 PM
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Originally posted by ScandalUMD
That's unlikely, and not supported by anything within the film. The whole "Matrix within a matrix" concept is dumb, and I am very glad that's not the way they went.
There's not enough information to conclude one way or the other whether it was a Matrix-in-a-Matrix. Each viewer can reach their own conclusion.

But most importantly, with the way they chose to resolve the story, it's an irrelevant debate...
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Old 11-07-03, 09:11 PM
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Originally posted by jough
I'm not sure which film you saw, becase that *is* the way they went. They hinted at it in the second film (by telling Neo he was a programme) and then they showed him controlling the machines in the "real world" which MUST be another simulation, since computer programmes cannot walk about in the real world, I don't care how well programmed they are.

Now, it could be argued that Neo's body is cybernetic, but we watched him bleed, and there's nothing to support *that* in the film.

I guess I just thought that the "matrix in a matrix" revelation was obvious.
If you watch the second film, there are several ideas of what's going on that aren't necessarily reconcilable.

The first is esposed by the Oracle. She says that we are characterized by our choices, and that we must strive to understand them.

The second comes from Smith. He says that purpose is the motivating factor, and that we're necessarily driven by the need to fulfill whatever our purpose is.

The third comes from the Merovingian. He says that we're helplessly swept along by external causes.

Any one of these theories could, on its own, get Neo to the door. To assume that he is a program is to accept Smith's view of the world uncritically, without regard to the other possibilities.

One could just as easily accept the Merovingian's notion in full; Neo ends up where he ends up because the Oracle and the Keymaker told him exactly where he should go and what he should do.

In any case, the notion that Neo is a program is undermined by the choice he makes at the end of Reloaded. If he were a program, designed for the specific purpose of returning to the source, he would not have made the choice to return to the Matrix to rescue Trinity.

This is substantially supported by the Architect commenting on observing the biological functions that mark the onset of an emotion.

The argument that Neo is a program is also substantially undermined by the Architect's comment about Neo's choice, specifically that hope is both the source of the greatest human triumph, and the source of humanity's greatest failure. If Neo is a program, that would be a pretty odd observation for the Architect to make.
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Old 11-07-03, 09:16 PM
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Wow...reading through most of these posts I'm kind of shocked at all the debate that's going on over a pretty thin, shallow and very disappointing film. But the movie is so intentionally vague that I'm not surprised the Wachowskis have been able to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. Dazzle with some well-made special effects, throw in some random non-sensical philosophy from notes left over from your college World Religions class, add a touch of David Lynch - and voila - a money making movie machine.

The Matrix was very interesting and fun.

The Matrix Reloaded was average, but had some interesting ideas.

The Matrix Revolutions is a cop-out. Probably the second worst big-budget film of 2003. Fortunately, "The Hulk" came out this year, so Matrix Revolutions doesn't need to worry about sweeping the Razzies next year.
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Old 11-07-03, 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by jim_cook87
There's not enough information to conclude one way or the other whether it was a Matrix-in-a-Matrix. Each viewer can reach their own conclusion.

But most importantly, with the way they chose to resolve the story, it's an irrelevant debate...
Well, given that the film didn't actually suggest in any way that the real world is supposed to be a Matrix-in-a-Matrix, I would describe such a conclusion as an unsupported and wholly external to the films.

One could also argue that the Matrix is set in the same world as "The Wizard of Oz." The machines are the descendants of the Tin Woodman, and the Machine City is built onto the Emerald City.

Such an analysis would be similarly external, but slightly better supported by the film than the "Matrix-in-a-Matrix" theory.
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Old 11-07-03, 09:51 PM
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Originally posted by ScandalUMD
Well, given that the film didn't actually suggest in any way that the real world is supposed to be a Matrix-in-a-Matrix, I would describe such a conclusion as an unsupported and wholly external to the films.
The Matrix-in-a-Matrix theory stems entirely from attempting to explain how Neo can effect the machines in the real world. The films offer no explanation, they merely ask you to accept that his abilities have crossed into that world, one can draw many conclusions that fit the situation and cannot be refuted in any way other than "I don't like that theory." Present any explanation for how Neo could affect machines in the real world and I can retort that your conclusion is "unsupported and wholly external to the films."

But, again, the way the Wachowski brothers structured the movies it's irrelevant to understanding the trilogy...
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Old 11-07-03, 09:51 PM
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Originally posted by ScandalUMD
In any case, the notion that Neo is a program is undermined by the choice he makes at the end of Reloaded. If he were a program, designed for the specific purpose of returning to the source, he would not have made the choice to return to the Matrix to rescue Trinity.

This is substantially supported by the Architect commenting on observing the biological functions that mark the onset of an emotion.
Not necessarily, because like the Indian man in the train station said, computer programs do understand the definition of love and emotion. It is a word with an implied meaning. He had an "emotion" to go to the train station and save his daughter from being deleted. Although he was a computer program himself, he had a connection (i.e. an unconditional bond of love) with another computer program.
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Old 11-07-03, 10:04 PM
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Dazzle with some well-made special effects, throw in some random non-sensical philosophy from notes left over from your college World Religions class, add a touch of David Lynch - and voila - a money making movie machine.
Hardly anyone is talking about the special effects, philosophy, or David Lynch (?).

But the movie is so intentionally vague that I'm not surprised the Wachowskis have been able to pull the wool over everyone's eyes.
Is that what they were trying to do? Or were they trying to spark thoughts like those on display in this thread?
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Old 11-07-03, 10:23 PM
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Originally posted by jim_cook87
The Matrix-in-a-Matrix theory stems entirely from attempting to explain how Neo can effect the machines in the real world. The films offer no explanation, they merely ask you to accept that his abilities have crossed into that world, one can draw many conclusions that fit the situation and cannot be refuted in any way other than "I don't like that theory." Present any explanation for how Neo could affect machines in the real world and I can retort that your conclusion is "unsupported and wholly external to the films."

But, again, the way the Wachowski brothers structured the movies it's irrelevant to understanding the trilogy...
It's still an external and unsupported framework.

Why does he have special powers in the Matrix? Because he's the One. Why should his special powers to control machines with his mind be limited to the Matrix?
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Old 11-07-03, 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by Ibility
Not necessarily, because like the Indian man in the train station said, computer programs do understand the definition of love and emotion. It is a word with an implied meaning. He had an "emotion" to go to the train station and save his daughter from being deleted. Although he was a computer program himself, he had a connection (i.e. an unconditional bond of love) with another computer program.
He still doesn't have biological processes. Not to mention the numerous references by programs to the fact that Neo is "only human," and "just a man."

If Neo were a program, the Merovingian would presumably be aware of this.

And, given that the argument that Neo is a program is based on what the Architect says, and the Architect explicitly references the fact that Neo is human, I don't see how the notion of Neo being a program is in any way supported or justified.
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Old 11-08-03, 02:00 AM
  #294  
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i thought it was clear as to why Neo could destroy machines in the real world: the Oracle said he and the machines are both descended from the Source, so Neo is like a distant cousin to the sentinels. hence, he understands them, and can control them to an extent.

now, i have some big unanswered questions from Reloaded that were never really answered:

1. why did Seraph glow gold in Reloaded? everyone else in the trilogy glows green.

2. having just watched Reloaded, i'm sure the albino Twins survived.

3. was there any point to the Merovingian and Persephone at all? i thought they were great, but they served no purpose really. and why did Persephone kiss everyone?

4. i guess the red candy from the oracle meant nothing.

5. Locke said most of the hover ships were being kept in Zion for defense, but apparently they were all gone by the beginning of Revolutions. what happened to them all between 2 & 3?

more to come.

any helpful answers or responses are appreciated.

Last edited by TCG; 11-08-03 at 02:31 AM.
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Old 11-08-03, 02:22 AM
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Originally posted by TCG
2. having just watched Reloaded, i'm sure the albino Twins survived.
So? That doesn't mean they necessarily have to appear in Revolutions. You're already complaining that the Merovingian and Persephone were included even though they served no real purpose :P

3. was there any point to the Merovingian and Persephone at all? i thought they were great, but they served no purpose really. and why did Persephone kiss everyone?
I'm sure the point of the first 20 minutes of the film could have been made more efficiently, without involving the Merovingian. However, the point of his inclusion was to provide a reason to have Neo trapped in the train station - where he finds out that programs are capable of love (a motivating factor in the final battle) - and then a way to get him out again.

Persephone was included so that she could tell Merovingian that Trinity really does care enough about Neo that she'd be willing to kill every one of them. That and to show off her cleavage. I have issues with the fact that she's still with the Merovingian even though Reloaded made it clear that he's an adulterer and she really doesn't like him (but then again, if she went elsewhere she'd probably be deleted...)
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Old 11-08-03, 02:25 AM
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Originally posted by ScandalUMD
If you watch the second film, there are several ideas of what's going on that aren't necessarily reconcilable.

The first is esposed by the Oracle. She says that we are characterized by our choices, and that we must strive to understand them.

The second comes from Smith. He says that purpose is the motivating factor, and that we're necessarily driven by the need to fulfill whatever our purpose is.

The third comes from the Merovingian. He says that we're helplessly swept along by external causes.

very nice, and concise.
i was willing to give the brothers the benefit of the doubt elements like this were going to contribute to the purpose of serving a 'ripping good yarn", but by the end of the last film, the poor structure, bad narrative choices, visually spectacular but banal rip-offs of dozens of other sources, mated with characters that i still found impossible to care about, really diluted any potency these philosophical pretentions might have had for me.
its absolutely right that the MiaM concept becomes totally irrelevant because, ultimately, nothing really matters anyway.
whether it is or it isn't, the end effect is still the same.
its nice that the everybody thinks that now the pod people of humanity at least have a choice, but for all the yabbering about it in the previous film, the implications of that are beyond the scope of a film that shows it ultimately cares more about riffing Aliens, Sttar wars, Stargate and ST;TMP, with a much higher budget and more proficent cgi , but with mostly secondary and background characters., than dealing with the repercusions of the narrative choices it made earlier.
in other words, the resolution is remarkably shallow for such a long-winded set-up.

Last edited by ckolchak; 11-08-03 at 02:35 AM.
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Old 11-08-03, 02:30 AM
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Originally posted by Philip Reuben
So? That doesn't mean they necessarily have to appear in Revolutions. You're already complaining that the Merovingian and Persephone were included even though they served no real purpose :P
well, why would they be allowed to live, and then never shown again?

they were just as cool as Merv and Persephone.

and you make a good point about the trainstation/limbo scenes. but i would have liked to see more of the cool baddies.
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Old 11-08-03, 03:19 AM
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Originally posted by Philip Reuben


I'm sure the point of the first 20 minutes of the film could have been made more efficiently, without involving the Merovingian. However, the point of his inclusion was to provide a reason to have Neo trapped in the train station - where he finds out that programs are capable of love (a motivating factor in the final battle) - and then a way to get him out again.

Persephone was included so that she could tell Merovingian that Trinity really does care enough about Neo that she'd be willing to kill every one of them. That and to show off her cleavage. I have issues with the fact that she's still with the Merovingian even though Reloaded made it clear that he's an adulterer and she really doesn't like him (but then again, if she went elsewhere she'd probably be deleted...)
I suspect that there's a deleted scene, or an unfilmed scene in the screenplay, where Smith comes for the Merovingian and Persephone.

If there's not, there should have been. I was waiting for it the whole movie. If the Architect and the Oracle are yin and yang forces, then the Merovingian analogizes similarly to the Agents.

My biggest annoyance with Revolutions is that they left that loose end hanging.
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Old 11-08-03, 03:22 AM
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Originally posted by ckolchak
very nice, and concise.
i was willing to give the brothers the benefit of the doubt elements like this were going to contribute to the purpose of serving a 'ripping good yarn", but by the end of the last film, the poor structure, bad narrative choices, visually spectacular but banal rip-offs of dozens of other sources, mated with characters that i still found impossible to care about, really diluted any potency these philosophical pretentions might have had for me.
its absolutely right that the MiaM concept becomes totally irrelevant because, ultimately, nothing really matters anyway.
whether it is or it isn't, the end effect is still the same.
its nice that the everybody thinks that now the pod people of humanity at least have a choice, but for all the yabbering about it in the previous film, the implications of that are beyond the scope of a film that shows it ultimately cares more about riffing Aliens, Sttar wars, Stargate and ST;TMP, with a much higher budget and more proficent cgi , but with mostly secondary and background characters., than dealing with the repercusions of the narrative choices it made earlier.
in other words, the resolution is remarkably shallow for such a long-winded set-up.

Actually, I think all the people in the Matrix must have died. Smith seems to have consumed everybody. There was nobody but Smith in the Matrix during the final battle, and the city was empty in the last scene, after he was destroyed.

I'd suppose that the Machines would have to start growing a fresh crop.
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Old 11-08-03, 03:37 AM
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Originally posted by jim_cook87
The Matrix-in-a-Matrix theory stems entirely from attempting to explain how Neo can effect the machines in the real world. The films offer no explanation, they merely ask you to accept that his abilities have crossed into that world, one can draw many conclusions that fit the situation and cannot be refuted in any way other than "I don't like that theory." Present any explanation for how Neo could affect machines in the real world and I can retort that your conclusion is "unsupported and wholly external to the films."

But, again, the way the Wachowski brothers structured the movies it's irrelevant to understanding the trilogy...
How about "Because he's the One." There's nothing external about that. Why shouldn't he be able to blow up the machines?

The film doesn't need to offer any explanation other than that he's the One.

The machines are part of the same system as the Matrix, and he can control the Matrix. His power apparently just isn't limited to when he's inside the Matrix.

This is actually supported by the film, because after he's blinded, he can see Smith in Bane, and he can see the Machines, but he apparently can't see anything else. So they just fall within the scope of his power to manipulate the computer systems associated with the Matrix.
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