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Star Wars? Gimme a Break!

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Star Wars? Gimme a Break!

Old 04-13-03, 05:20 PM
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Star Wars? Gimme a Break!

(This post does contain spoliers, so if you've never seen Star Wars... and how many people can claim that?... do not read any further.)


Does anyone really believe that George Lucas sat down and wrote a 10-episode epoch when he wrote the first draft of Star Wars? If you go back and look at the series as a whole, no way it all adds up into one story:

1) In Star Wars, there is no way Darth Vader is supposed to be foreshadowed as Luke's father. Ben Kenobi clearly states that Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker; I refuse to buy into that whole "from a different point of view" scene -- hey, Obi Wan clearly states that Vader murdered Luke's father, without an ounce of qualification in his voice.

2) No way that Lucas meant for Leia to be Luke's sister. Gimme a break -- "somehow, I've always known" -- yeah, right. She gives him a couple of nice kisses, including one prolongued smoocher in Empire Strikes Back. Why write that scene if you have a book that says Leia and Luke are brother and sister? In hindsight, isn't that whole thing kind of icky?

3) In the original Star Wars trilogy, Vader frequently bumps into R2D2 and C3P0 and does not recognize them. Heck, he built C3P0, and he has a soft spot for R2 as well. (Check out AOTC) And we're supposed to believe that he doesn't have a single memory of them twenty years or so later? Nah...

I'm right, aren't I?

Last edited by NCMojo; 04-13-03 at 05:43 PM.
Old 04-13-03, 05:31 PM
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Um, yeah, you just posted this in your other thread.
Old 04-13-03, 05:34 PM
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And as I said in the other thread, obi wan probably didn't want luke to know that vader is his father for what ever reason, which hopefully will be discussed in episode 3
Old 04-13-03, 05:44 PM
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Originally posted by caiman
Um, yeah, you just posted this in your other thread.
Yeah, and I said at the time... it was sorta outside of the thread topic, so I would make it a second post.
Old 04-13-03, 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by ncmojo
Yeah, and I said at the time... it was sorta outside of the thread topic, so I would make it a second post.
Ok, fair enough. Just don't expect to get many positive responses to a Star Wars bashing thread. Any Star Wars/Lucas gripes you could possibly think of have all been covered in the past at great length.
Old 04-13-03, 05:51 PM
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Actually, I've read a 9 part episode when episode I came out.
Old 04-13-03, 06:04 PM
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It was originally only going to be 9 parts.. not 10

But I agree with you on a lot of terms.

Originally lucas stated that R2 and C3PO were the only characters that were going to be in all the series. Seems odd now since Obi has been in all of them.

Looking at just the prequels you can see that their is a lacking of connection in the series so far. I mean if you had it all planned out then you would have made Episode I -III follow some sort of guideline to help lead into the next.

Now we are left with a lot of the clone war not covered and a large gap, not to mention a lot of mysteries still left to be uncovered in just one movie. Not to mention actually have it stand alone as a single movie.

If you ask me, they started Episode I way to early in Skywalkers life. You could tell that lucas is trying to do a mirror effect between Anakin and Luke in trying to tell how there story is similiar and how anakin choose the dark path while Luke choose the "good" path. I thought that if they started anakin off older, roughly the same age as Luke in ANH, then it would have benefited filling in the gap of time that takes place.

Now lets talk about the Original trilogy. It's pretty clear that a lot of idea's were pulled out of nowhere in lucas mind and he choose to do many other things after second guessing. the kiss between luke and leia is the key there. It seemed that Lucas didn't know which one Leia would end up with. But over all lucas did have an over all idea that he wanted it to be a 9 part series. I don't see why you wouldn't buy that just because he didn't have all the details on what exactly was going to happen within all that time and a lot of rewrites happened.

Overall, did he want a 9 part story, YES. but did he have it all set in stone? Nope. Hell Lucas doesn't even have the films he has done set in stone. He is one that constantly revamps them and retools them, because thats the kind of person he is.
Old 04-13-03, 06:15 PM
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Re: Star Wars? Gimme a Break!

Originally posted by ncmojo
1) In Star Wars, there is no way Darth Vader is supposed to be foreshadowed as Luke's father. Ben Kenobi clearly states that Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker; I refuse to buy into that whole "from a different point of view" scene -- hey, Obi Wan clearly states that Vader murdered Luke's father, without an ounce of qualification in his voice.
Actually, it is foreshadowed in the conversation between Owen and Beru at the dinner table. "He has a lot of his father in him."/"That's what I'm afraid of."

And Obi-Wan lied to Luke because he was afraid he wouldn't be able to handle the truth and turn to the darkside. He wouldn't have been told the truth until he was properly trained as a Jedi Knight.


2) No way that Lucas meant for Leia to be Luke's sister. Gimme a break -- "somehow, I've always known" -- yeah, right. She gives him a couple of nice kisses, including one prolongued smoocher in Empire Strikes Back. Why write that scene if you have a book that says Leia and Luke are brother and sister? In hindsight, isn't that whole thing kind of icky?
Yeah, it is icky. And Luke was supposed to have a sister, at least a the time ESB was being made. However, once Lucas collapsed the storyline down from nine parts to six, he resolved everything in ROTJ and make Leia Luke's sister out of convenience.
3) In the original Star Wars trilogy, Vader frequently bumps into R2D2 and C3P0 and does not recognize them. Heck, he built C3P0, and he has a soft spot for R2 as well. (Check out AOTC) And we're supposed to believe that he doesn't have a single memory of them twenty years or so later? Nah...
That might present a plot hole, but it doesn't seem like a great one. There are presumably thousands of R2 units running around, so there's no reason he should recognize one. Say you owned a car twenty years ago and sold it. Today you see the someone driving the car down the highway. You might think "Hey, I used to have a car like that!" if anything at all. And you aren't going to try to start up a conversation with it.

The C-3PO thing I am a bit dubious about, but again, what is Vader supposed to do? Walk up and give him a hug? He changed his name and cut off all ties from his past once he became a Sith.

Just because Lucas didn't write all nine scripts twenty-five years ago and seal them up in a vault doesn't mean he didn't have a general idea for the direction he wanted to take the series. At the time he made Star Wars (ANH), he wasn't even sure if he would get to make any more movies set in that universe, so he made it reasonably standalone.

I've read the early drafts of Star Wars, and many things changed from draft-to-draft. The original draft of Star Wars bears little resemblence to the one that was eventually made. It's not unreasonalbe to assume that he's added a few things and taken a few things out over the years.
Old 04-13-03, 06:27 PM
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I agree with the theory in the first post. It's painfully obvious that Lucas is making it up as he goes along. There's nothing wrong with that, he should just admit it.
Old 04-13-03, 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by Jackskeleton
It was originally only going to be 9 parts.. not 10

But I agree with you on a lot of terms.

Originally lucas stated that R2 and C3PO were the only characters that were going to be in all the series. Seems odd now since Obi has been in all of them.

Looking at just the prequels you can see that their is a lacking of connection in the series so far. I mean if you had it all planned out then you would have made Episode I -III follow some sort of guideline to help lead into the next.

Now we are left with a lot of the clone war not covered and a large gap, not to mention a lot of mysteries still left to be uncovered in just one movie. Not to mention actually have it stand alone as a single movie.

If you ask me, they started Episode I way to early in Skywalkers life. You could tell that lucas is trying to do a mirror effect between Anakin and Luke in trying to tell how there story is similiar and how anakin choose the dark path while Luke choose the "good" path. I thought that if they started anakin off older, roughly the same age as Luke in ANH, then it would have benefited filling in the gap of time that takes place.

Now lets talk about the Original trilogy. It's pretty clear that a lot of idea's were pulled out of nowhere in lucas mind and he choose to do many other things after second guessing. the kiss between luke and leia is the key there. It seemed that Lucas didn't know which one Leia would end up with. But over all lucas did have an over all idea that he wanted it to be a 9 part series. I don't see why you wouldn't buy that just because he didn't have all the details on what exactly was going to happen within all that time and a lot of rewrites happened.

Overall, did he want a 9 part story, YES. but did he have it all set in stone? Nope. Hell Lucas doesn't even have the films he has done set in stone. He is one that constantly revamps them and retools them, because thats the kind of person he is.
I agree on what you are saying about starting it too early. Actually I read a lot of people's opinions and it seems most would have liked the films(1,2,3) to take place during a shorter time span than the time gaps that we now have. But I will hold off judgement about Anakin as a child until I see GL's finished episode 3. Perhaps we are missing something, who knows.

Another interesting thought here is the Leia/Han/Luke triangle. I have read interviews in which it was said that GL didn't want to have to use Leia as Luke's brother. She was just to remain the princess that came between Luke and Han. The "Other" as first written and the line given to Yoda was another person who was Luke's sister, not Leia. This yet to be identified sister was being trained under one more elderly Jedi Master somewhere else hidden in the galaxy,and only Yoda new . Luke would eventually fall to the darkside,in what would be part 6, and Vader and his son would either destroy or seperate from palpatine and take over. Remember The Vader line, "Our combined strength can bring order to the galaxy". Lucas is said to have left all this in until the he could decide what he wanted to. Eventually,during the filming of ESB, he gave up hopes about 7-9 and quickly changed Leia into the sister role b/c she fit into it the best. He did not delete the kissing scene though. Although it was not set in any stone a lot of fans thought the sister would be the last hope and "the other" that would go after Vader and Luke. Keep in mind no where in the first original films does Lucas come out and say there is rule of two sith. So is any of this true? Who knows, but its fun to speculate!

Last edited by DarthMaul420; 04-13-03 at 06:44 PM.
Old 04-13-03, 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by DarthMaul420
I agree on what you are saying about starting it too early. Actually I read a lot of people's opinions and it seems most would have liked the films(1,2,3) to take place during a shorter time span than the time gaps that we now have. But I will hold off judgement about Anakin as a child until I see GL's finished episode 3. Perhaps we are missing something, who knows.

Another interesting thought here is the Leia/Han/Luke triangle. I have read interviews in which it was said that GL didn't want to have to use Leia as Luke's brother. She was just to remain the princess that came between Luke and Han. The "Other" as first written and the line given to Yoda was another person who was Luke's sister, not Leia. This yet to be identified sister was being trained under one more elderly Jedi Master somewhere else hidden in the galaxy,and only Yoda new . Luke would eventually fall to the darkside,in what would be part 6, and Vader and his son would either destroy or seperate from palpatine and take over. Remember The Vader line, "Our combined strength can bring order to the galaxy". Lucas is said to have left all this in until the he could decide what he wanted to. Eventually,during the filming of ESB, he gave up hopes about 7-9 and quickly changed Leia into the sister role b/c she fit into it the best. He did not delete the kissing scene though. Although it was not set in any stone a lot of fans thought the sister would be the last hope and "the other" that would go after Vader and Luke. Keep in mind no where in the first original films does Lucas come out and say there is rule of two sith. So is any of this true? Who knows, but its fun to speculate!
Damn, that sounds more interesting than what came about (not that I don't enjoy ROTJ).

I think Lucas wrote down a bunch of stuff, but when he wrote up Ep. IV, he took most of the good stuff out of his "9 Episode Story" and made Star Wars as one film with no hopes of a sequel.

And with each new Episode he was making, there was less to work with, thus causing Lucas to go way off the map in terms of the numerous continuity problems many people have mentioned in the many SW threads here.

I think he should have went with doing Ep 4-9.
Old 04-13-03, 07:08 PM
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Re: Re: Star Wars? Gimme a Break!

Originally posted by Josh-da-man
Actually, it is foreshadowed in the conversation between Owen and Beru at the dinner table. "He has a lot of his father in him."/"That's what I'm afraid of."

And Obi-Wan lied to Luke because he was afraid he wouldn't be able to handle the truth and turn to the darkside. He wouldn't have been told the truth until he was properly trained as a Jedi Knight.
Another spin: Owen's comment could have been read as he didn't want Luke to end up like his father: joining Obi Wan then getting murdered at the hands of Vader.

And this talk of Lucas not intending Leia to be Luke's sister does make sense, but did Lucas ever intend to make her a Jedi regardless?

Vader comments on how she resisted the mind probe, which sounds like a hint that she has the force. Was she supposed to be another Jedi? Or was she the other that Yoda referred to, but wasn't really a blood relation to Luke?
Old 04-13-03, 07:11 PM
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Re: Star Wars? Gimme a Break!

Originally posted by ncmojo

3) In the original Star Wars trilogy, Vader frequently bumps into R2D2 and C3P0 and does not recognize them. Heck, he built C3P0, and he has a soft spot for R2 as well. (Check out AOTC) And we're supposed to believe that he doesn't have a single memory of them twenty years or so later? Nah...

I'm right, aren't I?
To be far, Vader briefly sees C-3PO in Empire when Lando sells out Han and co.
Old 04-13-03, 07:22 PM
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Re: Re: Star Wars? Gimme a Break!

Originally posted by JoeyOhhhh
To be far, Vader briefly sees C-3PO in Empire when Lando sells out Han and co.
True and to compare this to a real life scenerio, I run into people I didn't like from high school all the time. I don't say anything to them. Maybe Darth Vader has that kind of relationship with the droids.
Old 04-13-03, 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by Groucho
I agree with the theory in the first post. It's painfully obvious that Lucas is making it up as he goes along. There's nothing wrong with that, he should just admit it.
That's pretty much my view, but he'll never admit it. He and his apologists are too wedded to this idea of him as some sort of Cinematic version of Balzac, painting a giant canvas.
Old 04-13-03, 07:38 PM
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Originally posted by JoeyOhhhh
Damn, that sounds more interesting than what came about (not that I don't enjoy ROTJ).

I think Lucas wrote down a bunch of stuff, but when he wrote up Ep. IV, he took most of the good stuff out of his "9 Episode Story" and made Star Wars as one film with no hopes of a sequel.

And with each new Episode he was making, there was less to work with, thus causing Lucas to go way off the map in terms of the numerous continuity problems many people have mentioned in the many SW threads here.

I think he should have went with doing Ep 4-9.

Yep I agree. Very interesting. I believe this info was going around TheForce.net for a long time.
Old 04-13-03, 07:43 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Star Wars? Gimme a Break!

Originally posted by JoeyOhhhh
Another spin: Owen's comment could have been read as he didn't want Luke to end up like his father: joining Obi Wan then getting murdered at the hands of Vader.

And this talk of Lucas not intending Leia to be Luke's sister does make sense, but did Lucas ever intend to make her a Jedi regardless?

Vader comments on how she resisted the mind probe, which sounds like a hint that she has the force. Was she supposed to be another Jedi? Or was she the other that Yoda referred to, but wasn't really a blood relation to Luke?
Very good points.

Another thing I forgot was these Vader lines in ANH. "the force is strong with this one". and "Obi-wan is here, and the force is with him." Yet, he made no mention of Leia having the force. So that could go with that theory that she was not going to be, "the other" Yoda would speak about.

Although not a hole b/c you can work around it, we must also remember Yoda had to tell Obi-wan, "no there is another". Somehow Ben knew by ROTJ that Leia was that other. Did Yoda tell him off screen? I guess that is what Lucas would argue that is what all planned.
Old 04-13-03, 08:12 PM
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JoeyOhhhh,

If you really want to throw out some far fetched ideas, , how about this rumor that has been around about Lucas' original intent for the story.

Have you ever heard the rumor that Lucas recorded Darth saying " No! Obi-Wan is your father." Lucas has even been said to have recorded this line for no other reason than to throw people in the movie's development off of the twist ending. Is it possible though that Obi Wan was going to be Luke's father? Think about it. Owen to Luke

"He knew my father?" --- Luke
"I told you to forget it" --- Owen

"He's just some crazy old wizard" --- Owen

"He's not much of a farmer Owen, he's too much like his father." ---- Beru
"Thats what I'm afraid of" - Owen

And this statment "He died about the same time as your father."

All this could mean Obi-Wan went into dormat and many considered him dead even if they knew he wasn't. Perhaps thats why UNCLE owen, funny Lucas made Owen Luke's uncle and possibly at the time Obi-Wans brother, considers him dead. Obi-Wan on the other hand, might give Luke away to Owen for the fear the Vader may return after him. Owen might have seen this as Ben giving him the taskof looking after his son while he went about his own "Idealistic crusades". It would also be another view on the look Ben gives Luke when he asks "what happened to my father?" Obviously something horrible happened and Ben told the story from his point of view.

Now the question remains, if Obi-Wan was announced as Luke's father in ESB, would it still be as great a scene? Depends on how it would have been done. Think about this setup. Obi Wan knows Luke left Dagobah way to early and fears what will happen, yoda already knows. he will fail. Vader tells luke about ben being his father .... and this unleashes the major signs of the dark side of the force in Luke. By ROTJ he would be just as twisted as Vader!

Now keeping in mind that much of this is left up to rumors and numerous interpretation, do we have any proof that Mr. Lucas needed to change the script and make someone else Luke's father? I think we do. The main star and biggest name at the time of the first film was Alec Guinness. He was so detested by the working conditions of the first film that he begged to be killed off somewhere at the end of the first film. No more Obi-Wan = whatever Lucas had in mind for ESB had to be changed. Obviously this included the twist. Simple solution, make Vader the father. It worked great. He got Alec to do a few one day shoots just for continuity sake in both the sequels. To the day he died Alec G. has been said to be very bitter towards Star Wars and it's compulsive fans.

Now, most of the above is probably not true, but surely interesting speculation! I do think it is a safe bet that Lucas changed alot during filming though.


Edit* Here is an excerpt from a bio on Alec Guinness that I just found on the web.

"Alec Guinness reportedly hated working on Star Wars (1977) so much. Guinness claims that Obi-Wan's death was his idea as a means to limit his involvement in the film. Guinness also claims to throw away all Star Wars related fan mail without even opening it. He was one of the last surviving members of a great generation of UK actors, which included Sir Laurence Olivier, Sir John Gielgud and Sir Ralph Richardson."

Last edited by DarthMaul420; 04-13-03 at 08:25 PM.
Old 04-13-03, 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by Jackskeleton

Now we are left with a lot of the clone war not covered and a large gap, not to mention a lot of mysteries still left to be uncovered in just one movie. Not to mention actually have it stand alone as a single movie.

I'm sure the Clone Wars cartoons will cover this.
Old 04-13-03, 08:35 PM
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Vader building Threepio is the equivalent of any of us building our own computer. Sure, we put a lot of work into it, and we're proud of the results, but it's not like it's a member of the family.

20 years from now, if you walk into an office and see a case like the one you used to build your PC, will you notice? Will you care? Will you go over to it and say hello?
Old 04-13-03, 08:39 PM
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Originally posted by DarthMaul420

All this could mean Obi-Wan went into dormat and many considered him dead even if they knew he wasn't. Perhaps thats why UNCLE owen, funny Lucas made Owen Luke's uncle and possibly at the time Obi-Wans brother, considers him dead. Obi-Wan on the other hand, might give Luke away to Owen for the fear the Vader may return after him. Owen might have seen this as Ben giving him the taskof looking after his son while he went about his own "Idealistic crusades". It would also be another view on the look Ben gives Luke when he asks "what happened to my father?" Obviously something horrible happened and Ben told the story from his point of view.
If Luke was given to the Lars family to raise when he was an infant, why not just tell Lars and Beru to raise him as their own son? Leia refers to Bail Organa as her father.
Old 04-13-03, 08:50 PM
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Originally posted by Jason
If Luke was given to the Lars family to raise when he was an infant, why not just tell Lars and Beru to raise him as their own son? Leia refers to Bail Organa as her father.
Owen and Beru actually were his aunt and uncle. Bail was no relation, I'd assume that's why...
Old 04-13-03, 08:59 PM
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Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
That's pretty much my view, but he'll never admit it. He and his apologists are too wedded to this idea of him as some sort of Cinematic version of Balzac, painting a giant canvas.
First of all, this is the most civilized Star Wars/Lucas post I have read on here in a loooooooooong time! I agree with you and Groucho. Now, I like Star Wars but I am not super-crazy fanboy nuts over it like many people are. It is ok to be that into it or not that into it. The plot holes and "pulled out of thin air points" in the continuing story don't really bother me that much. One of my favorite movies T2 is so full of holes it is hilarious. For this reason alone it is almost wrong to criticize Star Wars for the same types of holes so I won't.
Old 04-13-03, 09:18 PM
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Re: Star Wars? Gimme a Break!

Originally posted by ncmojo
1) In Star Wars, there is no way Darth Vader is supposed to be foreshadowed as Luke's father. Ben Kenobi clearly states that Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker; I refuse to buy into that whole "from a different point of view" scene -- hey, Obi Wan clearly states that Vader murdered Luke's father, without an ounce of qualification in his voice.
But Darth Vader did murder Anakin in a sense. He was taken over completely by the dark side, losing every shred of humanity he previously had.

It's not unlike a father saying that his alcoholic son is 'dead to him.' The son isn't physically dead, but has lost everything.
Old 04-13-03, 09:39 PM
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I'm glad Lucas decided to not do Episodes 7-9. In my opinion, after ESB, he started to run out of ideas. I mean come on, ROTJ was basically a re-hash of ANH and ESB. I also think that the new trilogy isn't that original or creative. I have read some fan ideas that sound much more interesting than what we have gotten thus far.

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