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Star Wars? Gimme a Break!

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Star Wars? Gimme a Break!

Old 04-13-03, 09:58 PM
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Originally posted by jim_cook87
Owen and Beru actually were his aunt and uncle. Bail was no relation, I'd assume that's why...

Exactly, In this alternate take on the films Leia is not related to the Skywalker's. She is really Bail's daughter. Now Owen wants to keep Luke far far away from Obi-Wan for fear of what might happen to him.
Old 04-13-03, 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by DVDGUY1116
The plot holes and "pulled out of thin air points" in the continuing story don't really bother me that much.
I agree. Plot Holes don't bother me as long as Lucas keeps everything "important" in line as he promised to do in Episode 3.
No matter what plot holes people post there is always someone giving an explanation to solve them.

Af far as "pulling ideas of out of thin air"! I agree and I don't care if GL has done this but I think it's neat for everyone to discuss what could have been different in the films if Lucas decided to do something differently.
Old 04-13-03, 10:37 PM
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Not to hijack the thread, but...

(I think this is quasi-related...)

Was anybody else rather disappointed when Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker, Galactic badass, Master of the Dark Side and Lord of the Sith, woulnd up looking like Mr. Carlson from WKRP in Cincinnati?

I know I was.
Old 04-13-03, 10:58 PM
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Now, I've heard that during the Luke/Vader confrontation at the end of ESB, that in one version (foiler, perhaps?) Vader told Luke that Obi-Wan killed his father.

Which, from a certain point of view, could be accurate if the Obi-Wan vs Anakin fight that puts Vader in the big iron lung is accurate.

That's the first I've heard about Luke falling to the dark side in the original plans for Part VI.

The list I've read about the tentative plans at the time ESB was made were as follows:

EP I. Would deal with the origins of the force.
EP II. Adventures of young Jedi Obi-Wan Kenobi.
EP III. Introduction and fall of Anakin Skywalker.
EP IV. The movie we saw.
EP V. Again, the movie we saw.
EP VI. Han was to have died. Luke confronts Vader. Leia is elected Queen of her people, and is left alone. (Shade of Padme being elected queen of Naboo?)
EP VII. Continuing Luke's adventures as a Jedi.
EP VIII. Introduction of Luke's sister.
EP IX. First appearance of the Emporer.

This also fits in with the general theme of the only characters appearing in all nine films would have been the droids.

Somewhere down the line, Lucas decided to collapse VI-IX into the singel ROTJ movie. It seems he had some vague plans to do another trilogy, possibly involving a third generation of charcters, as VII-IX. But then he started claiming that Star Wars was six movies, about the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

If he is indeed using Anakin Skywalker as the focal point of all six films, it would sort of stand reason that he would "gloss" over the clone wars. After all, the OT didn't really focus that much on the Rebellion vs. the Empire, it was more a backdrop for the story of Luke. So it's not surprising that we see the Clone Wars begin in EP II, and we'll like see at least the tail end of the Wars and the foundation of the Empire in EP III.
Old 04-13-03, 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by Josh-da-man

EP VI. Han was to have died.
This is another one of those things that we will probably never know much about. What Lucas wanted and what came out on film? However, like much of the other speculation, han was slated to die in ROTJ. However, Lucas could not kill the character b/c he was worried about upsetting the fans and even if you think about it ,this would not be a very happy ending to the saga when it was decided ROTJ was the last film.

What Did Lucas do? "Supposedly", he decided that Han would let Lando borrow the falcon and that Lando would be the one who died at the end of the film. After all, Lando was the one who betrayed Han and although Lando saw the errors of his ways after ESB, he decided to take the suicide mission as a debt to Han.

There is also proof of this left in the actual film in a scene that Lucas left in b/c it still worked. "You want me to take her? and " "Remember! I got your promise, not a Scratch!".

I think it was a last minute call that Lucas decided to keep everyone alive, but ironically enough Lucas wrote it in that Lando did take off the Falcon's Radar!

However, I think killing Lando would have also worked functionally as well as symbolically and made Han appear as an even stronger character. Throughout the three films Han cares the most about money and his ship. As we move through the films he starts to realise that his friends are more important i.e. returning at the death star run, trusting lando enough to go to Cloud City, and even risking death to go after Luke on Hoth. Also he went from "better her than me" to actually caring the most about Leia through the films.

Wouldn't it be symbolic if Lando did die in the falcon,the very ship he lost to Han, on the way out of the death star? At the end of ROTJ, instead of caring about his ship Han only cares about his friend .... the same could be said for Lando

Then again maybe ROTJ was a quick tie up to end the series. Although I am presenting many alternate looks at what could or was rumored to be made, I still think the first three films came out damn good.

Last edited by DarthMaul420; 04-13-03 at 11:28 PM.
Old 04-13-03, 11:32 PM
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Originally posted by DarthMaul420
I'm sure the Clone Wars cartoons will cover this.
i really don't want to see that.
Old 04-13-03, 11:35 PM
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There's one thing I'm positive about. You all think you know what you're talking about, but none of you do. You're talking out of your backside. Nobody knows Lucas or what he has done, and you can't tell from a movie.
Old 04-13-03, 11:40 PM
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Originally posted by Terrell
There's one thing I'm positive about. You all think you know what you're talking about, but none of you do. You're talking out of your backside. Nobody knows Lucas or what he has done, and you can't tell from a movie.
Thats not true at all, I'm willing to guess Lucas puts on his swimsuit(shudders) and goes for a swim everyday in his Money Bin

Old 04-13-03, 11:41 PM
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1) i'd always heard, from 77- on till the prequels were going into production, that GL had intended for it to be 9 films and very early on, before ESB came out, the droids were said to be the only characters that ran consistently thru the whole saga.
2) using an older anakin would have given much more resonance to the scene where Yoda refuses to train Luke because he "is too old".
we would now see what happens when this process isn't begun early and the stakes would have been raised for Luke.
this, imo, was a major weakness of TPM.
and it was basically done to provide a character for the under 10 set to identify with.
i know some people will argue that point, but to me its pretty blatant.
Lucas was a filmaking vet. he should have known that if you are going to risk a big part in the hands of a child actor, you better have a rock solid reason for doing it.
the only reason that holds water is that he was once again targeting the material primarily at a pre-adolescant demographic ( ewoks, Greedo, fart jokes, etc *).
dramatically, as stated above, an older anakin would have been a much superior choice all around
3) Lucas had stated before ESB came out, that he originally wanted to make a picture about a boy rescuing his sister ( check The Art Of Star Wars copyright '79).
unable to provide a mature resolution to a good love triangle, he instead shoe-horned a favorite old idea, into this story where it no longer belonged.
i've said it before many times- if they had just played it straight, the Emperor would have been able to use something much more powerful to tempt Luke and raise the stakes in their confrontation in ROTJ- his unrequited sexual desire for Leia, and, consequently, his jealousy of Han.
a great shame that this kind of maturity was discarded for the fairly vapid & generic "your friends will die if you don't get angry".

jmo



*btw, ROTJ also began the pussification of Han Solo, where the character was reduced from a swaggering, slightly amoral space cowboy, to a constantly mugging, love-sick high school dweeb.
with the context of ROTJ, greedo shooting first is actually more consistent, as Han has been neutered to a completely ball-less, re-active character.

Last edited by ckolchak; 04-13-03 at 11:46 PM.
Old 04-13-03, 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by ckolchak

*btw, ROTJ also began the "pussification" of Han Solo, where the character was reduced from a swaggering, slightly amoral space cowboy, to a constantly mugging, love-sick high school dweeb.
with the context of ROTJ, greedo shooting first is actually more consistent, as Han has been neutered to a completely ball-less, re-active character.
Listen to George Carlin much?
Old 04-13-03, 11:53 PM
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I think it is quite obvious that Lucas changed his story so many times regarding what he "Intended" that their will never be a way to know what he intended.

Now I was only discussing the OT. Don't even get me started on the new films .........
Old 04-14-03, 12:28 AM
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*btw, ROTJ also began the "pussification" of Han Solo, where the character was reduced from a swaggering, slightly amoral space cowboy, to a constantly mugging, love-sick high school dweeb.
It's called character development.
Old 04-14-03, 12:31 AM
  #38  
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I always wondered about Darth and his relationship with the droids. Shouldn't he have anknowledge them some how in the original trilogy. If I saw my first car, I'd take time to look over it. Maybe he's ashamed of 3P0, I would be.
Old 04-14-03, 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by DVD Giant
Actually, I've read a 9 part episode when episode I came out.
Exactly and so have other fans. I think Lucas had to try to change some things for episodes 1-3 to keep fans surprised (like introducing Jar Jar) because if he followed the exact same ideas he had back in 1976, too many fans would have been angry that they knew everything ahead of time.

I know there are plot holes, and I think that some of them can be explained away in creative ways. Take Darth not recongizing the droids. Forget that the last time Anakin may have seen C-3p0 he was quite tarnished and dark, and he's golden and plolished in much of the original trilogy. Given there are plenty of droids similar in appearance, it's feasable that Darth thought they were just types of those droids, as there are plenty of R2 units in the galaxy as well. But aside from that, when did Darth get a good introduction to the droids in the original trilogy? I don't know if he ever did. There was one scene, I would have to check the movie again to make sure I am remembering it right, where Darth is in the cloud city and he sees the decimated 3po in Chebacca's capable hands and didn't Darth do a bit of a double take there? It's one of those small details you don't notice (such as Obi Wan referring to R2 as a friend when they first "meet" in Episode 4, which could point to that he knew the droid) but after you see episodes 1 and 2, you notice them more, and wonder if Lucas put those small clues in there for later reference.
Old 04-14-03, 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by Terrell
It's called character development.
Is it character development when you go back and alter an earlier film in the trilogy to make that particular character more toddler friendly?
Old 04-14-03, 12:43 AM
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Originally posted by Groucho
Is it character development when you go back and alter an earlier film in the trilogy to make that particular character more toddler friendly?
Re-character Development?
Old 04-14-03, 01:11 AM
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After skimming through the posts here I know I read somewhere that he did plan to make 3 trilogies. Then I remembered it was in the book "George Lucas:The Creative Umpulse" that mentions this. So, just to make sure I pulled out the Definitive LD collection which had came with the book and right there on page 42 it mentions that he had already outlined all 9 episodes of SW.
Old 04-14-03, 04:06 AM
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Originally posted by Fok
I always wondered about Darth and his relationship with the droids. Maybe he's ashamed of 3P0, I would be.
Old 04-14-03, 04:35 AM
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interesting point ncmojo. he might not have written Empire and ROTJ, until after the success of Star Wars. but was there a big smoocher scene in Empire? if there was, it would be even more controversial to think he only wrote in the sister part in ROTJ. but ghost Ben Kenobi already indicated there is another, when he was talking to Yoda, as Luke sped off. and Leia had Jedi powers in Cloud City, when she heard Luke. But hmmm, you're right, it might have been Leia had Jedi powers but he was not exactly his sister in Empire. thanks ncmojo, for making me think.
Old 04-14-03, 05:55 AM
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Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays explains a lot on how the stories were developed. Despite Lucas's claims, they made up Empire and Jedi the same way all sequels are made: A committee brainstormed a bunch of ideas until they had a story then assigned it to a writer to flesh out. It wasn't all planned out ahead of time by Lucas. At one point in Empire, while on Dagobah, Obi Wan introduced Luke to the ghost of his father(!). Darth Vader was NOT originally conceived as Luke's father. That didn't come about until the later brainstorming for Empire. Star Wars was the story he wanted to tell. His screenplay was pretty unwieldy so elements jettisoned were reused for the next 2 films (like primatives fighting the Empire-originally Wookies now Ewoks and a cloud city). The backstory was only a couple pages and that is the inspiration for 1-3. I think after all these years Lucas buys into his own myth but the facts are out there if you look for them. The early drafts of Star Wars are easily obtainable on the 'net and that book I mentioned tells how the others were conceived. It doesn't take away from the achievement of Star Wars, but it does bring it back down to Earth as what it has always been: An individual film with 2 sequels and a latterday expansion on its backstory rather than a fully conceived 6 (9) part epic.

As to the original post, I've already addressed Vader as Dad. There is no "real" kiss between Luke and Leia. Leia kisses him once just to piss Han off. That is hardly an "icky" kind of kiss where there is something between them. And Vader never once meets the droids. A glance down the hall at C3P0 is not a meeting, and I don't recall Vader ever seeing R2-D2.
Old 04-14-03, 06:10 AM
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thanks caligula.
Old 04-14-03, 10:11 AM
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Please tell me where Darth Vader meets R2 and C3PO in the Original Trilogy. It doesn't happen. The closest scene is in ESB, but C3PO is in a bunch of parts...and even if they did, there are bunch of droids runnig around the galaxy.

There are plenty of reasons not to like Star Wars (and especially the prequels) but this is a ridicoulous argument.
Old 04-14-03, 11:21 AM
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I'll just add some things that I too, have read over the years:

-Harrison Ford was the one who wanted to kill Han off, not Lucas
-There's been speculation that the reason Vader thwarts Bobba Fett from shooting Chewie in the carbonite chamber is cuz he DID recognize 3PO and didn't want him accidentally shot.
Old 04-14-03, 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by Jason
Leia refers to Bail Organa as her father.
She was legally adopted.
Old 04-14-03, 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by caligulathegod
There is no "real" kiss between Luke and Leia. Leia kisses him once just to piss Han off. That is hardly an "icky" kind of kiss where there is something between them. And Vader never once meets the droids. A glance down the hall at C3P0 is not a meeting, and I don't recall Vader ever seeing R2-D2.
"Well, I guess you don't know a lot about women, then." And she plants a GREAT BIG ICKY SMOOCHER right on Luke's lips. Gotta be two or three seconds long.

And afterwards, Luke kinda smiles and rolls his tongue around on the inside of his mouth. (shudder)

I don't know about you, but down South if somebody kisses their sister for that length of time, he had better damn well marry her.

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