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Star Wars? Gimme a Break!

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Star Wars? Gimme a Break!

Old 04-14-03, 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by DarthMaul420
Although I am presenting many alternate looks at what could or was rumored to be made, I still think the first three films came out damn good.
The first time - yes.

We shan't discuss the 1997 revisions however.

Never, never.

Old 04-14-03, 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by ncmojo
"Well, I guess you don't know a lot about women, then." And she plants a GREAT BIG ICKY SMOOCHER right on Luke's lips. Gotta be two or three seconds long.

And afterwards, Luke kinda smiles and rolls his tongue around on the inside of his mouth. (shudder)

I don't know about you, but down South if somebody kisses their sister for that length of time, he had better damn well marry her.




Old 04-14-03, 12:33 PM
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I just want to confirm that in my recolection Vader NEVER sees R2-D2 in the original trilogy and he only sees C-3PO when he is in pieces ridding on Chewbacca's back.
Old 04-14-03, 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by ncmojo
"Well, I guess you don't know a lot about women, then." And she plants a GREAT BIG ICKY SMOOCHER right on Luke's lips. Gotta be two or three seconds long.

And afterwards, Luke kinda smiles and rolls his tongue around on the inside of his mouth. (shudder)

I don't know about you, but down South if somebody kisses their sister for that length of time, he had better damn well marry her.
That is STILL not the same as an "Oh, I want you. TAKE ME!" kind of kiss. It was a demonstrative kiss. The real ick factor would be in if there was some chance that he might get to third base or even hit a home run. It's just not the same thing. Not enough to worry about, anyway. The focus of the kiss was still Han even though it was planted on Luke.
Old 04-14-03, 08:07 PM
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Re: Re: Star Wars? Gimme a Break!

Originally posted by Josh-da-man
The C-3PO thing I am a bit dubious about, but again, what is Vader supposed to do? Walk up and give him a hug?
Old 04-14-03, 09:10 PM
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Originally posted by Fok
Maybe he's ashamed of 3P0, I would be.
Having the robot you built with your own two hands turn out to be gay isn't anything to be ashamed of.
Old 04-14-03, 09:28 PM
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Originally posted by Josh-da-man
Having the robot you built with your own two hands turn out to be gay isn't anything to be ashamed of.

"We Don't serve their kind here!"
Old 04-14-03, 09:32 PM
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Originally posted by caligulathegod
That is STILL not the same as an "Oh, I want you. TAKE ME!" kind of kiss. It was a demonstrative kiss. The real ick factor would be in if there was some chance that he might get to third base or even hit a home run. It's just not the same thing. Not enough to worry about, anyway. The focus of the kiss was still Han even though it was planted on Luke.
Two things and please don't get upset as I am just kidding around.

1. Do you have a sister yourself ....
2. Don't you find it ironic you chose to be called caligulathegod?
Old 04-15-03, 12:46 AM
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Originally posted by caligulathegod
That is STILL not the same as an "Oh, I want you. TAKE ME!" kind of kiss. It was a demonstrative kiss. The real ick factor would be in if there was some chance that he might be in for some fisting. It's just not the same thing. Not enough to worry about, anyway. The focus of the kiss was still Han even though it was planted on Luke.

Fixed
Old 04-15-03, 01:08 AM
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Uh oh. Countdown to Rypro reply
Old 04-15-03, 04:59 AM
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Originally posted by DarthMaul420
Two things and please don't get upset as I am just kidding around.

1. Do you have a sister yourself ....
2. Don't you find it ironic you chose to be called caligulathegod?
I dunno, maybe I'm not making myself clear. What you are doing is the equivilent of saying an actor is gay because he kissed another man. For example, the actor who plays Will on Will and Grace is straight. He's married and has children. He has a job where he portrays a gay man and on occasion he might have to kiss another man. Would you go, "Ewwww, he kissed another man, he's GAY!" or would you realize he is an actor and is just portraying a gay man? It's the same thing with Luke and Leia in that scene. She has no interest in Luke. She's trying to make Han jealous. She could have just as easily kissed Lando and made the same point. And that is all she was doing was making a point. Kissing is not the same thing has having sex.
Fathers kiss daughters, mothers kiss sons and there is nothing wrong with that. There is a difference however between affection and incest. Those same kisses become disgusting when in the context of incest and the context of incest requires there to be something more going on than just a kiss. At the very least there has to be some emotion or feeling of lust to turn an innocent affectionate kiss into an incestuous one. As passionate as that kiss might have seemed, it was purely to tease Han and not because Leia was interested in Luke. I still remember when I was a kid and these films were coming out there seemed to be a real love triangle and you wondered who would get Leia, Luke or Han. Now when we watch it, it's pretty obvious that there never was even the semblance of a love triangle. NEVER. It is entirely weighted towards Han and Leia from the very beginning. At absolutely NO MOMENT of the film series is there ever a hint that Leia might end up with Luke. NEVER EVER. While it is a fact that Leia did not become Luke's sister until the writing stages of Return of the Jedi, it is entirely beside the point. Leia and Han were predestined as a couple the instant Luke lured Han into rescuing her by telling him she was beautiful and rich.
So you can either giggle and gag like Beavises and Buttheads when Luke and Leia kiss or you can realize that there was absolutely nothing in that kiss. The whole original argument in the first post is wrong.
Old 04-15-03, 09:08 PM
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Originally posted by caligulathegod
I dunno, maybe I'm not making myself clear. What you are doing is the equivilent of saying an actor is gay because he kissed another man. For example, the actor who plays Will on Will and Grace is straight. He's married and has children. He has a job where he portrays a gay man and on occasion he might have to kiss another man. Would you go, "Ewwww, he kissed another man, he's GAY!" or would you realize he is an actor and is just portraying a gay man? It's the same thing with Luke and Leia in that scene. She has no interest in Luke. She's trying to make Han jealous. She could have just as easily kissed Lando and made the same point. And that is all she was doing was making a point. Kissing is not the same thing has having sex.
Fathers kiss daughters, mothers kiss sons and there is nothing wrong with that. There is a difference however between affection and incest. Those same kisses become disgusting when in the context of incest and the context of incest requires there to be something more going on than just a kiss. At the very least there has to be some emotion or feeling of lust to turn an innocent affectionate kiss into an incestuous one. As passionate as that kiss might have seemed, it was purely to tease Han and not because Leia was interested in Luke. I still remember when I was a kid and these films were coming out there seemed to be a real love triangle and you wondered who would get Leia, Luke or Han. Now when we watch it, it's pretty obvious that there never was even the semblance of a love triangle. NEVER. It is entirely weighted towards Han and Leia from the very beginning. At absolutely NO MOMENT of the film series is there ever a hint that Leia might end up with Luke. NEVER EVER. While it is a fact that Leia did not become Luke's sister until the writing stages of Return of the Jedi, it is entirely beside the point. Leia and Han were predestined as a couple the instant Luke lured Han into rescuing her by telling him she was beautiful and rich.
So you can either giggle and gag like Beavises and Buttheads when Luke and Leia kiss or you can realize that there was absolutely nothing in that kiss. The whole original argument in the first post is wrong.

First of all ... we are not talking about actors, Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher, so throw that comparison out of the window as it doesn't prove much about the characters in the story. No one has accused the ACTORS here of incest. We are talking about the "characters" Luke and Leia. And as you made note in your post, the two "characters" on Will and Grace are in fact, gay!!!

Also,
I was not talking about Star Wars before when you qouted me so calm down.

No. Actually what I was doing is pointing out the IRONY of you talking about people kissing their sister, no matter who is doing it or how its done, either affectionately or passionately, and having a screen name of a person(Caligula) who was said to have had sex with most of his closest relatives, including his own Sister ....

I guess your adrift in the situational irony?


Now that I have explained for you what my post was pertaining to, and that it was not about Star Wars, I will say I agree with you that anyone could use the arguement that Leia kissed Luke to make Han jealous. It is perfect b/c neither at that point in the story knew they were related. However, you stated this and I qoute ....

"As passionate as that kiss might have seemed, it was purely to tease Han and not because Leia was interested in Luke. At absolutely NO MOMENT of the film series is there ever a hint that Leia might end up with Luke. NEVER EVER"

Yes, to a person who has never seen the films there were in fact hints of a love triangle as you even posted negating yourself.

Your qoute "I still remember when I was a kid and these films were coming out there seemed to be a real love triangle and you wondered who would get Leia, Luke or Han."

1. A New Hope - Luke is stunned in his tracks and almost forgets what he is doing when he sees Leia "lounging" around in the slave quarters.
2. A New Hope - Luke easily gets upset and then somewhat angry when Han mentions, "a princess and a guy like me."

So yes Lucas could have used a love triangle if he chose to do so. The pieces and hints were there for it and "the kiss" could have brought the audience closer to thinking Han and Luke would be fighting for her. Also, you stated above that Leia only kissed Luke basically to get Han's goat and "tease" him. To that I offer you this very truthfull anology.

If Darthmaul420 kissed his sister like that to tease a girlfriend, my sister would kick me in the nuts, and continue to do so until my parents put me in an institution for therapy for my alleged "problem." At which point everyone at my college and work would probably stop talking to me .....

Last edited by DarthMaul420; 04-15-03 at 09:10 PM.
Old 04-15-03, 10:35 PM
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She has no interest in Luke. She's trying to make Han jealous. She could have just as easily kissed Lando and made the same point.
Actually, she'd just as soon kiss a Wookie.


Ohhh, beastiality!
Old 04-15-03, 11:37 PM
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....and don't get *me* started on midiclorians....

Twenty years from now, when kids watch Star Wars and wonder why, in Part 4, didn't Darth Vader test all prisoners (meaning Leia) for midiclorians, knowing they are the basis for the force!!! "Darth forgot," is all we'll be able to answer.

Or maybe we'll say, "because George Lucas is an ass." And then smash all our Star Wars action figures with a hammer.
Old 04-15-03, 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by f1shf00d
....and don't get *me* started on midiclorians....

Twenty years from now, when kids watch Star Wars and wonder why, in Part 4, didn't Darth Vader test all prisoners (meaning Leia) for midiclorians, knowing they are the basis for the force!!! "Darth forgot," is all we'll be able to answer.

Or maybe we'll say, "because George Lucas is an ass." And then smash all our Star Wars action figures with a hammer.
Didn't Lucas say he needed a reference to show how Anakin measured up to Yoda? I think that was his only reason for the midis. However like I stated before, I dont like to converse about the prequels ....
Old 04-16-03, 01:11 AM
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Originally posted by DarthMaul420


If Darthmaul420 kissed his sister like that to tease a girlfriend, my sister would kick me in the nuts, and continue to do so until my parents put me in an institution for therapy for my alleged "problem." At which point everyone at my college and work would probably stop talking to me .....
Exactly! My sister and family would do the same thing and I wouldn't blame them.
Old 04-16-03, 05:57 AM
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Sorry if I seemed upset. It's hard to indicate tone on the Internet. I got the "irony". I decided to ignore it. This is only a screen name and while amusing it's irrelevent to the point I was making.

There seemed to be a triangle because at the time we assumed there would be one. There usually is. It's in retrospect when you watch it that you realize that Lucas never had any intention of there being a triangle. Yeah, at first, Luke has a slight infatuation with her, but storywise and thematically it never really comes up as a chance they will get together. It's still about Han and Leia. Even Luke's first sighting of Leia can be explained as here is this farm boy from a back water planet on the edge of the galaxy and now he's in an adventure and OH MY GOSH! A REAL LIVE PRINCESS! The one he had just seen as a hologram. That's why he paused there. Not because he thought he was gonna get some. Han and Leia, however "meet cute"(she ends up rescuing them-into a trash compactor). Plus the Kiss in question is in Empire which is, what, 3 years after the events of the first film? In all that time she and Han have had a teasing sexually tense relationship but no consumation. Luke was as surprised as anyone when she kissed him which is a pretty strong suggestion that in that three years those two had not become an item.

The Will and Grace analogy had nothing to do with Carrie and Mark. It was more about the pretending aspect. Eric McCormick pretends to be gay, Leia pretends to kiss Luke. A viewer can react in a similar way to each. "Eww, he's gay. He kissed a dude." "Eww, they're incestuous because they're kissing." There's nothing to Eric's kiss because he's an actor, he's not really gay. There's nothing to Leia's kiss because she is kissing Luke to piss Han off, she and Luke are not incestuous. Am I saying you should tongue kiss your sister? No, of course not. If you kissed your sister to tease a girlfriend they probably (and rightly) would react just like that. However at that point they did not know they were brother and sister. If they had known, she wouldn't have done it. That would be a totally different message to Han. Once they find out, it's just something for them to laugh at rather than be revolted by because there was nothing behind it. It was an innocent kiss intended to piss off the real object of affection. The intent for it to be "naughty" was not there.

All I'm saying is people are making way too big a deal about it. The kiss was a joke and not incestuous. The rest of the film and both the other films never suggest that Luke and Leia are anything other than friends and always lead to Han and Leia becoming a couple. There is ALWAYS sexual tension between Han and Leia and never with Luke and Leia. Luke telling Han that Han won't end up with her is just part of that tension. Luke never addresses it again. Other than his ****-eating grin ("Ha, she kissed me, not you.") when does Luke ever seem to lust for or be in love with Leia? Never. Even his grin was more a tease of Han than, "Wow, she kissed me! " Luke is no dummy. In the time the three have been friends he knows there's something between Han and Leia. If he thought there might have been a chance for him he would have agonized over going to Dagobah or would have at least had a goodbye scene with Leia.
Old 04-16-03, 10:26 AM
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Originally posted by caligulathegod
Sorry if I seemed upset. It's hard to indicate tone on the Internet. I got the "irony". I decided to ignore it. This is only a screen name and while amusing it's irrelevent to the point I was making.
No need to be sorry about tone as we are all friends here. I only made that post directed at you hoping you would see the amusement in the situation and get a laugh out of it. I actually was not the one arguing against your case. My case was that Lucas has made many things up and changed a lot of his ideas as the films were made. Even many of his changes were not agreed upon by ESB Director Kershner who had to talk him out of some really goofy Vader ideas. (I'm sure they'll pop up again in episode 3 though .....)

Luke is no dummy. [/QUOTE]

I know I took this qoute out of context but you don't want to argue that Luke is a dummy do you? I'm sure Yoda himself thinks he is.
Old 04-16-03, 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by DarthMaul420
........Wouldn't it be symbolic if Lando did die in the falcon,the very ship he lost to Han, on the way out of the death star? At the end of ROTJ, instead of caring about his ship Han only cares about his friend ....
It was written and filmed that he did die. I think that at a pre screening - the audience was so upset that they put Lando back in at the end.

If you watch the tape (original version) at the ewok celebration when they all stand there - you can clearly see the matt lines around Lando. He is looking around and his actions are not consistent with that of the rest of the cast. Lucas put him back in that scene - he was never supposed to be there.
Old 04-16-03, 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by CPA-ESQ.

If you watch the tape (original version) at the ewok celebration when they all stand there - you can clearly see the matt lines around Lando. He is looking around and his actions are not consistent with that of the rest of the cast. Lucas put him back in that scene - he was never supposed to be there.
Okay, that's a lie
Old 04-16-03, 01:47 PM
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CPA-

Thats plain wrong on a variety of levels.

First off, it was never filmed...it may have been storyboarded, but all indications is that it was never filmed.

Seconldly Lando is in every type of shot during the Ewok thing - wideview shots, close up shots.
Old 04-16-03, 02:03 PM
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Well you can see the matt lines around him in that shot. (when he poses with the whole "cast" of rebels)

I have read that that shot was proof of him not being in the scene, and that they never show Lando interacting with any of the other "major" characters - Just Ewoks and other costumed characters. (which are easily reshot after the fact to put him back in)


I think the misunderstanding in my usage of "filmed." I always understood the matt lines and non interaction of Lando with other actors to mean that he was originaly slated to die.

I could be mistaken, but I was not there - I'm always open to learn more if this is not correct
Old 04-16-03, 03:23 PM
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Well, here it is from the official site. Take it from what you will:

Urban Legend: Footage exists of the Millennium Falcon being destroyed at the end of Return of the Jedi.

One of Return of the Jedi's most exciting sequences is the Millennium Falcon's escape from the exploding Death Star, just meters ahead of a burning wall of fire. It's a very close call for Lando, and for a moment, it seems that Han's bleak prophecy -- that he'll never see the Falcon again -- will come true. But the freighter blasts through the flames triumphantly.

It's hard to pin down where the rumor of the Falcon's demise started. Perhaps Harrison Ford's suggestion to George Lucas that Han Solo die at the end of Jedi fueled it spread.



One definite culprit in this legend's longevity is a revised plot synopsis treatment entitled "The Revenge and Return of the Jedi". Dated July 6 1980, (though undoubtedly printed at a later date), this concise retelling of the basic story -- with notable changes -- is a fake. It describes Luke taking over the Death Star (re-christening it the Life Star), Vader being the "other" Yoda spoke of, and Leia and Han marrying at the film's end, with Wicket one of the attendants at the wedding. It also contains the following passage:
"Meanwhile, the Death Star ray begins destroying Rebel ships. Lando and the Rebel Forces unsuccessfully attempt to penetrate the force field, and the efforts on Endor have failed. Lando sees many of his comrades dying for the Alliance. He feels that the Alliance might die itself if something is not done soon. Lando makes a final decision to plow the Millennium Falcon through the force field in a self-sacrificing gesture for the Rebel Alliance. Lando and the Falcon explode in a beautiful burst of energy and color."



The first giveaway that the treatment is bogus is that its 1980 date pre-dates Lucas' hand-written first draft of Jedi by over six months. Not only that, but this supposedly older treatment more closely matches the finished film than the first draft screenplay, which has such differing elements as two Death Stars, the Imperial capital world, and tribes of "Ewaks."
Lucas' very first hand-written draft screenplay of Jedi, dated February 24, 1981, has Lando surviving. "Chewie slaps Lando on the back, almost knocking him over," Lucas writes of the end celebration. Different versions of this survive to the final screenplay. Lando is alive and well in every version.

An excerpt from the screenplay that has Lando and the Falcon destroyed and Han looking up, quietly voicing his loss, has shown up on the Internet, but it too is a fake. Also untrue are tales that footage of the Falcon made its way into test screenings of Return of the Jedi, but was ultimately left out of the movie because it didn't score well with the audience.
Given the weight of this evidence, it appears there is no truth behind the rumor that the Falcon and Lando were originally to have perished. It is possible the idea may have been thrown around during undocumented brainstorming sessions, but the legend that it actually was committed to film is false
Old 04-16-03, 03:30 PM
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We're cool. Several people addressed it so I hope my point is finally made. There's lots of things Lucas can be called on, but not Luke and Leia and Han triangle. I will conceed they sold it like that even if it's not in the movie. "Star Wars. The Story of a Boy a Girl and the Galaxy." No wonder as children we thought we saw something that's not there.

As for Lando. I'm out of town until tomorrow but when I get home I'll pull out my laser disc of Jedi and check it out. That tidbit about Lando is jogging an old memory. I also have one of those things we do not discuss here (hint hint) and should be able to make a screencap if there's anything to it.



Edit: Yeah, that must have been the memory. Hearing that falsehood. Oh well, I'll have proof one way or the other tomorrow.

Last edited by caligulathegod; 04-16-03 at 03:39 PM.
Old 04-16-03, 08:15 PM
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I just want to throw in my two cents.

First, I don't believe for a SECOND that George Lucas wrote a 9-part epic at first. I believe he wrote Star Wars (what we all know as A New Hope), and then when it went well, the other movies came.

There are WAY too many inconsistencies, a lot of which have been touched on in this thread. Fans (I am one) can rationalize these inconsistencies away all they want to - but it won't work.

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