DarthMaul420

CPA, I have neve noticed any matt lines around Lando but I have never seen ROTJ on anything but crappy VHS. So I wil be looking to see if this true.I only saw the SE's in the theater of the first two films. I missed ROTJ.

JoeyOhhhh

Well if no one posts it, I'll pop in my laserdisc of ROTJ (pre SE) and post a few grabs of the scene.

caligulathegod

If you get to it before I do, go right ahead. I'm working a night shift so I'll be out until the afternoon.

Lastblade

It is a STORY, it is not a REAL LIFE EVENTS as it happened...

I don't really care if Lucas is making up everything on the spot or as he goes, if it is semi-coherent and is a decent movie, I will watch it (but don't follow it like a religion, it is just a movie to me).

But the prequels have so far been pretty disappointing, while the original trilogies are more fun to watch.

CPA-ESQ.

Thanks for all of the feedback.

I did some searching last night and found a couple of sites trying to debunk the Lando think.

I never saw ROTJ on Laser disk - but I know that it is on the VHS version.. I always point it out to friends, and they seem to agree that clearly the matt lines are there, and he is looking around and does not "fit in" to the sceen. (eye contact) (non-actor contact)

I would love to see some screen shots. or for someone to pop in a non-SE version and see if they see this also.

I'm not pushing my point - but just want to see if I'm crazy for seeing this or making this conclusion

GuessWho

Of course he's making it up. If anyone reads The Annotated Screenplays, you would see how the stories drastically changed from draft-to-draft.

For example, the plot of Star Wars was originally Anakin Starkiller rescuing a bunch of kidnapped children.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...7918?vi=glance

caligulathegod

My computer is fighting me so I can't take a capture, but Lando is in shots with all the cast several times and does not have matte lines. What you are seeing is normal backlighting that defines him against the background. On VHS's lower resolution, that could fool you into thinking you are seeing matte lines. They aren't there.

Spiderbite

This has been one of the most entertaining threads on Star Wars that I have every read on this forum. Lots of laughs.

The only problem I have with the original trilogy was the Luke & Leia full on mouth kisses. Yes, there were two in Empire. The major one in front of Han (where Luke pops a chubby in his long-johns) and the one where she is tending to Luke after they pick him up. I'm sorry but the 2nd kiss is not just a peck on the cheek. It is a full on mouth to mouth kiss that appears to me to show not only care but some affection. Watch it again. I have always hated the idea that Leia suddenly becomes the sister (twins...which makes it even harder to swallow). It has always seemed out of place.

As far as there being no love triangle between Luke, Han, and Leia...well...if you can't see that it is there, I would have to say you are blind. The triangle (or more like friendly competition) between Luke and Han is even given a little more depth & drama in the radio adaptations of Star Wars and Empire.

You did not imagine it. You saw it b/c it IS there.

And many thanks and laughs to the poster who mentioned the "pussification" of Han in Jedi. It was pretty pathetic how the took the best character and made him a 98lb. soaking in love weakling. They also ruin one of the best lines in Empire by throwing it back in Jedi...which makes Han look even more like a wiener.

Oh yeah...and that damn Chewbacca "Tarzan" yell.

Pants

And I'm sure after celebrating the victory on endor they both looked back and felt really grossed out. The fact is they didn't know. Leia may have had genuine feelings of love or lust for Luke, she didn't know it was her brother, honest mistake, give her some credit.

caligulathegod

Right. I still stand by my argument. There is nothing wrong with an affectionate kiss. It still isn't the same kind of kiss and is not enough to make them feel guilty. At that point they are still just friends. You've never kissed a friend at a wedding or a graduation or something? It's affection with nothing naughty behind it. When they find out they are related that kiss is not on the level of requiring them to start retching or anything.

As to the love triangle, the radio drama doesn't count. They had to fill up a whole lot of time and 'theater of the mind' so they put in a lot of extra crap. The movies NEVER ADDRESS IT. I'm not saying that Lucas never intended there to be love triangle. When writing it, he probably did and the radio drama picked up on that. I'm saying that he cut it out of the movies and (by accident) didn't paint himself into a corner of "ewwwww, gross" because IT AIN'T THERE.

Toad

Well, I've always interpreted what's on film as creatina an allusion of a "love triangle" between Luke, Leia, and Han (if, by "love triangle" you mean they both wanted her and she had interest in both of them).

It's really quite obvious that Luke is taken with her, and even more obvious that Han is. As for Leia - I think in Empire she's just using poor Luke to make Han jealous.

However, I also think that at that time, Lucas knew that Leia and Luke would be sister-brother since she's the "another" Yoda spoke of. Or else, they had to wrap filming, they shot the line, and Lucas thought "A-ha! I'll decide who it is before I do the next one!!"

JoeyOhhhh

Well, I completely forgot.

Maybe tomorrow morning

caligulathegod

Ok, watching Star Wars and Empire again today I stand by what I said. In Star Wars, other than the one scene where Luke asks Han what he thinks of her, Luke NEVER shows any interest in Leia. They barely say 2 words to each other the whole film! The only time they even address each other is, "I'm Luke Skywalker, I'm here to rescue you. I brought Ben Kenobi," and when they are about to swing across the chasm. Even then, she kisses his cheek(!), "for luck". The rest of the film she barely even acknowedges his existance. She consoles him for a second about Ben, but that's it until he blows up the Death Star, even then she speaks to Han, not Luke, "I knew there was more to you than money."

Empire, watch that kiss scene again. The whole scene Luke is rolling his eyes over Han's egotistical yammerings. When Leia kisses him (closed mouth, by the way), his expression is a tease of Han. He smacks his lips but no "rolling his tongue around" theatrics and all of it is for Han's benefit. The second kiss IS just a peck on the lips. She pecks him and says, "I'll be right back." I'd hardly even call it a kiss. Plus, that is after she has actually told Han she loves him. Why would that little peck be something more than what it was? What's more, Luke and Leia don't have a single dialogue scene together in the whole movie! Their whole dialogue to each other consists of: "IT'S A TRAP!" and "I'll be right back." That's it. Luke and Leia never even hold a conversation until Return of the Jedi(!).

Most of us first saw these films as children and as children you don't understand the formula: the couple that fights the most ALWAYS gets together. We just know Luke is the Hero and Leia is the rescued princess and in our childish experience they just HAVE to get together. Watch it again as an adult with an adult's experience and you'll see that from the moment Han is told about Leia they are destined for each other. Luke has a brief infatuation with her at the beginning but thematically that scene is there just to show Han actually has some interest in her. Luke drops it after that and has his own destiny to worry about. The triangle is NOT THERE. Just a single line of dialogue from Luke meant to propel Han toward her. By the time we get to Empire, it's not there, either. Hell, the POSTER has Han and Leia in an embrace. The film itself separates Luke from Leia and puts Han together with her. Luke and Leia never even speak to each other THE WHOLE FILM. That is hardly a love triangle.

Watch Star Wars and Empire again (Jedi doesn't matter because Han & Leia are officially established in it) and you will see what I'm talking about. Not to be insulting, but seriously if that kiss STILL bothers you after that then you probably still think "girls got cooties", anyway . There is NOTHING gross happening between Luke and Leia that makes the brother/sister thing come into question. You are just taking things way too seriously.

DarthMaul420

As for the Matt lines .... my vhs copies are so worn out I'm lucky I can watch them! I am quite impressed no one has gotten banned or this thread hasn't turned into a flame fest.

JoeyOhhhh

True, but this whole love triangle discussion could take it there very fast.

As for matte lines, you be the judge:





And I never seen this tidbit listed anywhere, but when the Death Star 2 blows up, you can make a peace sign out of the explosion:


All these shots were taken from the 1995 laserdisc. Sadly this is the best quality the screen shots are taken at.

Spiderbite

Well, I watched Star Wars the other day on Laserdisc after listening to the radio drama for the first time in quite a few years. I know you said to discount the radio drama but it was blessed and reviewed by George Lucas way before the brother/sister storyline.

Looking at just the movies though I still think there is again...maybe not a true love triangle but a little friendly competition between the boys. Luke comments that he's glad Han's not trying to think of her. We already know that Luke thinks she beautiful and seems taken with her.

I looked at the original book & screenplay...both written by Lucas before the movie came out. Even though it may be subtle, Luke obviously has an interest in Leia. I do think you are are correct is stating that Leia doesn't really have a great interest in Luke though. Hell, she even puts him down the first time she meets him (short joke).

Anyway, in the scene above, Leia mentions to Luke about how she wonders if Han cares about anything or anybody. Luke whispers..."I care." Luke then asks Han what he thinks of her. Han then asks him if he thinks a guy like him and a princess could make it to which Luke quickly and sharply cuts him off with a "No!" It then describes in both the script and the book that Han smiles at the young boy's "jealously." Why is this scene in there other than to show that Luke definitely has an interest in Leia.

I am also going to quote the last paragraph of the book:

"As he stood awash in the cheers and shouts, Luke found that his mind was neither on his possible future with the Alliance nor on the chance of traveling adventurously with Han Solo and Chewbacca. Instead, unlikely as Solo had claimed it might be, he found his full attention occupied by the radiant Leia Organa.

She noticed his unabashed stare, but this time she only smiled."

Okay...after seeing what the creator of this story wrote in his original book and screenplay, how could you say that Luke did not have an interest in Leia? No matter how subtle it might seem to you in the movie, the writer/director/creator wrote it and filmed it this way.

chanster

If you can't see the love interest between Leia and Luke in Star Wars, and ESB, you are frickin blind. He shuts down Han in the Falcon on the way back from the Death Star when he asks about her..he is enchanted by her beauty which starts the whole movie anyway. Then there is the kiss and him reclining like he is happy.

caligulathegod

As I said before, he probably DID intend it to be there originally. It exists in the extracurricular material. However, the purpose of the discussion was how Lucas contradicted himself and made Luke and Leia an item in the earlier films and then made them brother and sister and how gross it is. My point is in the films it's not there. It was softened and even cut completely out. I acknowleged the one scene where Luke shows his interest, and I would say that scene exists more to show Han's reaction. "What do you think of her?" "I'm trying not to." "Good." Then Han changes his mind to tease Luke "Still, she's got a lot of spirit. What do you think? Could a princess and a guy like me get together?" That scene is there for two purposes. One, it IS there to show Luke smitten with her; Two, it spells out in black and white Han and Leia are going to be a couple. After that scene, Luke drops it. He never shows any interest in her again. While one might deduce that he still has something for her, it's not in the film anymore after that, nor is it in Empire. My point is that there's nothing gross that still exists in the finished film. Not enough to seriously gross out the average viewer. What is happening is you guys are grossed out by THE IDEA of Luke and Leia's incest and projecting that into an imagined illicit interest between the two. At the most, it is one-sided (Leia doesn't have a single dialogue scene with Luke outside the chasm until Return of the Jedi and never shows any interest in Luke) and I'd even venture that it is less than one-sided but actually ONE-SCENED. At the least, it is imagined by projecting one's expectations against established movie formula (the couple that fights the most always ends up together).

One has to go to the radio drama to fill in that portion of the story and there I can't argue. But the question was about why Lucas would write in that kiss scene when Luke and Leia somehow "always knew" they were brother and sister. The best we've been able to come up with is one scene when Luke FIRST MEETS HER three years before the kiss. The rest of the film he does kind of treat her like a sister. When we finally get to that kiss, it's nothing. It's closed mouth and obviously to tease Han (even Luke's reaction). The second kiss, I can't even believe was brought up. It's less than nothing. It's barely a peck and it happens right after Leia confesses her love for Han. Now she's going to move in on Luke?

There's just not enough to it to worry about or be grossed out by. It's just the IDEA that's grossing you out, nothing that's actually in the movie.

caligulathegod

Again, in ESB, Luke and Leia only have three scenes together and no dialogue (she addressed him twice: "IT'S A TRAP" and "I'll be right back." Hardly lovers' patter). First when she kisses him to tease Han. Second when she drags him off after the rescue at Cloud City and third when they watch Lando go off to rescue Han. Where is there any scene in ESB where there is love interest?

Iron_Giant

And if I remeber correctly, C3PO was shot and put in a junk pile.

Maybe Vader wanted to get rid of him.

caligulathegod

Oh yeah, Lucas didn't write the novel. Alan Dean Foster ghostwrote it for him.

Also, the script contradicts the twin thing anyway. It says Luke is 19 and Leia is 16.

JoeyOhhhh

True, I mis-remembered.

But he still saw him when he was strapped to Chewies back.

None the less it was to really shoot down the arguement that Vader constantly runs into the droids.

NCMojo

The reason they barely say 2 words to each other is that they are not physically in the same place. Leia is on the Death Star, Luke is on Tattoine. It's pretty clear from the way Luke stares at Leia's hologram image -- and the fact that he blurts out, "Who is she? She's beautiful!" -- that he is interested in her. And again, look at his quick jealous response when Han teasingly says, "You think a Princess and a guy like me --" "No." When he walks into her jailcell, he just stares at her for a few moments until she makes the "Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?" dig -- this is not the stare of someone disinterested, Cal, but more the stare of a thirsty man staring at a desert oasis... and he wants to take a long deep slurp of that luscious Leia water.

OK, OK, maybe I am reading something into this -- but I do not think I am mistaken when I say that Luke, Leia and Han were painted as being a sincere "love triangle" since the very beginning. Maybe -- just maybe, since you are a senior member, Caligula, and I am but a lowly pleeb -- maybe you are reviewing these movies with something of a jaundiced eye? I mean, knowing how it's all going to end up? Just a thought.

OK, I agree about the second kiss, although I always did think that was a bit weird, what with her professed love of Han and all. I never have been sure what all of that was about. But the first kiss -- all right, maybe you and your sister do kiss each other like that all of the time, I don't want to pass judgement, but as far as I am concerned... that was more than just a chaste peck. Maybe it wasn't "hot and heavy" but it did measure a 7.8 on the Icky Scale. (Named after former Bengals great Icky Woods, for those NFL trivia buffs out there.)

Now, two important points:

1) Luke does not know that Leia is his sister at this point, so why on earth would be not be attracted to her? I mean, if you stuck me in front of Jennifer Garner and gave me a good five minutes or so, I sure as heck would be trying to get her out of her clothes. And if I later found out that she was my sister... well, first of all, I'd have to say, "Way to go, Dad!"... but it would not change the basic reaction of any red-blooded heterosexual male.

(Which begs the question -- is Luke gay? -- which is, alas, an entirely different DVDTalk tread.)

2) All of this is set "a long time again, in a galaxy far, far away"... maybe way back then, way out there, it's okay for a brother and sister to share a little bit of nookie. How do we know? So maybe it's not all that unusual for space aliens -- what they would be to us earthlings -- to engage in some extracurricular activity. Maybe. But here on Earth, in this day and time, you just don't go around kissing your sister. No, no, no. Not even just a peck or a "kiss for luck".

Again, that's because the plot keeps them physically apart for the entire movie. It seems pretty clear that Luke and Leia would probably have talked more, and perhaps even done more (wink, wink) if they'd been on the same planet for a few more scenes.

This is exactly my point, Caligula. If you watch the movie knowing the outcome in Jedi then of course you can extrapolate all you want and say that, well, of course Luke never had any interest in Leia. And of course when Ben says that Vader killed Luke's father, well, we can extrapolate as Obi-Wan does and mutter something about "a certain point of view". And so on and so on -- each time granting George Lucas his due amount of genuflection over being such a master storyteller with this grand epic vision and script continuity.

OR we could just fess up and say, "OK, so he made it up as he went along" and all have a good laugh about it. Just seems to me to be a lot more sensible.

All of your posts, and this debate, by the way, also proves my original point -- if GL knew from the beginning that Luke and Leia were twin brother and sister, then why even have a hint or an insinuation that they have romantic feelings? Why not just make it a clear-cut "boy resuces princess in an oddly sexless sort of way" film and be done with it? By including these scenes, I think it makes it clear that George was making it up as he went along, which is OK by me if he would just admit the truth.

You know, I never thought of that.

Gee whiz, back when I was seven, girls did have cooties. And then one day, they all just seemed to disappear. I was frankly blinded by their sudden cleavage and completely missed this utter lack of cootiedom. What could all of this mean? Could it be that billions and billions of women still have the cooties and we all have just missed it all of these years??? Oh, the horror! Oh, the shame! ;-)

caligulathegod

I'm one of the big proponents of the fact he made it up as he went along. Vader did not become Luke's father until the writing sessions of ESB and Leia was not "no, there is another [hope]" and was never his sister and most definitely not his twin until Jedi was written. It's all out there in black and white and is no mystery. Just read that Annotated Scripts books and it will prove it. My whole point is that Lucas, through luck, didn't accidentally write himself into a corner that he couldn't get out of. I did some research on reviews and it's something that everyone has missed. Everyone assumes that there was this big love triangle between Luke, Leia and Han. There IS that one scene where Luke shows his interest (I haven't denied it). He WAS infatuated with her. People caught onto that and then it colored the way they think of the rest of the trilogy. "Of course there is a love triangle. I saw it. It's all through the films. How can you not see it?" I think knowing how it comes out not only doesn't color how I perceive it but allows me to re-examine the relationship of these characters in black & white hard reality. While initially there is the beginnings of a rivalry, it never actually goes anywhere. We just assumed it does. When you watch every scene with Luke and Leia you realize that there really never is any scene with Luke and Leia. In Star Wars they are alone only once and that's during the rescue. He's too busy rescuing her to put the mack on her. The only scene in ESB they are alone in he's half unconscious after they rescue him from Bespin. Then they watch Lando go off to rescue Han. Luke never addresses her. Other than "I'm Luke Skywalker, I'm here to rescue you." "I think I shot the panel that controls the bridge." "I care." "HEY!" (which everyone mistakenly thinks he yells, "CARRIE!") and "Hear me, Leia" I challenge anyone to quote a line Luke says to Leia in Star Wars or Empire. Luke and Leia are separated for pretty much both films. And what Luke doing during these separations? He's destroying the Death Star, He's training with Yoda, He's fighting Vader. He's not sitting around pining for Leia. Now consider all the Han and Leia scenes. Every scene they are arguing, teasing, flirting. They actually hold conversations. There's definitely something going on there. It's sexual tension at its most classic. Right up there with Sam and Diane, Dave and Maddy, Bogart and Bacall. Now witness every scene that Han, Leia and Luke share. To whom does she talk? Who talks to her? Han. She ignores Luke. She and Han are together for the majority of both movies. Slowly but surely they fall in love. Luke never comes into the picture. We get setup to expect a love triangle and then as the film goes on we realize that it is never about a love triangle. There never is any good natured competition between the boys for Leia. It is entirely about "will Han and Leia get together?" Never "Who will get Leia? Han or Luke?" Amazingly, we all imagined something that is not there.

If you watch the film not knowing the outcome and expect a love triangle then you are waiting two whole films for Luke to get his shot. He never does. It's a subplot that doesn't exist and never existed. Other than Luke's "Gosh, she's purty" when he first meets her, he's always separated from her and off becoming a Jedi and such. Luke is not gay or stupid. Of course he thinks she's a babe. It just never elevates into a real competition.

Again with the kiss. They don't know they are brother and sister at that point. She would not have kissed him like that had she known. It doesn't even matter that it was Luke she was kissing because she was just "kissing someone who was NOT HAN." That was the whole point of the kiss. Why is it so hard to see that she kissed him to get Han's goat? It's not like she kisses Luke and gives him a good grope. It's a closed mouth kiss and meant entirely to tease Han. "You sure have a lot to learn about women." Is there anything in that kiss or scene that indicates she was kissing Luke because she wanted to kiss Luke? Han had just spent the whole scene bragging about how "She revealed her true feelings for me." "********," she says and kisses the nearest man that isn't Han 'full of himself' Solo. Even better that it is a friend of Han's. Had Lando been there she would have just as easily kissed him. I've mentioned before, watch Luke during the whole exchange. He's not making puppydog eyes at Leia. He's groaning and rolling his eyes at what Han is saying. I know Mark Hamill isn't the finest actor but watch him. He's not seething with jealousy or consumed with lust. He's amused by their banter and mock appalled at Han's bravado and bragging. Then when she kisses him he leans back and smiles. Yeah, because a pretty girl kissed him (I tend to do that, too) but mostly because he knows he's on the good side of a pretty good joke at Han's expense. Because we are still expecting that triangle to happen, we read something that is not there at all. If Luke had thought that was his chance to move in (thus finally acting on this supposed triangle) then he would have went and sweettalked the princess a bit. What does he do? He goes off to Dagobah. He never even says goodbye to her. He does Han, though. Why does he not say goodbye to her? Because there's no thematic reason to, that's why. A thematic reason to would be that maybe he loves her or something and now they are going to be separated. But he doesn't. The story never sets him up to be in love with Leia and this goes super-duper-especially for ESB. ESB has two stories. Han and Leia falling in love and Luke becoming a Jedi and confronting Vader. Whatever remnants of the rivalry expressed in that ONE scene in Star Wars are gone in ESB. Leia comes right out and tells Han she loves him and guess what? He Knows!

So Lucas, through dumb luck or just plain normal storytelling never gives Luke and Han the opportunity to compete for a relationship that needed a resolution by making Luke and Leia siblings and giving Han Leia by default. I say normal storytelling because the needs of the story keep Luke on his own path. How would you shoehorn in a plot where Luke is trying to chat up the princess AND go off to train to be a Jedi? You can't. They just are never in the same room at the same time.

I think it is one of the most misunderstood plotpoints in history. Han and Leia have a straightforward romance throughout the whole trilogy and Luke never enters into it. There is never a love triangle. Ever. Just one scene early on where Luke says he thinks she's pretty hot. That's not incest and it's not a romance and it's not a triangle.

Isn't it amazing that here is this film we think we know so well even to the point we imagine we are offended by an element of it and then it turns out we were actually wrong about it? I bet you can walk up to anyone you know and ask them about the Dynamic between Luke, Han and Leia and they will all tell you there was a triangle. Ask where this triangle manifests itself and they will probably go to that one scene where Luke cockblocks Han after the rescue and then the Kiss. There's no other scene in the whole trilogy (with one exception) that indicates or demonstrates a triangle. The Kiss can be dismissed (as I've explained several times) and the cockblocking never comes up again (pun unintended). The exception? It's in Jedi when Han offers to step aside for Luke because he saw them talking and misunderstood what it was about. Well, it was the only conversation Luke has with Leia the whole trilogy, so Han can be excused.

Buck Turgidson

That's the big key, for me. He doesn't say "I'd like to pull her pigtails" or "She might be fun to chase..."

He wants some, plain and simple.