Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

But TrueHD and DTS-HD are not part of the standard BD spec, even Profile 2.0. They're optional extensions to the standard, the same as B3D.

So again, you say you bought a BD player specifically because it could play optional extensions to the standard audio codecs, extensions you don't particularly care about, but you're upset they are now going to offer an optional extension to the video codec?

Issues with early players weren't because there wasn't a standard, there was, but it was due to incompatibilities with that standard. According to the spec, a 1.0 player should be able to any BD.

The same happened with early DVD players and issues with playback, and DVD only had one profile. It just takes a while for a new industry standard to get all the kinks worked out.

So you've bought/sold a PS3, and have already upgraded multiple stand-alone players, but this optional extension to the format pisses you off because it may require another upgrade?

Why didn't you stick with the BD350 (was this the Song or LG model)? If it had the "final" standard you wanted, why upgrade again?

Not according to what you originally wrote:
If you're saying now that you misspoke when you wrote that, then that's different.

However, again I must point out the contradiction: you don't care for Lossless audio, yet you're not upset that these optional audio codecs are included on BDs, taking up space. However, you are upset about a new 3D video extension being included, even though it's optional as well.

But it did require additional hardware when it was first added to BDs, since one would need a D-BOX compatible BD player, which the first-gen BD players were not.

As my UP BD, and the numerous other multi-disc BD sets can attest to, studios are definitely moving towards offering more discs, not less.

I was just responding to your points. You don't feel the need to defend them?

Again: not a new format, but an extension to an existing one.

But why do you care that HD DVD players had more features enabled at launch, when those are features you don't care for? It's like preferring one radio over another because it has an iPod dock, but you never plan on having an iPod.


No, I'm saying you couldn't view the anamorphic enhancement, so it had no immediate advantage over letterboxed DVDs to you.

Are 3D glasses hard to come by?

My point is this: many other optional extensions to a format required additional hardware in the past: Anamorphic enhancement and DTS for DVDs, and TrueHD and DTS-HD for BD. None of these have been the target of vitrol from you, and you've actually praised the virtues of some of these optional extensions. So why is B3D, another optional extension, the target of such disgust from you?

And I have repeatedly pointed to the example of Coraline: an existing BD that contains a separate 3D transfer on the same disc as the 2D transfer, that retails for the same price as other BDs and still has good image quality, despite the 2D version having less bandwidth than a potential B3D version would. So both of those worries seem unfounded at this point.

Anyway, if the BD costs more, or if the 2D encode is compromised, it will be the fault of the studio, not the B3D extension itself.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

No, he's upset because he has to live in a Blu world. This is just the latest improvement to the format that he can get worked up over. See: almost every other thread in HD Talk.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

Regardless if I could 'hear' them or not, I wanted it to be a full spec'ed player. I didn't want to settle for one of the many half-baked players. Audio extensions were not really the big deal for me, I was more concerned with BD-Live since studios were moving stuff off the BD to dump on their online service and I wanted to take part in Netflix and Streaming.

You should check out some of the threads on AVS describing many Gen 1-3 players. Even though they should play any BD, many do not. Firmware updates are required and they are slow to (sometimes never) come out. Since Blu-ray DRM seems to change on a monthly basis for some studios, it becomes a hassle for the older players.

I've upgraded many times...I'm never happy (until now with the BD390). Did the same with HD DVD even though it was 1 spec. However, upgrading a BD player never required me to buy a new TV and/or Glasses.

350 has crappy DVD upconversion and didn't have streaming. I finally settled on a BD390 which does everything I could ever want in a Blu-ray player. I'll likely be keeping it for a long time.

Lossless is great, but the 'Core' is fine for me (DD+/DTS HD). I respect the fact that a good chunk of people can listen to lossless on their systems since most BD players on the market today, the ones that are driving adoption like nuts and are very cheap, can do internal decoding. No additional hardware is required, assuming they have a basic 5.1 setup, since the player sends lossless LPCM to the receiver/setup. Old, analog receivers or new HDMI ones can handle lossless when the BD player internally decodes them.

3D will appeal to a very small base of consumers. TVs are expensive, and currently we don't know the price for 3D BD players and/or glasses. All of which requires the consumer to purchase new equipment. So why punish a huge majority of people will possibly an inferior 2D encode, potentially lost extras, and possible a higher price tag?


Sorry, I never followed D-BOX so I would have no idea if 1.0 players could handle it or not. Since the amount of people who own a D-BOX is very small, I doubt this really mattered to them. If they spent $5,000+ on a chair, I would guess $200-400 for a BD player would be OK with them.


No, not really. UP is 4 discs because Disney included a DVD and Digital copy individually. Both are not required to watch the film in Blu-ray in any way. It's Disney trying to get consumers to buy the more expensive version of the film and/or hope people adopt Blu-ray faster. Warner did the same thing before they combined the DVD/DC on to one disc. Many other releases are simply 1 disc (unless they toss in a Digital Copy). Studios have been getting better at movie encodes taking up less space and dropping PCM which took up more space on the disc.

As I said, it was fully baked at launched. $500 in 2006 meant your player worked exactly as it should when it died in 2008. It could play Online content and could internally decode TrueHD (DTS MA was only used in a few domestic releases). It could play all Special Features. A $1000 BD player purchased in June 2006 couldn't play all Special Features or go online in 2008 when HD DVD died. Twice the price for doing less.

Are they? You're asking someone who has no interest in this 3D crap. Are they sold today in stores? Price?


Sure they have. You don't think I've mentioned many times here how 1.0/1.1 players are essentially useless to many? As for DVD - I wasn't as big into buying back then compared to now. I didn't have a sound system and got my DVDs very cheap. Things are different now. I have a decent setup so I'd like the best. But when the format is changing, yet again, and requires several pieces of additional hardware, it pisses me off.

You and I won't get anywhere. I find 3D to be a waste of money and just something else to confuse consumers when they have yet to fully embrace Blu-ray. I really don't see consumers wearing special glasses at home to watch movies. While it's fun once and a while at the Theater, I just don't see it catching on at home.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

Mod Note: Let's not turn this into a HD DVD vs. Blu-ray thread. There's no point.

Gizmo, I guess the basic point Jay G. is trying to make is this: Blu-ray contains several optional extensions to the basic spec, some of which you yourself don't even use, and you don't complain about those. But now B3D, which is also optional (given that this will still give you a 2D image that is of a higher bitrate than putting two separate encodes on the same disc the way Coraline did), comes out and you're playing chicken little, acting like the sky is falling. We're just not sure why you care so much when it's likely that this development won't change 95% of the discs we'll get from here on out, and the ones that do have 3D will also natively play 2D.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

As said, early DVD players also had problems playing certain discs, and I seem to recall some HD-DVD players had problems with certain discs as well.

How do we know that 3D will only appeal to a very small base of consumers? Because you don't like it? I don't see how we can even begin to make that kind of estimation when there isn't anything in stores yet. Plus, if you read that last paragraph back, I see 3 words that really stick out: possibly, potentially, possible. That all tells me that you don't know what the effect of 3D will be, much like the rest of us, despite your assertions.


If studios are getting better at movie encodes, why are you sure that including a 3D version will negatively affect the final disc?

Right now, the arguments against 3D have basically come down to "I don't like 3D!" and pure conjecture. In time, maybe you'll be proven right, but right now, you're making arguments that are impossible to prove or disprove. Is it possible that the 2D version could be affected? Sure. It's also very possible that it won't. We just have to wait and actually see the product.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

Oh, I was writing my above comment when Supr posted above. I wasn't trying to egg on a format debate with HD-DVD and Blu-ray. Hell, I was originally a HD-DVD supporter! Just wanted to point out that none of the newer formats have been immune to growing pains.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

I'm looking forward to good quality 3D in the home, even though I won't be upgrading my projector for at least another 3 or 4 more years. The dual color 3D sucks badly.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

I just bought a cheaper projector and will upgrade it in 2-3 years. Should be interesting to see how well the new equipment works with regular and 3d stuff.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

I think this is the best post in the whole discussion. As long as the quality and price doesn't suffer, this is no different to me than a lossless audio track is, since I can't use one. When the day comes that I can, it will give me a new way to enjoy many titles in my collection. I think this 3D will be the same thing.

However, I think it is pathetic that HD DVD is being dragged into this, and not by Gizmo. Let it go for cripes sake.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

To be fair, GizmoDVD did bring up HD DVD first:
After I disproved that notion (based on a misunderstanding of how B3D works), GizmoDVD was the next to bring up HD DVD:
I ignored that mention, as I think did everyone else. So, GizmoDVD brought HD DVD up again:
So it's been GizmoDVD's comments that have been repeatedly bringing in comparisons to HD DVD.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

This makes it sound like you're just pissed about B3D because it will mean your BD player doesn't have all the features possible anymore, even if they're features your don't care about (like lossless audio).

That's funny, because earlier you wrote:
So BD-Live is "a giant piece of shit" that you want access to? Also, Netflix isn't part of the BD spec, and may require people to buy new hardware to play. You don't mind that optional feature though?

Which is a problem with the players, not the spec. The same thing happened with DVD, and nearly any standard that has multiple manufacturers and content providers.

Upgrading to BD requires a new TV though. Considering 60% of US Households don't have an HDTV yet, this hardware limitation may not hurt adoption as much as you think.

But... it was fully spec!! Are you suggesting that people may care about more than just spec standards, and want extra features (like Netflix streaming or 3D)?

I have a "basic 5.1" setup. I also have a BD player. However, my BD player cannot decode lossless multichannel, and my receiver can't either. So I'd need to upgrade either my BD player or receiver in order to hear lossless multichannel audio on my setup. Basic fact: Lossless audio on BD is an optional extension, and people that want it may have to upgrade existing equipment, same as with B3D.

Extremely debatable. 3D presentation in theaters has show than there's certainly a large amount of interest in 3D. I don't see why the people who like 3D in theaters, and pay more for it, wouldn't be interested in 3D at home.

A "huge majority" of households (60%) don't have an HDTV yet, and an even larger majority don't have BD players. Introducing a new optional extension to BD gives an added incentive to those households to upgrade to both HDTV and BD.

It actually looks like you'd need a whole new D-BOX controller to use the motion codes stored on a BD:
http://www.d-box.com/en/home-theatre...dalone-series/

It doesn't look like you need a special player though, since it syncs using the LFE audio channel.

It still has 2 BD discs. The point being, that studios are trending towards multi-disc BDs, not away from it.

The Up BD was so cheap that I know people who don't even have a BD player that bought it instead of the "just DVD" version. So it must be Disney trying to get consumers to adopt Blu-ray faster, which is a good thing.

Which means that there's be more room for the 3D version on the disc.

Unless is was a PS3, which will also be able to output B3D.

It looks like they range from about $0.90 for paper ones, to about $15 for clip-on lenses for existing eyeglasses:
http://www.google.com/products?q=3d+...d+glasses&aq=f

I wasn't asking about profiles 1.0 or 1.1, I was asking about DTS for DVDs, and TrueHD and DTS-HD for BD. Have you ever complained about DTS-HD or TrueHD not being supported by all hardware, or requiring new hardware, or taking up space that could've been used for the video encode?

So, since you couldn't use the DTS track on DVDs, did you ever complain about its inclusion on certain DVDs? After all, it took space away from the video encode, and was completely optional, and required additional hardware, which you didn't have.

They already do, and have been since anaglyphic 3D versions started showing up on DVD. It certainly appeals to at least some consumers, just like lossless audio does.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

Starship Troopers had a "feature" where it would skip part of the movie on Sony players.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

I can't find a reference to this; I found a reference that it wouldn't play the film at all on certain Sony BD Players, due to the disc requiring drive storage present on BD-Live capable players, even if the user doesn't intend to use BD-Live:
http://www.pacificdisc.com/blog/?p=53

However, this didn't affect the PS3:
http://futurethreat.wordpress.com/20...roopers-issue/
It affected other brand players as well, like the Panasonic DMP-BD50K:
http://www.amazon.com/tag/blu-ray/fo...x3QSU20SNM30WG

In short, it was an authoring glitch that affected all BD-Live players without storage.

Starship Troupers originally had another authoring glitch, where a few seconds of video repeated, replacing the video that should've been during those few seconds, while the audio soundtrack was fine. This was an error in the video encode itself, and thus all players displayed the glitch.
http://forum.dvdtalk.com/hd-talk/519...ml#post9562364

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

Like I said, I know other people have had problems, but I have not. I wasn't needing examples.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

Apparently my brain is melting and I have no idea what I'm doing.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1033...ptroopers.html

I could've sworn I read something that said it was doing it on Sony players, but what do I know? Apparently not very much. :shrug:

edit: And I typed all this without making it to the end of your post. Old age has claimed me, it seems.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

For the record, I already have a few 3D Blurays at home that use the crappy blue and red glasses. Coralline, Journey to the Center of the Earth, My Bloody Valentine, and Sea Monsters 3D, and they already look pretty good. It's with the super close images that it can't quite get. So I'm really excited about RealD at home, always have been.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

The 3D can work okay with red/blue, but the color is effectively destroyed.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

^ Yeah, that's definitely the biggest drawback to the traditional 3D experience. The other one is that I'm much more inclined to headaches or eye strain with the old method. I haven't had as much problem in that respect with the newer 3D (at least in theaters).

FWIW, the New York Times has an article on the three competing technologies for 3D in current use in theaters:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/28/te....html?emc=eta1

Apparently the XpanD LCD glasses are similar to the tech that is going to be used in the BD version of 3D.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

Blu-ray 3D (B3D) doesn't rely on any one type of 3D display technology. Hence the term "display agnostic". B3D simply stores and transmits the two images, it's up to the display to determine what method to display the 3D in.

I think this line in the article what caused the confusion:
Note that the quote is referring to the method of 3D used by the HDTVs, not Blu-ray.

BTW, XpanD uses what is called "time sequential" 3D, which alternates between displaying the left and right image on the screen, while shutter glasses are used that sync with the screen and alternate which eye can see the screen, alternating at 120 times a second (120hz).

Glasses for home use already exist from nVidia:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001PV6MCS/

Here's a page that describes a number of display methods available:
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/pc/3dglass.html

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

Pretty good article. One of the things that intrigued me was prescription 3D glasses. I wear glasses, so it's always a bit of a pain in the ass when I go to a 3D movie having to wear the 3D glasses over my regular ones. Granted, I'm sure they would be far too expensive for me to willing to buy, but I appreciate that the creators are at least thinking about something for those people who already wear glasses.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

You could use clip-on 3D lenses:
http://www.ultimate3dheaven.com/3dclglcipo.html
http://www.berezin.com/3D/3dglasses.htm#Circular

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

^ I like that! I just glanced at both sites, and the one says the clip-ons are compatible with Real D theaters. I'm almost curious enough to buy a pair and give them a try the next time there's a 3D movie.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

RealD uses circular polarization, so either pair should work.

Re: CES: 3D Spec is finally done
 

LPCM is part of the BD spec and it's lossless.