re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Just wait until the next Barnes and Noble 50% off Criterion Sale.

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

December:
Crash
Amores Perros
Symbiopsychotaxiplasm
Mouchete

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Always thought this one was worthy of a slot in the Criterion Collection. Surprised it took 20 years, though, as Iñárritu proved he was the real deal with petty much each new film he made after it.

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Crash is a nice addition, but... it looks like the Arrow 4K version is the way to go.

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Yeah, this feels a lot like Parasite. They're just too late to the punch.

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Parasite review...we have a winner, despite the critics movie score.

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I dunno... twice the price for a quarter of the resolution doesn't seem like a winner to me.

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

certainly a winner for those without a 4K setup yet. though it is odd that they put the b/w version on the first disc. oh well, beggars can't be choosers...

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Replying to a post from the VSU thread:

My longstanding theory is that the collector's mentality behind Criterion is the big hurdle.

The minute they release anything in Ultra HD, Criterion completists will complain that their collections are now worthless and that they're being forced to buy their entire library all over again. Some might use this as a jumping off point. There'll be complaints about why a terrible film like _______ is getting the UHD treatment while the infinitely more worthy _______ doesn't, which could distract/dominate the discussion. When a title only comes out on BD, people might resist buying it, waiting instead for a UHD BD that'll never come. If they release slightly more expensive single SKU combo packs, there'll be complaints that Criterion is ripping people off. If they release separate SKUs, some people without UHD capability might not want to buy the BD, feeling as if they'd be opting for a version that isn't the best possible. Some of the licensors they work with don't offer UHD rights, reserving that for themselves, which can present a disincentive for customers who are less interested in a BD. (Those licensing issues apply to many of Criterion's highest-profile releases this year.) Then there are issues with landing on a workable price point, figuring out how to visually distinguish the packaging across three different formats, getting retailers like Barnes and Noble to stock another format... And maybe not any one of those things is itself a big deal, but the cumulative effect could be more of a hassle than they'd want to deal with.

It's easier to maintain the status quo. There are some people who'll say "only in UHD!", but is it a meaningful number? Will they actually follow through and avoid buying these movies on BD, when it really does come down to a choice of Blu-ray-or-nothing? There's a greater risk and a whole lot more to figure out in embracing UHD than to just keep on truckin'. Criterion unquestionably has the resources to make this happen -- hell, they have plenty of 4K masters handy, including some already graded for HDR -- but I think their size and fanbase might actually work against them. They're not large enough to absorb a huge blow if they go big into this and it doesn't work out. And yet they're also not small enough to more freely experiment. If some of these boutiques who'd dipped their toes in the water didn't see any traction, they could just let that be that and move on, but with Criterion, the nature of THE COLLECTION means that releasing a title on another format is more seismic. Whatever they do colors the perception of everything else. However they approach their first title defines the way they're expected to handle their releases going forward.

I hope that changes. Maybe they'll have to keep up with the Joneses if/when more apples-to-apples boutiques (like the BFI, Eureka, etc.) dive into the format. Perhaps a filmmaker they're eager to work with will insist upon it. But I think it's more likely that Criterion will stop at Blu-ray, and anything they do with UHD will be limited to the Criterion Channel. Though for all I know, they'll just drop an announcement out of the blue with no warning whatsoever, just like Arrow did a few months back. My fingers are crossed but my breath is not being held.

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

In all honesty, how many people do you think are actual Criterion completists? They've released around 1,050 titles. I can't imagine there are more than 100 people who have the whole collection - and I'm being generous. Criterion can't concern themselves with pissing off this VERY small number of completists - especially when some of them will probably just wind up adopting the UHD-BDs and some others will continue to collect the non-UHD-BD releases (assuming Criterion continues to release separate DVD and BD releases and doesn't switch to dual-format releases).

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Maybe I should've said "collectors" instead of "completists". But at least on several of the home video forums/groups I read, there's a tremendous amount of hostility about the concept of Criterion adopting UHD BD. A lot of interest in the format for sure, but a vocal, venomous, and seemingly larger contingent 100% opposed. Not just "I'm sticking with Blu-ray", but a refusal to accept that the choice be made available to anyone.

With as poorly as their last attempt at that went, I think they'd be gunshy about doing it again.

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I never really thought about this whole argument now but I kind of get the point. And I might one of the few people that actually appreciated the DVD/Blu-Ray Combos they did at the beginning of the launch. I don't think I could afford a Blu-Ray player at the time because of school and even though they cost a little more, it was so great having those already in my library when I did buy a Blu-Ray (I think PlayStation 4 was actually my first player) player. I basically ended up watching each and every one of those movies again cause I was pretty stunned by the clarity over the DVD. I was a pretty cash poor University student so when I bought a good TV and the Blu-Ray Player, I was pretty shocked...

But would I buy some sort of UHD/Blu-Ray Combo? Not sure. At least not for a while...I've kind of okay with Blu-Ray. Only stuff that tempt me would be stuff like that Dawn of the Dead Combo Set. Stuff like that would interest me...But for the most part I'm okay with Criterion's Blu-Rays, if only cause I just don't see them going down the UHD path anytime soon unless, like someone else alluded to, some filmmaker insists on it...But who knows what costs they would infer from that; I assume they'd have to license it out to be produced in a different warehouse, or obviously just pay a higher price to get it manufactured. Obviously I don't have the details so at this point I don't really blame Criterion for not delving into the UHD format...

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I don't get their opposition to Criterion releasing on UHD-BD - especially if they're not completists. Criterion will continue to release on BD and no one is forcing them to buy it.
Regardless, if it upsets them - I can't see it stopping them from continuing to buy on DVD or BD. Why would it stop them?

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Because so much of their identity is wrapped up in their collections. If it’s not the best, it’s worthless. Not worth continuing.

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Did a lot of Criterion DVD collectors stop buying when Criterion started releasing Blu-Rays?

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I'm so glad I never went down this obsessive path like those folks. That's some scary -- but really just sad -- shit. Toxic fandom/collector mentality at its worst. Most collectors are not like that, I would think. And I say this as someone with a few hundred Criterion discs... I like collecting and watching them, but I can't think of the last time I thought of this stuff as a core part of my identity. I dunno... It's just so... Strange.

As for UHD, I still think they should do it, even though I think Adam expertly explained the multitude of reasons that they're hesitant to do so. Their policy should be that any new additions/remasters with 4K masters should have 4K discs. HDR should only be there if the DP or Director approves. Re-releases of existing titles should be pretty sparse, but high profile titles should be prioritized especially if other labels are doing 4K for those same movies overseas.

And I really don't think Criterion should be catering to the obsessives, as vocal and threatening as they are.

That, or just support 4K on the Criterion Channel. I'd be fine with this, too.

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That's what I was thinking as I was reading everything. This sounds a lot like the discussion with DVD and Blu-ray. I'm sure many swore they wouldn't follow Criterion to Blu-ray.

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They missed a huge opportunity by not releasing Roma as their first UHD disc. That was the one that should’ve been the entry point.

I don’t even care if was just select films that got a UHD version. The other boutiques aren’t doing it for every one and I don’t feel they’d need to. But when CC puts out a disc for stuff like The Elephant Man, Crash, Parasite, etc. that all have UHD releases by other labels (or worse available on Netflix in 4K HDR), it just does not look good.

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

I agree that it doesn't look great. Still, licensing issues would've gotten in the way of some high-profile titles even if Criterion were onboard. Paramount doesn't license out UHD rights, so The Elephant Man and War of the Worlds are non-starters. Warner reportedly doesn't either, which eliminates, say, Crash and Dance Girl Dance. I've only seen this mentioned once and by a less authoritative source, but I've read that Neon doesn't do that either, which means no Portrait of a Lady on Fire or (although Neon's Universal partnership made it irrelevant) Parasite. I don't think it's clear where studios like Disney/Fox, Sony, Lionsgate, or Netflix fall. The titles we've been able to import on UHD are pretty much always because of different rightsholders overseas.

It seems like all of the boutique releases on UHD on these shores were licensed from MGM, Universal, or outside of the American major studios. That still leaves quite a bit of material for Criterion to mine -- The Great Escape is a strong candidate, for instance, and most everything in the Janus library should be fair game -- but I wonder if licensing restrictions are a factor in Criterion's reluctance.

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Criterion’s are typically region locked correct? Is it possible that UHD discs being region free Is posing a licensing problem?

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

I wouldn’t think so, or at least not on a large scale. It’s not deterring any other boutique labels, anyway.

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

I agree 100% with everything Adam said. Sadly, the Criterion fan base has grown quite toxic over the years. Think about how furious collectors got when Criterion had the gall to bundle DVDs and Blu-rays into one SKU, just like most of the major studios do, forcing them to quickly retreat from that practice despite it not significantly affecting MSRP.

Criterion fans are extremely particular about their collections, and obsess over meaningless details like spine numbers and the fold-out style of the booklets. I know a number of Criterion fans who rant about it every single time Criterion packages a disc in a cardboard digipak. Many will even refuse to buy titles that don't come in the standard clear plastic case. The collection has to look uniform on the shelf or it's worthless to them.

Unlike other labels, Criterion can't just dip their toes in the UHD waters with a title or two. The first UHD they release will set a precedent and an expectation that everything must be UHD going forward. Many collectors will stop buying Criterion Blu-rays entirely and wait for UHD editions that may never come.

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I remember there was a time where Criterion was offering traditional (empty) Keepcases with artwork on their website for a few titles that initially had Digipak releases. I believe The 400 Blows was one of them.

Definitely agree with everything both you & Adam Tyner mentioned, adding that a lot of physical media collectors have become toxic over the years as well.

One cruise through the Blu-Ray.com forums is proof of that.

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Not to sound like one of those types – I'm not - my collection' is strictly films I love and revisit; the other 80% of the catalog is available from the library here – but Criterion's digipacks, and often those from other companies, don't always stand up to their shipment methods. I've had creased spines on a few of them (including the original 400 Blows) that required getting replacements of one kind or another. Most recent example: the Karl Zeman set. It's a fantastic example in package design all around, but since Criterion still chooses to ship some orders in bubble envelopes, it got flattened. The replacement case set arrived in a box.

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Criterion collectors may be terrible and picky and whatever, but it's not like Criterion has stopped doing digipacks in order to appease them (those initial 5 or 6 titles aside). The dual format stuff is a different issue, and while I agree there was some percentage of collectors who were irrationally annoyed at the thought of dual format, I think the bigger issue was Criterion's large base of school/library customers. My recollection is that those institutions make up a significant part of their sales and many of them were dvd only and being forced to pay more for the blu-ray copy did not go over well given the budget restrictions many of those institutions face. It was a big enough problem that Criterion made the change back to multiple versions despite the economics being heavily in favor of dual format. In addition to all of the other hurdles I feel like 3 competing formats (that they would be insistent on keeping in print indefinitely) is a bridge too far for them and they don't even want to go down that road.

I'll also add that some of this goes hand in hand with the controversy over Criterion's lack of diversity. Despite being a private, for profit company whose primary goal is to make money, Criterion is seen as this public resource that exists only to enrich society. Somehow it's mission is more vital than any of these other boutique labels. A large piece of that is their own cultivation of that image, but either way it ends up biting them in their own ass when they're unable to do some of the things that the other labels can do because they don't want to ruffle certain feathers.

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

I admit I fell for the Criterion bug for a while there, I've got a ton of titles I bought just because I wanted to be a part of that collecting "thing", though I accepted I would never be "Criterion Complete", I still wanted a good showing.

I recently realized I was buying a lot of their titles that really weren't for me, but I had convinced myself they were something I should be interested in. I wanted to be part of that collecting "thing".

Now each month on the 15th, if the titles don't immediately leap out at me, I just move on.

I'll still grab anything I find at a thrift store - $3 is basically a rental, and if I can watch it, then flip it for a few bucks over that? Well that's just gravy.

But I'll say this about packaging - the Bruce Lee set may look nice once folded out with the poster and all, but the chipboard is of a lower quality than used for other boxsets I own and I'm afraid it will get worn out quicker than others. And then there's the Godzilla set. Yeah, sure, a "big" set for "big" monster, but a really nice box with 13 regular cases and a booklet would honestly look more impressive on my shelf.

So, I kinda get the packaging complaints, but mainly because their packaging hasn't been that great of late.

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Well, it's a damned if you do - damned if you don't scenario for Criterion then.

How many people passed on Criterion's Parasite BD (for example) and bought the 4K release instead? How many people are holding off on buying future Criterion BDs waiting for a studio 4K release? They're losing customers as it is. It's not a good look that the best representation of a film is not being done by Criterion - no matter how much they try to push that narrative. "Director approved" doesn't go very far.

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Couple of thoughts here:

1) I'm not really a fan of any non-standard packinging. I prefer plastic cases of a uniform size that I can easily store and organize on my shelves. An over-sized or odd-sized case needs a special home, and when it comes to my collection, I'd rather be able to maximize my storage space. Take the Godzilla set... I'd have rather had that issued in some kind of boxed set that I can stick on a blu-sized shelf.

2) I'm also not a fan of digipaks. They're fragile, and don't hold up to wear (they scuff easily, warp, crease, etc.) even with gently handling. And don't get me started on how places like Amazon, B&N, and other online sellers want to stick them in a bubble mailer and send them on their merry way to my house...

3) I am unaware of the issue about blu-ray/DVD multipaks; I'm not a hardcore Criterion fan (only buy what interests me) and have both DVDs and blu-rays. It seems like a good way to future-proof releases. They should be able to charge the same $40 standard price for them; any increased costs of including the extra disc should be offset by not needing multiple SKUs. Unless people were angry about the size of packaging (DVD collectors would want a taller, DVD-sized package, while blu-ray collectors would want the smaller standard blu-ray sized package).

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i have no Criterion bug whatsoever. i just get the movies i like/want or those that i'm pretty positive i'd be interested in...

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

From Criterion's blog:



DVDs were $30, and Blu-ray releases were $40. The dual-format releases too were $40, so people who were only interested in DVD had to pay a considerable premium for something they didn't want.

If it were up to me, my approach for Criterion UHD releases would be a UHD/BD combo pack and a separate DVD release. No immediately distinctive packaging. A smaller markup (maybe $5 rather than the $10 between DVD and BD). Treat the UHD disc as part of the package rather than a whole new line. Anti-UHD customers would still be forced to pay a little extra to get a movie on Blu-ray, but a more modest premium wouldn't sting too much, especially since there would be far fewer UHD releases every year rather than dual-format-as-standard-practice.

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Wow, I forgot that it was way back in 2014 when they stopped doing it. I bought at least one of the dual-format sets in the last year or so, so they've still been in circulation.

I'm cool with this strategy, though I'm sure there would be the vocal few complaining that they have to pay $5 extra for something they won't use (UHD) "in this economy" and blah blah blah. But overall, this would totally work for me as a legitimate compromise.

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

That's a great idea, makes perfect sense. Which means we'll never see it.


Wow, that's incredible to think it's 6 years and it's still a hot topic.

Though I still have trouble wrapping my head around the number of people (outside of libraries and such) that were still buying DVD over Blu, especially when dealing with a premium product line.

When I buy new Criterions I always go Blu, any DVDs I'm getting are the ones never released on Blu or used I find cheap.


Out of curiosity, are any of the other boutique labels like Arrow and Shout/Scream, etc still bothering with DVD versions?

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

^ yep. Arrow has DVD-only versions of some of their newest releases on the arrow store.

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Other boutiques are less rigid. Several of them (including Shout/Scream and Arrow) will release some titles on Blu-ray only, some as Blu-ray/DVD combo packs, and others as individual DVD and Blu-ray releases. And some (like Code Red, Shout, and even Kino Lorber) still release some titles exclusively on DVD.

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Janus page added this recently for the eventual WKW set:
https://www.janusfilms.com/film-sets...2fYbX3R984C2AU

No inclusion of 2046. I wonder if it will be in the actual set, but just not part of the retrospective.

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Mondo Macabro still has some titles that are DVD only. Remember that it's not only licensing that these labels have to deal with but available resources. I know Mondo has apparently pointed to a couple of its releases that are unlikely to ever go Blu-ray because original or better elements no longer exist or are lost.

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My County Library (still only doing "curb service" buys all the Criterions, but only on DVD.

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I always remember Criterion DVDs being $40, the same as blu-ray. Did they reduce the DVD prices when they started issuing blu-rays?

I clearly remember the first Criterion DVDs I bought -- Silence of the Lambs, This is Spinal Tap, Robocop -- being $40 MSRP. I bought those three from BestBuy.com during a big holiday DVD sale back in, I think, '98 when they had everything 60% off. I hadn't even bought a DVD player by then, but still dropped a couple hundred bucks on DVDs in anticipation of getting one. I also bought titles like The Big Lebowsi and Boogie Nights as blind buys. The site was also running slow as shit because of the sale, and it took me about a fifteen to thirty minutes to order each title on dial-up. :lol:

In hindsight, I wish had bought more of those early Criterions like The Killer and Hardboiled.

...and crikey, 1998? Has it really been twenty-two years?

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Yes, the DVD prices changed when Blu-ray came out.

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Packaging for The Elephant Man isn’t anything special at all. Super thin digipack housed in a slip case.