re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Anyone who uses the phrase "artsy fartsy" is, by definition, a deeply insecure and self-loathing individual feeling defensive about his low intelligence and horrible taste.

I'm sorry, Gizmo. I don't make these rules. That's just the way things are. :)

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And anyone who uses the epithet "hipster" after having purchased only the most hipster-associated of its target's products has cancelled himself out of the conversation.

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But he probably only likes those movies "ironically".

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hey guys...he liked those movies...BEFORE they were even made

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Artsy Fartsy!

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I would never insist that EVERY film in the CC is great, but I would say that if you can't pick 50 films out their 600+ titles that you personally love and consider great then you simply are not a fan of film.

I don't care if you own 1500 DVD's and go to the theater every Friday night, if you can't pick 50 you would call great you are no film fan and you are possibly an ignoramous.

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While I wouldn't quite go THAT far, I will say that if you are serious about film, the films in the collection are all worth watching at least once, regardless of whether they end up being films you enjoy (in my case, for example, Videodrome, Blow Out, The Night Of The Hunter, etc.) or not (again, in my case, Border Radio, or Armageddon)

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You pretty much said in much nicer words what I posted a couple of pages back. I have yet to find a movie in the collection that I've taken nothing away from watching.

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Seriously, :rolleyes:.

CC is not the be all, end all of important cinema, especially when it comes to films made in the past say 15 years.

Perusing the CC list I've probably seen 70-80 of the films. Maybe 15 of the ones I've seen I'd watch again. I do routinely try out films released by CC based on CC's reputation, but I'm not going to feel obligated to watch something simply because it's become part of the "club".

I will admit I have a hard time connecting with most films I've seen which were produced prior to the mid-70's or so. I'm not sure why this is but it is what it is. But I make it a point to seek out as many non-mainstream films, both foreign and domestic, as I can to make sure I am not stagnating. I own a region-free Blu-ray player for this very reason.

It's quite likely many of my favorite films from the past 15 years could be CC titles. Maybe they will be 40 years from now.

Bottom line is I am into home theater to enjoy film. I like to challenge myself with new films, but I also don't want to lose sight of the types of fun, escapist films I've come to love since childhood. I don't want to feel like I'm going to "school" every time I pick a movie to watch. Balance is key. Maybe some feel they need to see every CC release so they can discuss it in the confines of the "club". IMO that makes you more of a film researcher than a film fan.

To make such a blanket statement about film fans based on an arbitrary number of CC titles viewed or liked is frankly proof of ignorance and gross elitism.

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If you've only seen 70-80 of the movies Criterion has released, I don't think you're qualified to speak on whether or not they're "the be all, end all of important cinema".

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I disagree. Are you arguing they have released every important film? If not, then no, they are not the be all, end all of important cinema. They may be very important to it, but they are not all-inclusive. It would be impossible for them to be.

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Pretty much.

A Criterion film is like sex, even if it's bad, it's still pretty good.

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Best analogy of the year!

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Are you saying that "Threesome" is being released by Criterion?! ;)

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Of course not, but neither was anyone your post was responding to, so if you want to go entirely literal about "be all, end all", it just means that your comment was only a strawman argument in the first place.

So, either you're mounting an absurd defense against a statement that no one is making or you're making a much more reasonable comment, but one that I don't think you're qualified to make as, by your own admission, you've only seen about 10% of the film library you're commenting on the value of.

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No question most Criterion's are certainly worth watching...but probably the more relevant question would be 'is it worth owning?' I own most of their mainstream releases... but I haven't really crossed over from "film collection" to "film library", which is what it'd be if I just start buying a bunch of their films. Take the America BBS set... I've debated all week whether to get it or not. Great value for the films.. I've only seen Easy Rider, which I enjoyed and appreciated. Do I love it in any special way? Not really....so, it's just back to whether I should own a film I merely 'enjoy' or keep it to films I really love.

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I love The Criterion Collection and how well they treat classic films, however I don't think they're the be all end all. Just because they put something out doesn't mean it's worth watching and to tell people they aren't a true fan of film if they don't like a certain number of films out of the collection is ridiculous.

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I wonder if they'll interview Steven Bach, who wrote the excellent Heaven's Gate book The Final Cut. Which, btw, I recently discovered on Amazon went OOP & is now really expensive used. I wonder why the book went OOP. Unless they plan on reissuing it alongside the Criterion release?

FYI, The Final Cut was also made as a TV Documentary, which is (or at least was) uploaded on Youtube. I wonder if this doc would be a bonus feature.

I just hope the release takes all viewpoints into account and doesn't solely act as an apologia for the film. I would love it if the interviews/commentaries/essays were as frank about the film's troubled production as the Caligula Imperial edition.

As for the rest of this thread, I think we should set up a system wherein anyone who uses the word "hipster" should be fined & forced to send a Paypal donation of a certain amount to DVD Talk. And maybe other words like "pretentious" and "overrated".

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No. That's emo. I was emo before hipsters were ironic.

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You can argue this point about any Blu-ray distributor and, if I look at the output of all of them, for me, it's a much higher percentage of Criterion's releases that fall into the "worth owning" category than with any other distributor.

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If you say so.

If Wes Anderson's movies aren't hipster movies, I don't know what are.

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If they can swing that, I hope they will also arrange to sit down with Howard Hawks for a 'Red River' special edition. Maybe Borden Chase also.

I did enjoy the late Bach's book even though I've never seen 'Heaven's Gate.' other than bits and pieces on TV broadcast. Presumably if Criterion did interview him for a rumored HG disk then it happened several years ago.

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The people (Gizmo) that dont like how Criterion consistently releases artsy-fartsy films are just upset that there is no other company similar to Criterion that releases high quality video, audio, extras, cool covers for every release. There is not one company that is like a "Hollywood movie Criterion" company. No one can say, I collect all the Fox and Paramount blu-rays. But there are people that can collect Criterion or Eureka MOC Blurays, because these two companies make a pretty good reason to collect them whether their movies suck or not (once again due to sticking to a particular genre of film and the blurays being high quality video, audio, great extras and amazing packaging).

If that's not the reason, then I dont know why else to be upset over Criterion's choices.

Didnt Criterion make more mainstream movies
on Laserdisc ir VHS? Maybe that's what people are upset over that the company is not following their pattern from the old days?

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Marcel Carné's Children of Paradise is looking like a September Blu-ray release. I read that Janus has completed a 4K restoration and it looks sharp.

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I've been enjoying Wes Anderson films before "hipsters" was even a term.

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I think Criterion needs to use this as their tag line.

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Were you watching films he made as a child? Maybe they're a recent phenomenon in your neck of the woods, but I've lived among hipsters for a lot longer than Wes Anderson has been a filmmaker.

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they also struck a new 35mm print of 'Children' and is/has just played at the Film Forum.

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My statement was more about the fact that while no one may come right out and state it, the prevailing attitude here is one of acting like CC is the "be all, end all." Of course when that question is put to folks directly they won't admit they believe that, but they sure act like it is. Point being you don't have to be a CC disciple to be a fan of film.

Normally I wouldn't even engage in this debate, but I happened to pop in here to see what might be coming out next and I saw Mabuse's statement and felt compelled to reply.

Anyway it's not my intent to come in here and derail things any further. Please feel free to have the last word. No minds will be changed obviously.

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Whoops. Wasn't aware he passed away. [Looks on IMDB] 2009, ah. I humbly acknowledge I made a mistake. Let me rephase: Someone like Steven Bach, but who's still alive & retaining the motor functions necessary for a good interview.

I did see Bach interviewed on the TV documentary version of The Final Cut, on Youtube, but don't know when that was aired. I lose track of time, the joke's on me.

The point I was trying to make was: I'd rather this alleged release acknowledges the troubles of the film, warts and all, rather than glossing over those in favor of one-sided essays proclaiming this a "misunderstood masterpiece". I hope they're not just waiting for former UA employees to die off so it can be a Cimino circle jerk. I tried listening to that guy's commentary on Year of the Dragon... if I was able to stay neutral about him after reading The Final Cut (which is what made me interested in watching Heaven's Gate to begin with), about halfway into the commentary I hated this guy. "I refuse to use storyboards, they're only for directors who have no imagination." At this point I wonder- why the hell am I listening to this guy? In fact, why would anyone take storyboard advice from the guy who really could've used some storyboards on Heaven's Gate? Does he give advice on fiscal responsibility during The Deer Hunter commentary?

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I apologize for the tasteless joke but these are excellent points. I'm not very familiar with Cimino's movies but I have seen 'Deer Hunter.' It's nice to have one more Cazale performance, but I'm not sure why you give final cut and buckets of cash to anyone -- particularly for a fading genre -- based on that movie. Of course hindsight is 20/20 and currently there are no endless rails of blow lined up on my desk.

It has probably been around 20 years since I read the Bach book but I don't recall Cimino coming off very sympathetically. Of course, Cimino's isssues on the HG production were likely a primary contributing factor to the author losing a lucrative studio job; there was probably plenty of score settling involved with its narrative. I'm also sure there may be ego stroking afoot at Criterion if they care about Cimino participation in a HG release. Perhaps the producer of the disk thinks it's not only a misunderstood masterpiece but one of the greatest movies ever made. Maybe no one at Criterion thinks very much at all of the movie but someone (finally) might turn a profit on a HG release due to its cult status and it might as well be them.

There appears to be fewer audio commentaries on Crierion releases these days so perhaps there will be no solo Cimino track, where -- based on your impressions of the YOTD commentary -- he tries to elevate what most seem to think is a deeply flawed movie. Perhaps Cimino is willing to acknowledge problems with the movie and take some responsibility for its failure. Maybe he will just get an on-camera interview, and Criterion will also interview some of the guys who went on to form Orion. I'm sure there are some delicate negotiations based on all the egos and bad blood involved.

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Indeed. However, Hell pretty much froze over when they released that 3-disc Imperial Edition of Caligula. If that's possible, anything is.

Is this real news, though, or just hearsay? You may recall Sony was going to release Ishtar on Blu-ray, but that got yanked. The first time I read that Criterion was going to put out Heaven's Gate, I was wondering whether it was a belated April Fool's joke. "You already made the fake cover for Kindergarten Cop, this is just overkill."

I might be concerned if they do let Cimino supervise the transfer or re-integrate the footage from the 5 hour cut. We don't want to be reading "Cimino bankrupts Criterion!"

At any rate, it's not just the UA suits that have negative things to say about Cimino. There was an AV Club interview with Tom Noonan which pretty much dispelled the notion that the film was a joy for everyone on the creative end. :lol: I guess not everyone had as much fun as Mickey Rourke or Jeff Bridges.

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Frankly I do think they are the "be all end all" in regards to making a great poduct. That's one of the number one things I like about Criterion. I genuinly admire their buisiness practices, their standards, their approach to presenting films the way they were meant to be seen. The very film studios who make many of the films in the collection don't take the care that Criterion does in presenting the film properly and making it a product worth owning. The "Criterion" name on a disc means it's as close to perfect as you're going to get. When I see the name "Universal" or "Paramount" on a disc I know there's a good chance it's going to be of poor quality.

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I won't argue that at all - I agree CC means quality for sure. I just took exception to the notion one can't be a film lover if they don't love a lot of CC films. I don't have any issue with how CC treats or picks their films. I'm thrilled to be getting Being John Malkovich next week.

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Doubtful...the word was used as early as the 1940s. Even the modern version of the word was used in a Smashing Pumpkins song circa 1994. <I>Bottle Rocket</i> wasn't even out until two years later.

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Calling people "hipsters" is a pretty new thing. While the idea (and name) may have existed long before, it's only really been a part of everyday vocabulary to describe someone (glasses, rolled up pants, "ironic", etc.) for a few years (at best). I know it was certainly never a term when I was in High School a decade ago.

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So, you're saying the term didn't exist in everyday vocabulary until you heard of it. Gotcha. ;)

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From my own experiences, I am going to have to agree that 'hipster' is a word that hasn't been used as frequently until recently -- over the past few years. I hear it all the time now but I used to never hear anyone using the word.

I'm not going to try to say the word didn't exist before, but it does seem as though it is much more common today than it ever was before.

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Like it was said. The term has been around for a while but never has it ever been used so goddamn much until post 2000.

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It's quite irrelevant when the term came into popular parlance. The point is that the people with hipster attitudes (whatever you actually call them) surely produce a more circular Venn diagram when paired with Wes Anderson movies than with anything else Criterion offers.

The hipster is to the Wes Anderson movie as the chicken is to the egg.