I got one of my players from value electronics .com
They are highly recommended by many. The reason why they have so many players to sell is that Robert (the owner) took a chance and made a commitment to 1000 A1 and 300 XA1 players (when he saw the $500 price tag at a trade show).

If you think the Tosh is shoddy (in your opinion) then how can you expect the PS3 to be any better for 100 bucks more, but includes a game system, and a new processor as well. If the Samsung had to cut a significant amount of corners at 1,000 exactly how many corners are you going to see cut at 600? It's nice that you have faith in the format, but it's not a deity. It can, and is being fucked up by Sony. I'm not trying to attack you or your product, and I have stated before that I am interested in both. However at this moment I am so excited by what I have been hearing about HD-DVD that I'm about to say fuck paying off my debt, and just piling onto it with a brand new tv and Tosh HD player.

Yes, rereading it now, I see you are correct.

I am not expecting Denon quality from the PS3. Im expecting a good (read: not excellent) BR player that has HDMI 1.3 out, 1080p and is 100% software upgradable (they could make the output look better down the line, MS did it with the xbox 360). This to me at the least surpasses the tosh in a big way.

I also have no drive to go with a HD-DVD due to extreme lack of any good films i'd buy in HD. A couple top tier flicks arent going to make me jump ship (BB, Kong), I want extreme selection which is what BR will deliver in the end with so much support. I already have 2 Plasma TV's (42" Hitatchi and 50" Vizio) and will be purchasing a 1080p set as well in a year or so. I have a lot of patience, and not really seeing any reason to jump in hd-dvd other then if i was desperate for HD content, which i am not.

On the other hand, as HD picks up steam, we might see more studios give it support. However, if Sony can fix their problems with Durabis II, dual-layering, and MPEG 2 (plus PCM), then BD could have a fair chance once the players come down in price.

Don't forget me and others. The Tosh is still worth $100. If the price drops to $100, I'm all over it. The fact that Samsung has managed to charge $1000 for something worth $80 in no way inflates the value of the Tosh.

I don't think I've seen one post on avs, by someone who is in the business on the technical side, or claims to actually have some ties to these companies, that thinks that dual layer Bd 50s are realistic at any point in the near future.
certainly not two months out from here.

Just back in January, at CES, dual layer Bds were promoted as being ready to go during the summer. there is still a two month window here and they aren't even close.

If they were, does anyone honestly think they wouldn't have waited to display a clear & commanding superiority from the start?

ask yourself why would they rush to market with underperforming specs when only 8 weeks or so would have sealed the deal as far as bragging rights?

Not only are we are still in the very early stages of the HD DVD launch- It isn't going to be a 'hard' launch until September- we are entering the doldrums of summer- Peoples attention is not on the latest CE anyway. why does Sony feel the need to counter it now...when the vast majority of people that are even remotely interested are going to take a wait and see apporach anyway?

ascribing this (i.e. the second to market launch of a product that proves on whole immature and inferior to the competition) as just an forehead slapping blunder or a brainfart on the part of Sony seems to me to be fairly naive.

how does an insurgent fight against overhwhelming force?
frustrate and retreat.
repeat ad nauseum.

PC World article: Blu-ray movies hit stores today

Worth a read, especially the statements by Don Eklund, executive vice president of advanced technologies at SPHE.

Going from the precedent we have seen with older Warner films, there is a distinct possibility that movies from the eighties and nineties have been mastered in 1080i. And considering that Sony is equating Blu-ray with 1080p, it is highly likely that they deinterlace those 1080i masters. Will they succeed where Warner failed? We shall see.

A couple of years ago, they expected to launch with dual-layer across the board, so MPEG-2 was a perfectly viable option. The problem is a key element is not ready yet, so the strategy is hobbled. Should they have devised a plan B (such as developing AVC tools just in case)? Probably. But as they say, hindsight is 20/20.

I am not sure what Eklund means by "very low bit rates", probably 12 Mbps or so, which is the latest figure mentioned by Microsoft sources. But admittedly, VC-1 has been able to encode grain correctly at bit rates of "high 15's", according to cjplay. Apollo 13 is an example.

Actually, peak video bitrate available for Blu-ray is even higher than that (40 Mbps going from an interview with Pioneer's Andy Parsons), but they probably can't go that high because of space restrictions. Which takes us to an issue Eklund sidesteps, which is average bitrate. MPEG-2 with an average bitrate of 18 Mbps average is by no means state of the art. It is lower than D-theater tapes, that also used MPEG-2. It is even lower than the bitrate used (with the more efficient VC-1 codec) by some HD DVD titles, such as The Last Samurai (see posts on AVS by sspears and Cjplay). I don't really know whether a 24 Mbps peak with VC-1 is better than a 30 Mbps peak with MPEG-2. Possibly some expert around can qualify. What I do know, from my non-expert point of view, is that looking at average bitrates, 18 Mbps MPEG2 must be much worse than 18.4 VC-1.

Let's remember that the material Sony used for their demo to wow the media was indeed MPEG-2 - but bitrate was consistently 25-30 Mbps. So we know MPEG-2 can look stellar on a huge screen at an average bitrate of about 27 Mbps. However, going from early reviews, it doesn't look nearly as good on a 50-inch screen, when the bitrate used is those 18 Mbps.

True, but there is only so much magic you can do. And as with DVDs today, often something's got to give. Can you fit a 2+ movie on a single-layer DVD? Of course, just look at the first UK edition of Shawshank Redemption. Can it look better with a higher bit budget/average bit rate? Of course, just look at the special edition.

They have done that, but only with their special, high-bitrate demo material. As far as I know, haven't done such a thing with their commercially released discs.

There are also interesting statements on BD-J and bonus materials. Don't miss that. I just wanted to concentrate on video quality.

Which takes me to his closing statement:

On one hand, this remark is positive, because Eklund claims to be aware of the high standards the enthusiasts are going to hold the format to. On the other hand, it shows a blatant disconnect between those good intentions and the reality of the launch. Because if simple AV geeks notice the inferior video quality, it stands to reason that any compressionist worth his salt would have noticed too. And the decision was taken to go ahead anyway with a product doomed to be torn to shreds by its initial market.

The only logical explanation is that this initial title launch is not really for our benefit. It is for internal consumption by the industry. With another format already up and running, they couldn't go to the studios and say they were pushing back the launch for as long as was needed to have dual-layer BD mass production ready. With this launch, Sony is reassuring studios, who might be getting restless supporting what some were already slamming as vapourware.

There is an obvious drawback to that tactic, namely the bad word-of-mouth the picture quality of these initial titles is going to generate. Only a very well-informed person will know that these titles don't look so good because of being MPEG-2 on a single-layer BD; many are likely to think that Blu-ray doesn't really look good. This is likely to cause substantial lost sales.

Sony seems to be using the scenario according to which nothing will be decided during 2006. If this is true, then Blu-ray's initial capacity and codec disadvantage will not matter. But of course, some of Sony's predictions have been wrong in the past.

Bravo, Grubert :clap:. That was very well-written and balanced.

It's a shame that Melissa Perenson couldn't have put as much balance into the original article. Instead, that article reads more like a puff piece at best, or a Sony press release at worst. There were no significant, probing questions about the failings of the first BDs, the lack of dual layer discs for the foreseeable future, or the issues that are surfacing with the Samsung player (such as the 1080p -> 1080i -> 1080p output problem). Just lots of opportunities for Eklund to extol the virtues of Blu-ray.

Just got back from my lunch break. I went to best buy and asked if they had any HD-DVD players in stock. The guy said someone came on Sunday and bought ALL 3: one for himself, 1 for mom and 1 for his sister. ;)

I've been trying to find one at BestBuy with no luck... Although I should probably wait for the generation 2 players (with 1080p and HDMI 1.3), I have a 12% off coupon for BestBuy (thanks to the RZ changes) and some GCs that are just calling me to get it now... haha.

I'll have a HD-DVD player at some point. Normally I don't wait so long for something I want so this is good practice in restraint (and only because I cannot find one at a BB in the Bay Area).

My Best Buy says they only have it as a special order. I called the Magnolia in the same strip mall and they said they got two shipments, both sold out. Since Magnolia is owned by Best Buy, and this Magnolia is standalone, I presume that the players are all being sent to Magnolia. Although I find that a bit weird, since at $500, the players aren't exactly exorbitant, and I know tons of people who don't go into Magnolia because they think it's a super-high-end store. They did say they were getting the Samsung, though.

Edit: Amazon does have the RCA one for sale. I heard that it is functionally the same as the Toshiba and even accepts the same firmware upgrades. Is this true? It doesn't seem to be selling nearly as well as the Toshiba.

Thanks for the compliment. :)

To be fair, it's not always easy to see for reporters to see through the barrage of data industry reps throw at them. All the figures are technically correct. Only if you've done your homework will you notice you aren't being told the whole story.

We see that a lot: talk up your strengths as much as possible, and minimize/obfuscate your weaknesses. If it's corporate reps doing it, it's spin. If it's regular people, it's fanboyism.

The problem is, industry insiders by definition have much more information than we do, so it is often difficult to call bullshit on what they say. And this goes also for HD DVD representatives. :hairpull:

BTW I still think Blu-ray is going to be (note verb tense) the best format. I just hope Sony reassesses its encoding/mastering policy, and gets BD50 soon.

Well, BD still has the better specs on paper. But they need to get their head out of their ass and use something other than MPEG 2 and PCM.

Thedigitalbits' Bill Hunt has just posted his first impressions on the Samsung player and first titles (2 Sony and 2 LGF).

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

Does anybody still think he has a pro-BD, anti-HD DVD bias?

Good read, although hes stating nothing we dont already know.

This is one of the first, if not the first, complete review outside of a message board, though. Likely to get a lot more eyeballs.

Considering Bill and the website are mentioned in Entertainment Weekly this week. ;)

Not true at all....I havent been keeping up with the performance of the Sammy....I only knew of the poor quality of the Fifth Element.

So, it was news to me and im sure there are alot of people who read that site that dont follow this like we do.

I noticed he metioned that the BD of Crash contains 0 features. If LionsGate turns out to be the studio that will release HD DVD, then I wonder if we'll get what's on the current 2-disc version. I don't see why not, since Warners has done that with their old 2-discers. This would piss off some BD owners, I would think.

Well...the problem is that there's not room for extras on the BD discs. On HD DVD, there would be.

Thats why im wondering why studios are even willing to release subpar releases on BD!! Maybe for the most part, they are not and thats why we havent heard of any WB, Disney or some other BD backers release list.

Its like we are taking 2 steps foward (in terms of pq/aq) but one step back (lack of special features) for BD. Ridiculous.

Sony needs to fix this ASAP or they are going to lose this battle. I dont think studios will take this lightly.

If its not fixed sometime this fall, then I think it will be a huge boost for HD-DVD.

It's so funny how so many people were so convinced that BR would be better simply because their discs would have more space than HD DVD's, when in reality the opposite turned out to be the case.

Well, when they actually get around to using the discs with more space it may end up being true, but I doubt Blu-ray will ever have a major advantage over HD DVD. I'm guessing movies at 35mbps on Blu-ray will be better than those at 18mbps on HD DVD, but until I can see that proven I'm not buying it.

The bits remarks mention that both formats are rushed to market.

While that appears to be true, I think HD-DVD got it right. While I'm sure there will be improvements with time, I'm very happy with the product they're producing right now. The number one priority is PQ and they're delivering in spades, right now, today.

Obviously the same can't be said for BR (Beta-Ray?)