Comic Book Talk The Place to talk about Comics

Biggest Batman News in Decades

Old 07-22-18, 03:32 PM
  #126  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
PhantomStranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Phantom Zone
Posts: 21,870
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Originally Posted by Red Hood View Post
Spoiler for issue #54

Spoiler:

It seems the rumors of Nightwing going back to being Batman are more close to becoming true. The cover for issue #54 is out and it's a split image of Batman and Dick Grayson as Robin on one side and on the other other Dick as Nightwing (with the blue suit). This kind of hints at the evolution of Dick, which will probably lead to him being back under the Batman suit.
Supposedly Bruce Wayne...

Spoiler:
Gives up being Batman for a very long stretch, possibly a full year, in the aftermath of Selina dumping him. I'm off this train, so King can do whatever he wants. Everything is going to get retconned by the next writer anyway.


In other news, everyone should be excited about Grant Morrison's year-long Green Lantern series.
PhantomStranger is offline  
Old 07-22-18, 04:58 PM
  #127  
DVD Talk Legend
 
stingermck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: NC
Posts: 15,277
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

I'll read Batman till I die. I've seen it all come and go. No one creator is going to force me off, and despite drama behind #50, I still like King's writing.
stingermck is offline  
Old 07-23-18, 02:01 PM
  #128  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
PhantomStranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Phantom Zone
Posts: 21,870
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Originally Posted by stingermck View Post
I'll read Batman till I die. I've seen it all come and go. No one creator is going to force me off, and despite drama behind #50, I still like King's writing.
King has had his ups and downs on Batman. Some of it good, some of it not so good. I'm not forsaking Batman or anything, merely taking a break from the book for awhile.
PhantomStranger is offline  
Old 07-24-18, 09:42 PM
  #129  
DVD Talk Legend
 
stingermck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: NC
Posts: 15,277
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Lee and Dido on #50

Spoiler for length

Spoiler:

io9: I want to talk about Batman #50 a little bit. I’ve seen reports that it sold well, despite all the outcry. Do you feel like there’s anything you would have done differently about the messaging? Because people were expecting an actual wedding...

DiDio: I never expected an actual wedding.

Lee: But you knew what was going to happen!

io9: There was a sense of betrayal or bait-and-switch, on the part of some readers. How can you address that in a way that doesn’t necessarily make people feel like they’re taken for granted?

Lee: I can’t remember if they got married or not, but remember the Fantastic Four? The wedding of Reed and Sue Richards? I don’t know if they got married at the end of it, but—

DiDio: They did.

Lee: They did? Whenever I read wedding issues as a kid, it was always framed as a question of “will it happen or not?” Like, “villains allowing our heroes to live in happiness? Is that something that could possibly happen?” And that was some of the feedback we were getting from the fans before the issue even printed. Either “oh my god, it’s going to kill me if [Batman and Catwoman] don’t get married,” or “there’s no way it will happen.” So, I felt like other people shared that same “would it happen or not” sensibility. It’s like an issue [where] we say two characters are “fighting to the death,” right? You’re setting up this expectation, hyping up this story, and then the purpose of reading it is to find out what happens. Right?

I think we could have done a better job of parsing the words better. But, at the end of the day, we heard what the retailers said and we made the books returnable. Most of the commentary we got back from the retailers was, “we appreciate the support, we sold out.” We recognize that we can separate the two. We can separate the sales from the information that was given, and whether they felt like they were given all the information they needed to make the proper choices. It’s almost immaterial whether they sold out or not; I understand that’s where they’re coming from. From that standpoint, we’re happy to make the books returnable and do an internal review going forward. The questions are “how do we message things like this?” and “are there ways to make it clearer?”

I’ll tell you, I drew one of the variant covers and it’s Batman touching Catwoman in the rain. They’re clearly crying. It’s a sad image. And I even thought, “Oh my God, am I giving it away? Is it giving away too much?” I actually ran it by Tom and said, “Hey, do you think this is tipping our hand too much?” He was cool with it, but I felt for sure after that went out I was giving away the story. And so, again, it kind of shows you perhaps—for me, personally speaking—we had a blind spot towards what was written and what I expected out of a story like that, and I understand that people don’t share that same point of view…

DiDio: Yeah, I mean, I have a couple opinions on that. You asked about us taking the audience for granted; actually, if you want to be perfectly honest, I think the audience took the story for granted. For me, it’s about the journey. To explore the issues in the story.

We’re not as interested in a married Batman. We’re interested in a story about a Batman who is anticipating being married, trying to live a normal life. We constantly go back to the Batman family, the level of tragedy that’s been thrown at them and what drives them. The most interesting thing that I heard was that, [some fans] wanted the wedding to happen because they wanted Batman to be happy. I understand that but, to me, a happy Batman is the end of Batman. Our story is about the drama and the challenges he’s facing, and I think there’s no greater story about a hero—about someone who puts his own personal interests aside in order to move on and help others. That’s the hero’s journey. Batman’s our greatest hero in so many ways. And it’s important for him to understand that, and he’s constantly putting the tragedy of his parents’ deaths as a motivating force and a driving force, where he puts the life of Bruce Wayne aside. We got a glimpse of his [future] life for a moment and a chance to see what it might look like.

But the reality is, married Batman is an Elseworlds Batman, to me. You know? They did that in Earth-2. We’ve done these stories. And people who anticipated that all said the same thing. Did you really think Superman was going to stay dead after Superman #75? Where’s the challenge there? So, my standpoint is that, I think that Tom has a really long plan for Batman, he really does have a hundred issues figured out. And this is just part of that journey. And it’s a turning point. That’s what’s important. And a story is judged, not by how that story is told, but how it effects future stories. And the future stories because of this moment I think are going to be much stronger because of how this issue played out rather than any other way it was going to be told.
stingermck is offline  
Old 07-25-18, 12:57 AM
  #130  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 27,503
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

I understand what they're trying to say, I just think they're saying it the wrong way. Especially this:

DiDio: Yeah, I mean, I have a couple opinions on that. You asked about us taking the audience for granted; actually, if you want to be perfectly honest, I think the audience took the story for granted. For me, it’s about the journey. To explore the issues in the story.
So basically sorry, not sorry. Sorry you felt that way, but I doubt we'll do anything differently next time because you should know better than to expect any kind of truth in advertising. Plus sales are great!

I'm not sure what it says about Jim Lee that he didn't even realize Reed and Sue got married in that issue.
fujishig is offline  
Old 07-25-18, 03:19 AM
  #131  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,583
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Originally Posted by fujishig View Post
I understand what they're trying to say, I just think they're saying it the wrong way. Especially this:

I'm not sure what it says about Jim Lee that he didn't even realize Reed and Sue got married in that issue.
It read like he didn't know whether Reed and Sue ever got married. I can't believe he wouldn't know that.
I know that and I've read maybe...two issues of Fantastic Four my whole life. Marvel is known for marriages like Reed Richards/Sue Storm, Peter Parker/Mary Jane, and Cyclopes/Jean Grey. Plus, Jim Lee wrote and illustrated Heroes Reborn Fantastic Four.

Maybe Jim Lee is continuing with the play-dumb-defense because it's worked for him in the past. Supposedly he had no idea Alan Moore and DC had a falling out when he sold Wildstorm and ABC Comics to DC.

He mentions surprise that readers didn't anticipate that Batman and Catwoman might not get married and cites "fighting to the death" storylines from the 60s and 70s where the main character might die, but doesn't.

Nevermind that the biggest storylines since the 80s actually follow through with these things, complete with a big media promotional event:
Spider-man getting married in the comics and comic strip, and even had a live-action tie in at Shea Stadium.

Superman really died in Superman #75, and came packaged with a black arm band.

Batman really got his back broken at the end of the Knightfall storyline.

Superman really did get married to Lois Lane.

Jim Lee thinks comic readers are stupid.

Originally Posted by Dan DiDio
actually, if you want to be perfectly honest, I think the audience took the story for granted. For me, it’s about the journey. To explore the issues in the story.
That's pretty condescending.
I get the journey-IS-the-destination thing. But when you hype this particular story ending a certain way, not following through distracts from the so-called journey.
If it was about the journey, focus on the journey, and not the destination that never arrives.

We’re not as interested in a married Batman. We’re interested in a story about a Batman who is anticipating being married, trying to live a normal life.
Then don't do the bullshit gimmick covers. Focus on the story and not trying to rip-off readers by convincing them to buy multiple issues of the same story.



But the reality is, married Batman is an Elseworlds Batman, to me. You know? They did that in Earth-2. We’ve done these stories. And people who anticipated that all said the same thing.
This is true. I said that in this thread I think.

Did you really think Superman was going to stay dead after Superman #75? Where’s the challenge there?
And that was a crap story. The only selling point of that story was that Superman actually died. But the "journey" was boring as hell.
brayzie is offline  
Old 07-25-18, 07:21 AM
  #132  
DVD Talk Legend
 
stingermck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: NC
Posts: 15,277
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

IMO Dido has been a real dumb ass since day one. DC would be a lot better with him working at Cinnabon instead.
stingermck is offline  
Old 07-25-18, 08:02 AM
  #133  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 576
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Originally Posted by stingermck View Post
Lee and Dido on #50

Spoiler for length

Spoiler:


The two assholes should know that this is the exact same shit Dallas(tv) pulled, when Pam woke up and found Bobby in the shower.
ddrknghtrtns is offline  
Old 07-25-18, 08:05 AM
  #134  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 27,503
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

I'd say in both Superman's death and Batman's broken back, the better stories were not the journey there but the journey afterwards. I'm not sure either holds up but the Reign of the Supermen and Knightfall were, at the time, great. That's the big difference here, the event happened and then the fallout is dealt with. Maybe readers are interested in a married Batman and how he deals with that.

Now maybe King deals with the fallout of this failed marriage in a great way. In fact, I'm almost certain he does, and I'm even more sure Joelle Jones will do a great job on Catwoman. But if the readers are ticked off, they won't read it. If Superman nearly died by Doomsday, I doubt people would read about him dealing with his own mortality.

I recall they did some of this same garbage with Green Arrow and Black Canary (who had a wedding special), except somehow they actually got married later and then split up because of that horrid Cry for Justice mini fallout. But nobody was reading DC at the time so nobody cared, and then they retconned it for new 52.
fujishig is offline  
Old 07-25-18, 02:12 PM
  #135  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
PhantomStranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Phantom Zone
Posts: 21,870
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Lee and Didio are happy with #50 because they perhaps suggested the failed wedding in the first place. Going by scuttlebutt, Jim Lee and Dan Didio didn't like that DC fans really loved Rebirth, a new direction entirely spearheaded by Geoff Johns. It's why the minute Johns had to step away from DC comics to focus on Hollywood stuff, Bendis takes a wrecking ball to the past three years of Superman and we get this disastrous wedding stunt.

Jim Lee and Dan Didio were all in on the New 52 reboot. It was only as sales waned and corporate started getting antsy did that get dropped.
PhantomStranger is offline  
Old 07-25-18, 02:17 PM
  #136  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 27,503
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
Lee and Didio are happy with #50 because they perhaps suggested the failed wedding in the first place. Going by scuttlebutt, Jim Lee and Dan Didio didn't like that DC fans really loved Rebirth, a new direction entirely spearheaded by Geoff Johns. It's why the minute Johns had to step away from DC comics to focus on Hollywood stuff, Bendis takes a wrecking ball to the past three years of Superman and we get this disastrous wedding stunt.

Jim Lee and Dan Didio were all in on the New 52 reboot. It was only as sales waned and corporate started getting antsy did that get dropped.
If true, what an utterly asinine way to run a company.
fujishig is offline  
Old 07-28-18, 07:53 AM
  #137  
DVD Talk Legend
 
stingermck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: NC
Posts: 15,277
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

I met Tom King yesterday at a con. Super cool guy. He said the NYT was not supposed to spoil the issue and the writer contacted him directly and apologized.
stingermck is offline  
Old 07-28-18, 09:18 AM
  #138  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Red Hood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 5,300
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Originally Posted by stingermck View Post
I met Tom King yesterday at a con. Super cool guy. He said the NYT was not supposed to spoil the issue and the writer contacted him directly and apologized.
Side note, how was the con? I saw that is mostly pop culture but I'm wondering to see if its worth going if you are mostly into comic books.
Red Hood is offline  
Old 07-28-18, 08:05 PM
  #139  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
PhantomStranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Phantom Zone
Posts: 21,870
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Originally Posted by Red Hood View Post
Side note, how was the con? I saw that is mostly pop culture but I'm wondering to see if its worth going if you are mostly into comic books.
Are any of the cons about comic books anymore?
PhantomStranger is offline  
Old 07-29-18, 05:51 PM
  #140  
DVD Talk Legend
 
stingermck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: NC
Posts: 15,277
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
Are any of the cons about comic books anymore?
Yes, Heroes con is still 100% comics and you can rack up some crazy deals over a weekend.

Super was cool, I went last year as well, their first show in Raleigh. It is more pop stuff, there was only 5-6 comic dealers. But their comic guest list was great. King, Starlin, Grummett, DeMattis, Hama, David, Bachalo, Grell, Giffen, etc etc. I got a lot of great signatures.
stingermck is offline  
Old 07-29-18, 09:23 PM
  #141  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 3,374
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
It's why the minute Johns had to step away from DC comics to focus on Hollywood stuff, Bendis takes a wrecking ball to the past three years of Superman and we get this disastrous wedding stunt.
I'm only reading collections and I've been happy with the last year or two of the Superman titles. What has Bendis done with "Superman"? (I don't mind spoilers).

Last edited by DWilson; 07-30-18 at 06:29 AM.
DWilson is offline  
Old 07-30-18, 01:11 AM
  #142  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,583
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Originally Posted by fujishig View Post
I'd say in both Superman's death and Batman's broken back, the better stories were not the journey there but the journey afterwards. I'm not sure either holds up but the Reign of the Supermen and Knightfall were, at the time, great.
Really?
I didn't like them.
I only collected Knightfall because I thought it was going to be valuable like The Death of Superman issues. The art and story in those issues was mediocre in my opinion.
Once Knightquest started I checked out, and didn't come back to Batman till the very excellent and very atmospheric Kelley Jones and Doug Moench run.

Reign of the Supermen was okay, but I'll admit the gimmick was pretty smart. 4 different Superman-like characters starring in the Superman titles. We even got Superboy back.
brayzie is offline  
Old 07-30-18, 09:58 AM
  #143  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Red Hood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 5,300
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Originally Posted by stingermck View Post
Yes, Heroes con is still 100% comics and you can rack up some crazy deals over a weekend.

Super was cool, I went last year as well, their first show in Raleigh. It is more pop stuff, there was only 5-6 comic dealers. But their comic guest list was great. King, Starlin, Grummett, DeMattis, Hama, David, Bachalo, Grell, Giffen, etc etc. I got a lot of great signatures.
I go to Heroescon every year, so that's my standard of what a comic con should be. Baltimore Comic Con is pretty close to that too, but they have added pop culture guest to it too.

The reason there's only 5-6 comic book dealers at the Supercon is because Ultimate Comics threatened every dealer with banning them from NC Comic Con if they set up at the Supercon. Ultimate feels that the triangle is their territory and no one else besides them can set up shop.

Originally Posted by DWilson View Post
I'm only reading collections and I've been happy with the last year or two of the Superman titles. What has Bendis done with "Superman"? (I don't mind spoilers).
Spoiler:

In a nutshell, Bendis created a Lobo clone called Rogol Zaar, who is now the one responsible for destroying Krypton. In addition, Zaar destroyed the fortress of solitude, including the bottle city of Kandor and everyone in it. Bendis also got rid of Jonathan Kent, Jor-El and Lois Lane by sending them to space to explore and learn. Basically, he took all the goodwill that Superman's books got in the past two years and threw them to the garbage.



I've never understood Bendis appeal. Besides Alias and Ultimate Spider-Man, all his books have sucked. He took over on Guardians of the Galaxy and made them a boring ass team that was completely different in tone to the amazing Abnett and Lanning run that led to the awesome movies we've seen. He screwed the X-Men even more than anyone could imagine and then shitted on the Stark legacy by making Tony not be Howard and Maria's kid. I don't know why he's critically acclaimed cause he's writing is not good at all.
Red Hood is offline  
Old 07-30-18, 10:46 AM
  #144  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 27,503
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Well, I liked Bendis's Powers, and while it gets some hate I thought his run on New Avengers was fine, and he basically brought Luke Cage to some prominence. But after a while the dialogue gets a little samey, and yeah that Superman description looks like crap to me.

Oh and his Daredevil run was great as well.
fujishig is offline  
Old 07-30-18, 10:54 AM
  #145  
DVD Talk Legend
 
stingermck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: NC
Posts: 15,277
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Originally Posted by Red Hood View Post
The reason there's only 5-6 comic book dealers at the Supercon is because Ultimate Comics threatened every dealer with banning them from NC Comic Con if they set up at the Supercon. Ultimate feels that the triangle is their territory and no one else besides them can set up shop.
That's hilarious!

Durham NCCC is OK, but is too big for that space they keep using, and its impossible to walk around in. Bull was decent this year I guess. I go, but neither one blows my skirt up.

Super brings in so many people though. More people this year were talking about Super then Heroes and certainly more than NCCC.
stingermck is offline  
Old 07-30-18, 12:50 PM
  #146  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Red Hood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 5,300
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Originally Posted by stingermck View Post
That's hilarious!

Durham NCCC is OK, but is too big for that space they keep using, and its impossible to walk around in. Bull was decent this year I guess. I go, but neither one blows my skirt up.

Super brings in so many people though. More people this year were talking about Super then Heroes and certainly more than NCCC.
This is the second year for SuperCon and so far I've seen this year was an incredible success but it's mostly because it does what Heroescon doesn't, which is bring celebrities to bring new generations of fans. I'm a comic book guy, so I prefer Heroescon but I almost went to Supercon to meet Kevin Conroy, Mick Foley, DDP and the Karate Kid/Cobra Kai crew.

In my opinion, NC Comiccon has been getting worse and worse. Their spring show in Raleigh had too much space and was practically empty due to the lack of vendors. Their fall show in Durham had a better attendance this year due to Rob Liefeld being there, but other than that, it only had around 12-15 vendors and not a lot of notable guests. I know the ticket for both NC Comicons is too expensive for what they are and when you compare them to Heroescon or Supercon, but the lack of guests is also another hot topic. Many notable creators have told me that Ultimate Comics asked them 2 years ago to sign exclusivity contracts. Basically it was an all or nothing deal in which these creators were told that if they signed the contracts, they coouldn't go to any other show or store in NC for a calendar year. Basically, they would be exclusives to Ultimate Comics shows and stores, Greensboro Comic Con, a comic con in Winston-Salem, Arkham Comix, Saalefish Comics, and Acme Comics.
Red Hood is offline  
Old 07-30-18, 01:52 PM
  #147  
DVD Talk Legend
 
stingermck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: NC
Posts: 15,277
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

I'm just going to keep derailing here because this is a topic of interest for me. Its fascinating that Ultimate is trying to strong arm here in NC. Because both of their shows are average. That does explain why they have the same (average) guest every year.

I agree with the Spring show for NCCC. I almost left empty handed until I found a good dealer right before I left. Too much space there and not enough for the Fall show in Durham. I just checked ticket prices for the Fall. They really think they are big timing now.

I also went to Super last year for their first show, and on Saturday the line to get in was wrapped around all 4 sides of the convention center. NCCC has never had that problem. If I was a dealer, I’d tell them to fuck off and take the ban. So many more people attending Super.

Heroes is still my favorite, but they could learn a thing or two from Super. The market is changing and people want more pop in their cons. Plus I got many more comic sigs this weekend at Super then I did at Heroes last month. Heroes guest list was lacking in terms of big names and they seem to be going for quantity over quality.

Also the night life stuff that Super has, basically keeping the con going until 1, 2AM was great and a welcome change as well.

Attending Heroes and Super is a good 1,2 combo though, and covers a lot of current fandom.

My opinion of NCCC has taken a hit for sure.
stingermck is offline  
Old 07-30-18, 03:00 PM
  #148  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
PhantomStranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Phantom Zone
Posts: 21,870
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Originally Posted by DWilson View Post
I'm only reading collections and I've been happy with the last year or two of the Superman titles. What has Bendis done with "Superman"? (I don't mind spoilers).
Besides what Red Hood mentioned...

Spoiler:
Lots of rumors flying around that he's planning to put Superman's marriage on a break for the time being and that Jon Kent is going to be aged up and return as a much older, edgier character. This includes Superman dating around Metropolis with several new characters. It's a run that is already shaping up to be retconned or ignored the moment Bendis leaves the book.


The art is good on the current Superman books.

Prepare yourself Bat fans - rumors also indicate Bendis may be given the main Bat book after Tom King's run ends.
PhantomStranger is offline  
Old 07-30-18, 03:24 PM
  #149  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 27,503
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Was Bendis a poison pill Marvel sent in to stop DC's momentum or something?
fujishig is offline  
Old 07-31-18, 10:18 AM
  #150  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Red Hood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 5,300
Re: Biggest Batman News in Decades

Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
Besides what Red Hood mentioned...

Spoiler:
Lots of rumors flying around that he's planning to put Superman's marriage on a break for the time being and that Jon Kent is going to be aged up and return as a much older, edgier character. This includes Superman dating around Metropolis with several new characters. It's a run that is already shaping up to be retconned or ignored the moment Bendis leaves the book.


The art is good on the current Superman books.

Prepare yourself Bat fans - rumors also indicate Bendis may be given the main Bat book after Tom King's run ends.
That new rumor is the DC Comics equivalent of
Spoiler:
the One More Day storyline Marvel did with Spider-Man. And that sucked the life of the title and character for years.
Red Hood is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.