Drexl, see my post above.

You're going to see a lot of different form factors.

What in the holy fuck did I just read? When was the last time you built a PC? 1997?

There's a slew of Mini-ITX cases that are physically smaller than most consoles. With the right parts and configuration, one can have a powerful machine with minimal size. Not only can any Intel i3/i5/i7 or AMD processor work just fine on a Mini-ITX board, but Asus and other companies have already been building high-end graphics cards specifically for the smaller boards during the past year.

On the flip side, there's laptop graphics cards (like the newly released Nvidia 780M) that demolish their desktop based equivalents. If there are "SteamBox" models that are non-upgradeable, I see this being a viable option. Why have a gigantic tower when I can rock a 4GB graphics card in something extremely small? Speaking of which, have you seen the 2013 Mac Pro? It'll have the same specifications (if not better) in regards to processing power like past generations, but also will rock dual GPUs and PCIe flash storage. You know how big the thing is? The size of Apple's latest Airport Extreme and Time Capsule devices. The thing will rock most PCs and is physically no bigger than the external hard drive currently sitting on my desk. Granted, that Mac Pro will probably cost at least a minimum of five times more than the cheapest "SteamBox," but size is no longer an issue.

You also have to remember any sort of "SteamBox" will most likely not have any optical drive allowing for either better or more hardware... or just space for the unit to breath.

If Valve is going for the living room, nobody wants a full or mid size ATX case sitting there. That option might be more cost effective, but it won't get them anywhere close. At the minimum, I don't see any Steam-certified box using bigger than a Micro-ATX case. If the Piston was any consideration, it's go small or go home.

The CPUs shouldn't be a problem, especially if they go with a laptop processor (Which is underpowered compared to its desktop equivalent, but should be fine for most games, and they stay cooler.)

The graphics card may be an issue though, Desktop ones are huge, and great laptop ones (like the aforementioned 780M) are great but you end up paying nearly 2x as much for half the power (of the Desktop equivalent, tho not in the 780's case since that's like a $700 Desktop card)

This was the initial speculation for the "Steam Box":

To be fair, there are great desktop processors that are cost effective if the primary functionality is gaming. Most of AMD's eight-core processors can be found for under $200 (if not less) now. If they opt to go with laptop processors, there could be the ability to over clock them due to the fact there will be dedicated power supplies and (probably) cooling units inside them. A lot of laptop processors are under clocked due to these specific reasons (if not more, like battery life and performance).

I would prefer Valve to come out and give a minimum hardware list for what will be determined to be Steam certified. If they're opting to take the living room, I'd rather have specific parts be upgradable like RAM and storage rather than the whole unit being upgradable. I'd rather shell out more upfront for a better processor and graphics card and be able to upgrade to more RAM or an SSD in the future when money and time permit.

There was a cost to being able to get that much performance into that small of a case. For instance, those dual GPU's are actually soldered directly onto the motherboard. So much for upgradability! Pretty sweet though.

I'd say size is a less of an issue, but hardly no longer an issue. It took awhile for the Asus Direct CU Mini GTX 670 to come out and even then you're looking at a $300+ part.

With different form factors and manufacturers with different spec, I can only assume that new games are going to be rated for certain specs and automatically launch with certain settings?

Let's say you solder two 4GB 780M chips onto the motherboard (which won't happen as Apple has already confirmed AMD GPUs inside the Pro). Honestly, when would you need to upgrade the video card? You'll be ready to get a new one by that time. Apple has already confirmed that the PCIe flash storage in the unit is user installable. Just give me 16GB of RAM and kick-ass GPUs and I'll sell my iMac in a heartbeat and purchase a Mac Pro instead.

Again, I wish Valve would just come out and state what they would like the minimal hardware requirements to be. I wonder if we won't know until Source 2 is more towards completion...

I'm confused, why are you talking about 780's? I love how you are defending the fact that you can't upgrade the GPU's in that setup, as if that's a good thing. So, what happens if one of the chips dies? Or, say in in a couple years, you decide you'd like a new GPU but don't need a new CPU (my graphics board in my HTPC has been upgraded through three generations, while my CPU has remained the same, since most games are GPU limited still at 1920x1080).

Obviously you know more than the rest of us about what's going on, flashburn. Sorry if I misunderstood. But whatever the case may be, if this finally standardizes gaming on PC so we can avoid odd issues here and there, I'm all for it.

No biggie. Just trying to help people understand what's going on without saying anything I shouldn't.

Unfortunately, I think in the end, this won't help standardize PC hardware at all when it comes to gaming. However, it's less of an issue than it was years ago. Removing Windows from the equation would be a great thing for gaming, and this is coming from someone who hates Linux.

Great in theory, not so much in practice though, right? Since removing Windows from the equation means either segregating PC gaming from the other PC capabilities that casual people enjoy, or having to ensure SteamOS is capable of tasks other then gaming. That's why i'm iffy...

I guess I should rephrase what I said before. It might not standardize PC hardware, but it may standardize PC gaming hardware (at least when it comes to SteamOS). They aren't looking to create a device that does anything other than media related functionality. We are talking end game here, what we are all seeing is the initial phase of SteamBox/SteamOS. A test run, so to speak. We all know that the idea of everyone owning desktop PC is going to go the way of the dodo at some point, so they are just trying to prepare for that.

I'm using the 780M as just a theoretical example as:

• It's the latest chips from Nvidia for mobile, dedicated graphics. They're also the most powerful to date (i.e. 4GB DDR5) on the market for mobile architecture.
• If a "Steambox" ends up using mobile architecture, who better now to supply the chips than Nvidia?

Here's why I'm also defending the GPUs being non-removable in a mobile setup:

• More people tend to purchase laptops over desktops. When a GPU dies on a laptop, you have to replace the entire board. If my laptop is under an extended warranty, fantastic. If it isn't? I'm going to end up purchasing a new laptop.
• I would also argue that electronics are becoming much more of a common place unit to replace as technology gets cheaper, faster, and smaller. Just look in Tech Talk, most of us are replacing our phones and tablets every year or so (if not less). If you bought a television a decade or two ago, you would keep it for a decade or two. Now the average consumer upgrades their television every few years or less.
• Which then asks the next question, how often does one purchase their "next" computer? As someone like myself who does constant video work, I need to have the best hardware and software at my disposal. I tend to "future proof" whatever I purchase to last me the next few years. That requires me to upgrade the processor and graphics card alongside getting an extended warranty. When the warranty is getting close to expiring, that's when I sell the computer and just purchase a new one. However, in terms of desktops, I've gone through about five in the past decade so I'm clearly the exception to the rule. My wife had her Sony Vaio since 2006 before we just bought her a maxed out MacBook Air a month or two ago. Was the Vaio still useable? Yes, but for what she needed to do, she's been struggling for the past year or two.
• With the previous-generation consoles (360 and PS3), the manufacturers wanted a ten-year lifespan. The 360 and PS3 have been out now for almost seven-to-eight years with non-removable hardware outside of the hard drives. As we move into the next-generation, the manufacturers have the same goal in mind. While we've seen games like Grand Theft Auto V that have pushed the consoles to their absolute limit, they've also been strained by the limited hardware inside the machine. That's why we're embarking on the next-generation this year. There's obviously going to be a place and time where the hardware you're using is going to be null in void and you'll need to do a lot more than just purchase a new GPU. That's why there needs to be strict requirements if there's a certification process.

While I'm glad Valve is trying to make movement in the hardware world, I don't know if this is the right way of doing it. There's going to be fragmentation and consumers are going to get confused. You'll have Steam Machines that'll simply just stream your games from your PC to your television for $99 and then you'll have everything from low-end to high-end units out there in the wild to purchase. At that point, why not just buy or build a computer that meets what you need to do it for? While I love Valve, I feel this is going to be a niche item more than a device that people need and want.

And again, I ask the question, who the fuck wants a gigantic PC in their entertainment center? I already have a 360, PS3, Wii U, and AppleTV alongside my cable modem and wireless router there. The last thing I need is an ugly black box as tall as my entertainment center sitting next to it. I wan't something that's powerful and meets my needs (both internally and externally). As I mentioned numerous times in this forum over numerous years, the next-generation should be able to do two things:

• All games are native 1920 x 1080.
• All games run 60 fps.

For 99% of the games that are out there on the market, you don't need an eight-core processor with a 4GB DDR5 GPU to meet those two requirements. The game I play the most on my computer is Team Fortress 2. I'm able to play that at 2560x1440 at 60fps (I cap it at 60fps for performance, but it can handle about 120fps+) and I'm rocking a two-year-old Sandy Bridge quad-core i7 and a 1GB DDR5 GPU. I do get that as engines and systems improve, better hardware is needed. I personally would like the best hardware out the door and if I'm treating a "Steambox" like a computer, the odds are I'm going to be buying a new one in two-to-three years anyway.

With what we've seen so far, I feel this is going to hinder PC gaming more than it helps it. There's clearly more that you know, but I don't know if Valve is doing the best job advertising the benefits to consumers right now.

So we already know "next-gen" being PS4 and Xbox One won't be able to run all games in 1920x1080 @ 60 fps. But with a Steam Box at least you can manually scale your settings to make it happen.

I don't have faith that desktop PC's are going anywhere anytime soon I don't know what could get standardized though, unless Valve is fairly strict on their partners; just "Steam" certified levels of graphics cards and performance type of thing?

Meanwhile, satisfied all the requirements for the beta. Yay!

I have no friends so I can't be part of the beta.

Yeah. They can run at 900p and be upscaled to 1080p.

I satisfied all of the requirements for the beta too! When I qualified, there was just shy of 65K. Now there's over 100K people qualified.

There are a few things that could get standardized in regards to Valve's qualifications for the machines. For example:

• Processors. Valve could state that if you're using an Intel processor, it must be a quad-core. This regulates one to either desktop based i5/i7 chips or mobile i7 chips.
• Memory. Valve states the SteamOS recommends at least 8GB of DDR3 RAM running at 1600MHz.
• Hard drives. Valve could recommend any hard drive over 7200rpm with 16MB cache.
• Graphic cards. Nvidia GeForce-based cards with at least 2GB of GDDR5 memory.

Etc, etc, etc. Valve could be very specific when it comes to which CPUs and GPUs are "Steam Certified" and less strict when it comes to memory and hard drives. You don't need drivers for memory and hard drives, but you do need drivers for CPUs and GPUs. With Nvidia's press release stating they've been working closely with Valve, I would expect GPUs built specific for whatever physical size these Steam Machines are aiming for.

Yeah, Steam could basically make their own THX-style certification scheme for PC gaming. You'd likely be able to fudge the details but it wouldn't be a true Steam Machine unless you adhered to one of the different levels of their criteria in all aspects of your rig. At least that's how I imagine it.

Since when is the Mac Pro a mobile setup? Obviously all laptops have non-removable GPU's. They are all soldered on to the motherboard.

Also, neither console manufacturer wanted to wait 10 years before releasing their next consoles. Don't confuse a 10 year life span with waiting 10 years before releasing a new console.

We don't know if the Mac Pro will have mobile or desktop based GPUs. However, for consideration, Apple's iMacs have always utilized mobile GPUs.

If neither console manufacturer wanted to wait eight years, we would've already had our next-gen consoles now. The 360 came out nearly four years to the day the original Xbox came out, the PS3 came out less than six years after the debut of the PS2. We could've easily seen a next-generation console as early as 2009, but that would've been a disaster as consumers would've pushed back. It's now in the console manufacturers best interest to build and support a device that can have the life span of ten years. Even as we're on the launch of new consoles, Microsoft and Sony have both committed to supporting the 360 and PS3 for another two-to-three years before they start to pull the plug on the units and services offered.

The iMacs are also highly integrated, something the Mac Pro is not supposed to be from how they've been pitching it at least.

The last generation rush was Microsoft's doing, they rushed the Xbox 360 to market to get a leg up and sort of forced Sony's hand in the situation. Just way too short of a window imo. But it was brilliant for them.

Previous Mac Pro models were all based upon internal customization, the new Mac Pro models are based upon external customization. That's why there's multiple Thunderbolt 2 and USB 3 ports on it. While Apple has said the PCIe flash will be user upgradable, nothing else (CPU, GPU, RAM, etc) will be unlike past generations. It's also why it's barely a foot tall.

Gotcha, that's what I get for posting based off a quick read through.

Let's just say, you don't know all the facts. I'd post them all, but then I'd probably be fired.

I'm willing to take that risk!