Wait a second, games? As far as I know, the only thing we know about the Revolution is what it looks like. Nothing related to games has yet been mentioned. Get a fucking clue, if you want to talk about games then you need to either provide game details (oh wait, there are none) or you need to shut the fuck up. If all you're going on is a promise to revolutionalize gaming, I envy your naiveness.

Oh really? So one has to own a Phantom before they can call it crap? Or experience the Nazi Holocaust to know that was bad? Get real. I can read a good review on a game and determine if I would like it - whether positive or negative. Sure the N64 and GC had some good titles, but no where near the amount that NES and SNES had. Did I miss some great games? Yeah, but I would have missed a whole lot more if I didn't get my PS1 and PS2.

I agree about the FPS, but I think it would be great for racing games. Instead of buying a $100 wheel, I'm all for using a standard controller and tilting it to turn the car. Obviously, this would work well for anything which used analog precision to move the character.

Could be interesting. But wouldn't they have to leave a D-pad on their for older games which didn't use analog input?

Probably, but not necessarily. The 2D gba games play pretty well on the GB player using the analog stick. Much easier than trying to use the tiny D-pad on the GC controllers.

Considering its supposed to work with old NES games I'm thinking they will have to also put a D pad on there. Again there are so many ifs at this point that I'm not sure how the controller would look. The bottom line though is it has to work with N64 games. For that to happen all of the N64 buttons have to be on there.

Regardless of what Nintendo includes in the Revolutions controller, some will still label it a gimmick. Consider the DS, the touchscreen and voice input have proven themselves in several games now, yet people still consider the system as a whole a gimmick. Hell, if you think about it, everything can be labled a gimmick until it is utilized effectively, even four controller ports. If no game ever utilized that feature, most would label that a gimmick despite its "obvious" utility.

That argument is rather weak, in both of your examples the Phantom and the Holocaust, general reporting has supported your claims. The Phantom has been called crap by most of the gaming press, and the Holocaust was deemed bad by, well...everyone. You are not going against the grain with these, your views agree with prevailing wisdom.

However, in the case of Nintendo and its past two consoles, it is not prevailing wisdom that the consoles sucked. Despite not being the top consoles for each gen, both the N64 and the Cube were generally considered solid consoles, they also had many AAA games that were generally reported/reviewed as good. What console was the best, is of course always debatable, however with so many critics and gamers supporting Nintendo, you need to atleast have owned and experienced the systems before you can make your own conclusions. This carries even further, since you are now judging the next Nintendo console without owning the previous two. This might be okay if you just nonchalantly preferred not to own the next Nintendo console, but you are one of Nintendo's strongest critics.

There are so many examples of Nintendo innovation and/or just great features with things like the analog stick for Mario 64, the rumble pack, the DS features which have begun to prove themselves with recent games (I don't own one, I am determining this from people's reactions lately), I just find it unreasonable that you are so critcal without having any first hand info on their past (two consoles), or any concrete info on their future.

You keep believing that.

Gaming has become big enough that a vast number of those who do it do not follow the enthusiast press and game developments. Sony can announce whatever the fuck they want and claim games will use the technology, but that won't bite into many Nintendo sales. Why? Because only those who actually follow the news will know.

Most people will see the Revolution on shelves and buy it if they want. They will also later see the Sony version on shelves and buy it if they want. They will choose games because they look cool or heard about it recently, not because they have been waiting and following its progress for months.

I highly doubt most of the casual gamers, and parents buying for kids especially, will ever catch wind of the innovations and copies before the respective pieces of hardware are on store shelves.

I hate to see what people will do to the gyroscopic controllers in the display units at stores

Reminds me of south park episode with the travelling Gyroscope.

Answer me this: If I don't like what what Nintendo has done for the last 10 years, and I don't like what they are doing now, then why shouldn't I be critical of their future?

Its not like I'm the only one. Sales have been steadily dropping for Nintendo consoles. I'm not the only person who has failed to be impressed by what Nintendo has offered. This is why I will not overestimate what they are capable of. Until Nintendo shows me something impressive, I will not buy into the "revolution".

Question is, why SHOULD you be critical. One, because it is obvious you have no interest to begin with. Two, I still don't understand how you can dislike a generally well liked system without ever picking up a controller. Best conclusion you can draw is that A.the system looks ugly and B. the games look terrible (based on pictures). C. Doesn't have the features I want in a system. All of which in no way offer a valid opinion of a system.

For example, the following bold part IS a valid opinion:
Now the underlined part is not a valid opinion. You can be dissatisfied with the product being offered(it isn't CD based, doesn't have the developer you like, doesn't have X feature, etc), but you cannot be dissatisfied with the product itself, since you have no frame of reference. It is a fine line, but there is a disticnt difference.

That is an incorrect statement. The console dictates the games that will be on the console, and the publishers who will work on it. In fact, stamping the name Nintendo on a console pretty much guarantees some support. The product they offered was not satisfactory to me - that is my opinion. It is drawn on the games on the system and the publisher who work on the system in whole. I figure out which system has the most to offer me, and go with that system. The N64 and GCN did not have enough to offer me to warrant a purchase. I am expecting the same with the Revolution. At any time my opinion on the situation can change, but for the past 10 years I have seen no reason to purchase a Nintendo console.

So it is a correct statement/opinion that I am dissatisfied with Nintendo consoles for the last two generations.

Edit: And if I wasn't interested in it, why would I spend so much time following the news for it? I am interested in gaming in general, and this promise of a change in gaming has my attention. Just because I'm skeptical doesn't mean that I am 100% against it.

Naivety? Again, you're falling on your crutch of the hardware to make your decision and to base your insults directed at others based on not knowing what the hardware is. It doesn't matter what it is; I know that's difficult for YOU to grasp, drowning in your numbers and technical specifications and press releases. I assure you that almost everyone excited about the new Nintendo system is primarily excited based on the fact that REGARDLESS of what the hardware ends up being, Nintendo will put out quality games as well as being excited about the premise of a new way to enjoy games. I don't need concrete details on exactly what games are coming to know that there's a high chance that they'll deliver something I'll thoroughly enjoy. Just like I don't need it spelled out to me that with Sony's massive third party support, there's going to be games I want to play on their system. I also don't need a magic eight-ball or a list of convoluted numbers and specifications to tell me that Microsoft has mother-fucking Hironobu Sakaguchi and Akira Toriyama working on an RPG for the Xbox 360, for which the last time this magical pairing happened, the world was blessed with Chrono Trigger.

My excitement on next generation is for games and I don't think anybody on this forum is going to disagree with that, except, maybe you. Because I just don't think you quite understand gaming passed the business ethics, the sales numbers and the technical aspects of the hardware. That's not an insult, that's just my educated deduction based on reading your posts on this forum for the last couple of years. You can cry all you want that I'm just a Nintendo "fanboy," and I won't argue that. I was raised on Nintendo. Nintendo brought me back into gaming after I gave up on it after the stagnation of the first generation of 3D games. But I also have a Playstation 2 and an Xbox, and a myriad of games for both. You can call me out as much as you want that I like to point out that Sony and Microsoft's marketing and direction are hurting gaming. That's my opinion and I still stand by that, but I also realize that both of them, along with several other companies are still putting out enough interesting product in my eyes to keep me supporting all their systems.

To spin press in favor of Sony.

As I've tried to pass in the various E3 threads (ironically enough, all the non-Sony threads) that joshd2012 systematically destroyed I recommend from this point on to just ignore him, because he won't give up until a mod steps in. Let's try to get this back on topic.

One thing that needs to be discussed is they hype and expectations that are building up at a rate that's no doubt going to leave people disappointed when more information is relapsed. Obviously, naming the system "Revolution" is a hype-machine in itself, but keeping the controller design secret is more of a business decision that has inadvertently gotten everybody in the gaming world building it up more than I'm sure Nintendo expected (or maybe as expected?). With all the speculation and all the wild rumors and people claiming to be "in-the-know" throwing stuff out there every other month people are going to be expecting the second coming at this point. Hopefully everyone keeps their expectations grounded in reality but there's no doubt going to be people (I won't mention names) that are going to be slinging mud all over the place once the controller is revealed.

Thoughts on the expectations built up thus far?

Your statements are rittled with hypocrasy, and the sad thing is, you probably don't even realize it.

I mention that the Revolution will not be as powerful as the PS3 or 360 because of its size (and following statements by Nintendo themself), and you get defensive how this isn't true and only a rumor - yet you don't care about hardware???

Someone else mentions how the Revolution will not support HD, and you post that you would be surprised if Nintendo went this direction - yet you don't care about hardware???

Sony and Microsoft make very few games compared to the amount of publishers on their given systems, yet you blame them for the demise of gaming. One must assume that you are discussing their hardware policies, but yet you don't care about hardware???

You can make statements - over and over and over - about how Sony and Microsoft are ruining gaming and you say its just your opinion. But if I continue to make statements about how disappointed I am in Nintendo, its all of a sudden no longer an opinion, and an attack on Nintendo. Where do you get the balls?

Another thing to consider is the controller design in terms of usability for backwards compatibility. The current Cube controller works extremely well in place of the N64 controller (seen in the Cube versions of Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask) and the NES controller is simple enough to adapt easily. The only black mark would be usage on SNES games and the only real issue would be the four face buttons arrangement. Still, just allowing you to customize which of the buttons correspond to their SNES counterparts to create a comfortable configuration for each individual game would probably work around this easily. Since the new system will accept standard Gamecube controllers it's also possible that Nintendo would release a revised SNES controller for NES/SNES usage to work on the new system (either through the Cube ports or wirelessly) and if they aren't up to task on it, I'm sure a third party will take up the deed (though quality would be an issue).

Thoughts?

It's more a question of why waste your time being critical, following news and posting in nintendo threads when you have no interest in playing the console.

I have no interest in the 360. I posted in the price announcement threads because, IMO, the $400 price tag sets a terrible precedent and makes me nervous that now the PS3 and Revolution may get priced out of my range.

However, since I have made up my mind that I have interest in buying a 360 at this point, you won't see me posting in any more 360 threads unless it pertains to a price drop or their are enough good games that come out for it to make me want to buy one.

I'm not going to waste my time going into 360 threads when I have no intention of buying the console at this time.

It's a waste of my time and will do nothing but annoy the 360 fans.

I understand that joshd2012 likes to discuss hardware, marketying,sales etc. But dedicated Nintendo threads aren't the place for that. He should keep those in threads started to discuss such things. Posting all this negative stuff in a thread started by Nintendo fans to discuss rumors on the revolution is off topic and as such pretty much a series of thread craps.

I don't see any problems with backward compatibility in regards to the controller. I'd be shocked if we didn't get an analog stick, d-pad, 4 face buttons and 3 shoulder buttons again.

Layout isn't that important as you can adapt pretty easily, and as you say they'll probably be mapable for each game.

All the bitching back and forth has forced me to read every post in this thread, and if I agree with anything, it's the above. I'd really like to see all 3 flourish.

Anyhoo ... MOD NOTE: to some of you, YGM. Please check your e-mail before posting again.

I really hope we see all three beyond this generation. While they all have their strengths and weaknesses, it appears as if we have a healthier and more competitve market beacuse of it.

I really like the direction Nintendo is headed in at the moment as far as gaming is concerned. Yeah, they are catering to more of a niche market these days, but that's not a bad thing. The DS is a lot of fun (what a novel concept in games today!), and if Revolution can deliver along those lines then I will be very happy.

I would also be thrilled if all three can keep it going beyond this next generation. Obviously its tough to make money though in second and third place.

I could be wrong about this but I always thought that Nintendo was able to secure a profit. Is this because they control almost all means of production?

MS did loose a lot with Xbox though which could be the reason why 360 is so much.

Not really since the insides of the Gamecube were made by another company.

It's probably mainly due to keeping costs low by not adding in non-gaming features and not trying to be the most powerful console and the fact that they have several hugely popular first party series that allow them to make a large profit on software.