Josh, I take it you don't play much of any PC games. in this case step out of the picture. Moding is not only for the "1337" since I do not know how to make a modifcation for game, but it is in general for anyone willing to look around or hear word of mouth.

How would you like to put your own modified Sprays into Half life on PS2? or how about custom skins in Quake III arena on console? Imagen what the online community could do with something like DOA beach vollyball...

Isn't aware and "don't care" are two different things. Thats like saying:
"Most music listeners are casual listeners and either arent aware about P2P file sharing or just don't care about finding songs for free"

these mods are free, they offer fun alternatives to the game when it gets old. How many old games would you like if they added something new to it and most of all.. they were free? I think this is the aspect of PC gamings that keeps it alive and well. the support if see's online.

Not to mention the many ways you can alter the game to a totally different one. BF1942 is being made into plenty of things.. one future mod is called WASTELAND and it is pretty much a Mad Max Meets capture the flag. with new skins and everything. I don't think you can really say that the console community wouldn't benefit from this if they had the ability to do it. Look at Xbox, in some aspect it can since it does have a hard drive and you can download new skins for certain games. Wasn't there new outfits for DOA 3 you can load into the harddrive from a disc?

I downloaded them but haven't had a chance to play them. I really want to though.

I think part of the reason for the waning interest in PC gaming are some of those "great FPS" you mentioned. I've found that just about all first person shooters, whether it's Doom, Quake, No One Lives Forever, or what have you are all basically the same. Since it's become such a "can't miss" genre the marketplace has become flooded with an overabundance of FPS. There's little if any incentive for a programmer to become more creative. Just recycle an old FPS game engine and insert what ever generic non-descript bad guys you want into the fray and voila', a seemingly new game you can soak people for $49.99 with. Console programmers are experimenting with different game engines, different techniques, different game styles, and PC programmers are standing in place.

Splinter Cell is an example of what I'm talking about. The stealth genre isn't really new, but using light and shadow is an innovative twist on the game play. And this lends itself to taking the development of the entire game in a new direction. I've been reading that other programmers have been looking at Splinter Cell and saying "WOW! I wish I thought of that". Every time I look at a FPS I say the same thing, "Oh god not another first person shooter". That's the difference.

If the PC game market can't survive it's because of PC game makers own complacency and incompetance. Instead of cranking out 100 Doom clones a year they should have been working on something fresh and new. They have truley reaped what they have sown.

Ah, something new.. something like say an everquest type game? MMORPG's are big and a lot of what they have done with them has been ground breaking, though it is easy to say all FPS are the same, theres a difference every now and then and some good titles. Lets point out Jedi Knight II which offered a new twist to it with Light saber duels... and also considering it had a third person view to it, You wouldn't mind that. The story to a lot of FPS is the selling point.

then again, considering you hate First person views as much as I hate third person views (Lara craft, etc.) then maybe FPS is just not your bag. There is other things to PC gaming. Generals, MMORPG's, etc.

Someone already did. It was called Thief.

I understand what you are saying, though. I have the same criticism for most console games. Example: most fighting games seem the same to me. They just aren't too much different from the Mortal Combat.


I think some FPS shooters are pushing their creativity. Deus Ex 2 will certainly do it when it comes. Same thing with Half-Life 2, if it is any way as creative and innovative as the first Half-life. Check out the creatvity and storytelling in Max Payne -- sure, their bullet-time effects were ripped straight from HK cinema/the Matrix, but it's the first time I recall seeing it in a video game.

I prefer playing strategy war games on my computer, with an occasional dose of FPS. I've yet to see a console strategy game that has entertained me as much as games like the Close Combat series and Combat Mission games -- titles you'll never see on a console.

I really agree with you Funkyryno, Sure from the outside a lot of FPS might look like a sort of Point and shoot type of game, but a lot of them have a very good story and take advantage of stealth aswell as a proper story telling. I think the days of just random Run and gun fighting FPS has long ended with modern story telling a main focus on them today.

At their core every FPS, that I've played anyway, is basically the same;

walk walk walk BANG walk walk walk BANG walk BANG flip lever walk RELOAD BANG pick-up-item walk BANG walk


It's basically the same game play with different environments and a few cutscenes that tell some sort of coherent story.

Again I still think that PC game industry is suffering from complacency brought about by a lack of imagination. Instead of trying to do something different programmers go with what works. "Well we've always made first person shooters and they've always sold so there's no reason to change" seems to be the mantra in the PC game industry. At some point the marketplace becomes saturated and sales will begin to suffer. Alot of people have said they were bored with GTA3, but I have yet to find a game that can equal it in terms of depth and variation of gameplay in the PC world.

One of you pointed out that just about every fighting game is the same as Mortal Kombat. And you're right. Just about every fighting game on a console is a derivative of Mortal Kombat. The Mortal Kombat series has been in the toilet for a few years now. Again another case of programmers becoming complacent.

I'd have to say that one game on PC that I really HAVE enjoyed is a World War II RTS military game called G.I. Combat. It's not a very popular game, but there are a ton of cool mods that you can easily insert into the game. And rather than an isometric perspective it has it fully 3D rendered battlefields and more empahsis on infantry rather than vehicles. This is one of the few games outside the Total War series that I have seen that has done this. A new game using the same engine called Eric Young's Squad Assault is currently in development. But you can see my point. It's DIFFERENT than just about every RTS game I've played. And something different for me at least, isn't easy to find on the shelves amongst the countless FPS games at Best Buy.

Jack, I know mods are a great thing.

I was just saying they clearly aren't going to lead to PC gaming regaining popularity.

Mods have been around for years, and the popularity of console game has skyrocketed, while interest in PC gaming has at best remained flat.

My theory is that the bulk of gamers (meaning casual gamer) aren't aware of mods or just aren't interested in them enough to get into PC gaming (i.e. by a PC and/or video card, deal with updating drivers, downloading patches, etc.).

In other words, perhaps to many gamers (like myself) mods aren't enough to outweigh the perceived hassles of PC gaming.

Not to mention if Hard Drives become standard in consoles we'll likely see developers begin allowing users to make mods.

This is why I agree with you. All FPS games are basically the same. Run around and kill each other. You can change the story, the graphics and the engine but it still is the same game. Was there anything different at the core of Doom and Quake? Same thing with fighting games and a lot of RTS's. And if you look at it multiplayer for most games is the same. Deathmatch, team death match and a few other variations of the above. Diablo was unique in that it offered coop play in solving the game. I think the next successful games will be the real multiplayer games with online worlds where you can really work together to accomplish objectives.

I have 2 games for my PC now. Ghost Recon and Medieval Total War. GR is also my only x-box game because it's pretty unique among the mass of games. No getting hit by missiles 10 times before you die. You have to use real team work and tactics to win.

If you guys think all FPS games are the same, what you are really saying is that you haven't played a lot of FPS games. Of course, that's quite apparent when you reference Doom as if it's a current game.

I'll pick two of them at random: Thief and Serious Sam. Play both of those for even a few minutes...they are drastically different.

I've always preferred pc to consoles due to them having multiplayer games. The consoles are getting closer but I doubt that they will ever match a pc in what is available out there. Everquest for one was a major breakthrough, forget Ultima Online, Everquest is what defined the new online genre in pc games. By the times that consoles catch up, the pc games will be even more advanced. People say 'I can get Fantasy Star Online or Everquest Adventures', but they don't realize that these are not the same. You can have new content added weekly in a pc game, new patches, updates, dynamic content run by gm's, stuff that consoles at this point can probably not handle.

If you ask me Trigger, the new pc age doesn't come from HL2 and Doom3, it comes from Star Wars Galaxies (which is rumored to be released on consol), Dragon Empires, Horizon, Everquest 2, etc... Those games will bring a lot more gamers to the pc than a first person shooter ever could as time goes by simply because they provide a fun time as well as a social experience.

I might get Doom 3, but the fun part is I got a new pc under a month ago and I would already have to upgrade to get good performance.

BTW, I don't think all FPS's are the same at all. They have just as much variety as any other genre.

I think when someone dislikes a genre, they tend to view all games in that genre as being more or less the same.

Platformers are my favorite genre, and I think there's a decent amount of variety. But I'm sure some people that hate platformers think mario, sonic, rayman, crash, etc. are "all the same."

I think you've nailed it on the head. For example, amongst CRPG enthusiasts, the general consensus is that Baldur's Gate is a great game, while Icewind Dale is terrible. These are two games that use the same engine and would be practically indistinguishable to somebody not familiar with the genre.

Back to modding, the more I think about it the more I think that in the next generation we'll see a lot of hybrid games. You play the game on your console, but the game will include an editor that runs on your PC.

I think they could even do an editor on the console. All they need is enough HD space and a keyboard and mouse.

What is the difference between Medal of Honor, Quake, Wolfenstein, Doom and other FPS games? What is the difference between any RTS that has Command and Conquer in the title? Is there any real difference in city bulding games?

Games can be revolutionary for their time, but then the copies make them repetative. In the next few years we will have some good breakthroughs in pervasive multiplayer games where you pay per month. With piracy and rising development costs that is the one way that money can be made from PC gaming. Soon even they will become too repetative and a few years will go by until the next revolution.

I would agree with you Josh about the future of consoles looking bright with HD space to play with. I see the Xbox as really the only console right now that can handle any of that because of the storage space it has. Play around with a few codes and change an outfit or two. Make your own custom bike skin for a racing game or add your own decals in true detail to mech games. the future is largely open to these abilities if the programers game the tools to the gamers. I'm sure a Nude source code would do wonders to DOA volley ball..

As for the hate of FPS by the captain.. Uh.. "run run shoot" really, what games haven't you seen? Hell No One lives forever had a different feel to it with it's spying and play on lighting. to say that all FPS are the same is like saying Lara Craft, GTA 3/VC, Metal Gear solid, Ratchet and clank, Luigi's mansion, Mario Kart and Socom are all the same because it is a third person view on the character.. No matter what the story is... it's all the same because of the perspective. If you don't like the type of game (in this case FPS) then don't try to talk about them like you know them.. cause you really sound like your blowing air out of a certain area. Josh nailed it.. if you dislike a genre, you will not be able to look at it from different angles.

In any case, PC gaming has been alive and well, just kept in the sort of underground. I don't know how many folks I know who have spent most of their lives playing games like Everquest. Now once the consoles get more on the net connection and get that all fixed up so that more folks are using it at a standard higher speed, then that is when you will see a lot of the games that are big online in the PC world make it big aswell on the console machines. Not only that but with the fighting games, it will be a new way to play those VS games.

Both sides to the gaming will be boosted. Both Console aswell as PC. you really shouldn't seperate the two as console's are becoming in a sense "mini-computers" and the two are coming closer together in the grand scheme of it all.

I have played Thief and I found it mind numblingly boring. I've also played No One Lives Forever, Medal Of Honor Frontline (which I enjoyed for a little while then quickly became boring), the original Medal Of Honor, some Duke Nukem. One Christmas I got Quake II as a gift and I immediately returned it for Ape Escape. I admit I haven't played Serious Sam so I can't comment on that.

Maybe FPS aren't my bag, maybe I'm missing something. But to me there's little difference between Thief and a game like No One Lives Forever. Just rearrange some of the environments and some weapons and eliminate the cutscenes it's basically the same game.

My point was this; there seems to be an overabundance of these type of games on the market because programmers feel "this is what works so why should we change it". I can't tell you how many times I turned over a game box at Best Buy, saw it was a FPS and immediatley put it back on the shelf. At some point the marketplace becomes saturated and sales suffer because you are giving consumers more of the same. I don't claim to be an "expert" on the FPS genre. But you can't tell me that marketplace isn't flooded with this genre when I see evidence to the contrary. As someone who wanted to get into PC gaming more I'm finding it frustrating that my choices are restricted to FPS, real time strategy, role playing and flight sims. To me the Sims was even boring. I felt I was watching more than actually playing. If I wanted to micro manage every aspect of a persons life I'd become an accountant.

There seems to be a clear line in sand drawn as far as gaming style between PC games and console. And it's that rigidity that has, in my opinion, led to the "flattening" PC gaming market. PC programmers aren't expanding into new fields because they can go for a sure fire hit with a FPS rather than trying something different. And it's those new and different games that's giving the boost to the console market.

Again, if you do not know about a certain Genre, do not speak about it since you don't have your facts straight.


try these FPS and tell me if they are the same:

Half Life
Battle Field 1942
Thief
Serious sam
No one Lives forever 2
C&C renegade
Tribes
Team Fortress Classic
Death Match classic
Counter strike
Day of Defeat
DF: Black Hawk Down

I DID try Thief. Remember?

And unfortunatley I'm not in a position where I can go out and spend the the over $600 on games alone I would need to acquire all those titles. You wouldn't want me walking around homeless with a bunch of game boxes under my arm would you?
When I first got my own PC, about '96, I was into a number games and played a great deal. Then once I got my Playstation I slowly got away from PC gaming.


__________________


This gentleman happens to agree with me. But instead you single ME out. Why aren't you as voicisferously contesting his assessment of the PC gaming industry as you have mine? Is this merely a case of "Dogpile on the rabbit"? Do you dispute the fact that there are an overabundance of the FPS titles on the market? Do you dispute the fact that PC gaming industry is now flat because of the lack of variety in games? No you so far haven't. But you've chosen to clearly make an example of me while there are others who DO agree with what I'm saying.


It's okay for you guys to express YOUR opinions but as soon as I disagree with the cognescenti it's obvious I don't know what I'm talking about? I see how it works now

If I don't know anything about RPG's, I wont say:
"Man, those RPG's are all the same.. wait for your turn, slash and continue.. No skill other then how many health potion thingies you have"

If I know about a genre, I will talk about it's higher and lower points. If I don't know, I don't claim to know. You played one of the games listed.. Oooh. I guess you must be a pro at FPS now right. please tell me more about the field that you know so much about. Then you make a blanket statement about the whole field in general saying they are all the same except for a graphic change here and there. Again, if you do not know about a field, don't comment about it. You Opinion has been made and accepted, You do not like FPS.. but you go over the line when you say "I don't like FPS because they are all the same". Just like saying "All jews are penny pinchers" or "All rappers are black".

Medal of Honor really was just a nice way to play a duke nukem in WW2. Quake I, II and III are much different games from each other if you ask me.

I agree with the alive and well part. I don't really think it's went underground, or even that it's popularity has really been reduced.

I think interest in PC Gaming (i.e. number of people playing on a regular basis) has likely remained pretty constant, or grew a little.

It's just that console gaming skyrocketed during this period and overshadowed PC gaming in shear numbers of people playing.

Thus we see smaller PC game sections at EB not because less people are playing PC games, but because so many more are playing console games and they have to stock the products according to market size.


If this ever happens, it could be trouble for PC games. If consoles become more or less computers and have features like modding and online gaming, and tons of FPS, MMORPGs, RTS, keyboard and mouse for a control option, etc. PC gaming will have few benefits left.

Really the only benefit that would be left is better graphics for those that keep their system top of the line and consoles will always be 4-5 years apart while PCs advance much quicker.

But it's doubtful that many would still keep playing PC games when they could have the same experience sitting on a couch in front of a big TV and surround sound.

Of course I'm not saying that will happen. I think there will always be considerable stylistic seperation between PC gaming and console gaming.

PCs will likely continue to dominate in FPSs, RTSs, CRPGs, MMORPGs, etc. While consoles will continue to dominate in platformers, fighters, and sports games.

At which point it becomes a PC.

That's stable and easy to hook up to your TV and surround sound and play from the couch.

That was my point. If consoles pretty much become PCs, why would we have a reason to still play PC games (besides from the graphic advantage for those that keep their system top of the line that I mentioned above).

I mean if you had mods, updates, keyboard/mouse control, basically same game library, etc. on your X-box would you still screw with keeping your PC upgraded, sitting in a desk chair to play games, playing on a relatively small monitor, rather than playing your X-box on a big TV with surround sound on a comfy couch?

But, as I said above, I don't think this is likely to happen and think console and PC gaming will remain "different beasts."

You have a valid point, I haven't played every FPS. But once again even when there are those who agree with my original point that the market place is saturated with this genre you most voiciferoulsy contest MY opinion and no one else's.

And let's not bring race into this. We don't need to go there.

He was objecting to you saying that "all FPSs are the same" not with your assertion that the PC market is oversaturated with FPS titles.

You got singled out because you're the only one who said they're al the same. No one else has agreed with that assertion.