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Splinter Cell Discussion

Old 11-07-02, 05:42 PM
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I'm not sure how reliable the FAQ below is but it seems to address some of the flaws discussed in this thread.

http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox/..._cell_demo.txt

The author of the FAQ seems to have obtained his info from responses from the developers in the splinter cell forum:

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/overv...plintercell_gd
Old 11-07-02, 06:39 PM
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Damn this demo really killed off a few future buyers. Goes to show sometimes demo can really kill your sales. If the demo truly doesn't reflect the final product why release the demo? All you're doing is hindering future sales.
Old 11-07-02, 09:53 PM
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I picked up the X-Box magazine Demo of Splinter Cell and I can say that I didn't like the demo at all.

There are some vaild points of demos v. releaseware but I can tell you based on the demo I'm now completly disinterested in picking up this game. Now you have to understand I didn't really like Metal Gear Solid 2, so it's as much a game type preference as my reaction to this problematic demo.

Very few if any wow's in the demo. The first poster in this thread hit the nail on the head with many of the demos problems, but for a game that people were touting as 'Game of the year' I'd say that the chasm between hype and reality on this one may be pretty big.
Old 11-07-02, 10:13 PM
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This was one game that made me want to get a XBox. I'm disappointed with the negative reactions to the demo. How does this demo compare to the MGS2 one which came out six months before the release?
Old 11-07-02, 10:28 PM
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I haven't played the demo, but from what I'm hearing this could be fairly bad news as Splinter Cell was the big holiday title for the Xbox with Panzer Dragoon and Brute Force getting moved.

To address someones point about demo discs sometimes hurting sales. I had a subscription to the Official Dreamcast magazine and their demo discs turned me off to most of the games on them. Sometimes demos can hurt you a lot more than help. The Xbox ones have been fairly good though overall.
Old 11-07-02, 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by KingSmoth

9) This is not a case of good sound - it's a case of poor use of sound. Since when does an empty coke can go BOOM? Since when does hitting someone in the skull with the butt of your pistol sound like hitting a pillow?
Have you cracked a few people in the skull with the butt of a gun before to see what it sounded like? Maybe it does sound like hitting a pillow. Who knows?

Anyway, I was planning on getting this game as a blind buy, then played the demo. I think I will just wait 'til my friend buys it, then borrow after he is through.

On the flipside, I hadn't planned on getting Timesplitters2, but then I played the demo and ran out and bought it the next day. Go figure.

I agree, if you are going to release a demo, do it right the first time so you don't lose potential customers.
Old 11-08-02, 03:39 AM
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Wow... I can't believe so many people have issues with this demo. I found relatively no clipping at all. One body I hid had his arm in the next room, but that's such a complete non-issue for me. This is the most visually stunning and realistic game ever to grace a console, period. I played through the demo 6 times today. I had also played with it at E3 (and memory serves that it wasn't the same level as this demo). You want to talk about clipping? Look no further at the darling of the forum right now - Vice City... that's the worst offender ever. Forgiveable? Sure, for the most part... but it's still a million times worse on the clipping than this game.

I think Flay hit the nail on the head with alot of these complaints - I think alot of the complaints stem from people simply not being able to play the game properly. As it has been mentioned several times, this is a stealth-based game. You are to hide the bodies you kill. I was able to hide all the bodies and none of them were ever discovered... The controls were easy for me - I took to them like fish to water. Shoot the phone? Why? Would you really do that in real life? You wouldn't last 5 minutes if that was your occupation.

This game most certainly isn't for everyone... some people prefer a faster paced game. This game is very slow paced. There are also times when you'll need to do things quickly in other levels. The demo is absolutely an accurate representation of what the final game is like - the AI is good compared to every other game of this type - I mean, were you all expecting too much perhaps? What game doesn't have AI that occasionally does something kinda stupid? In Vice City - we stood inside a burger shop and had 20 cops and FBI guys and SWAT guys shooting at us through the glass (which was bulletproof??) so how can this be the greatest game ever, but Splinter Cell is a pile of crap because one guy says he got a guard to try to shoot him through bulletproof glass? That doesn't make sense to me. I had no problems with this demo... my roommate played through it and he clearly was having problems - the only problem he had in the game was halfway through he couldn't access his nightvision/heatvision. Someone post a screen shot or two of this alleged clipping. I saw none except for the arm... I wasn't standing inside a table or anything - I mean the curtain kinda goes through you a little bit, but so what? It looks awesome.

Not enough bullets?? I finished my last run through with 32 extra - you want some of mine?

Too 'bling bling'? Wha? The game is beautiful - most realistic looking game on any console period... until Doom 3 comes to Xbox.

Well, nobody has to agree with me (people seldom do around here), I just wanted to post my thoughts because it seems alot of people are now not going to give it a chance because of what someone says - there are plenty of ways to get your hands on the demo and I'd suggest checking that out for yourself cuz apparently it's not for everyone. However, they released a really good demo IMO - then again, I didn't encounter the problems that others are reporting. Maybe I'll try to play through the game wrong once to see if I get the same problems.

I mean, I thought Timesplitters 2 was one of the worst FPS games I've ever played, but it gets rave reviews and everyone seems to go ga ga over it... so the 2 or 3 people who tend to agree with my opinions/reviews can at least take my Splinter Cell recommendation to the bank - the rest of you should probably check out the demo yourselves first.

P.S. - I still think this is GOTY.
Old 11-08-02, 06:01 AM
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I don't mean this as an insult to you Trigger, but do try and read what I said. The problems with this have nothing to do with skill. I played through it a few more times last night, and encountered many of the same problems. I started off by taking out the lights at the first door. I went inside, the guard walked off down the hall, then I took out all the lights in the cell hall. When he came walking out, even though my meter was at the very bottom and I wasn't moving, he saw me in the darkness and shot me. I ran right up in front of him and stopped, then slowly drew out my pistal and popped him off point blank in the head 3 times before he dropped. I took out every light along the way to the morgue(btw, each light took 2 bullets, no matter how accurate of a shot I had), knocked out the guy in there and took out the camera(which took 4 bullets). Oh, I'll quickly add, even though it took 2 bullets to take out each light, by throwing a coke can at a light it shattered into a million pieces with a BOOM no problem......obviously a Coke can is more powerful than a bullet.
Anyway, from there I snuck up the stairs, took out all the lights and guards(only managed to drop 1 with a single shot, everyone else took multiple shots, or I elbowed them). I was never detected, there was no one around, the camera was out, yet somehow, someone found a body, which was IMPOSSIBLE. Anyway, I progressed, took out the lights to the computer room, when the two guards from up there once again saw me in total darkness and shot me a few times before I took them out. At this point I only had a few bullets left over, but picked up some more at the end to go to 32 rounds or so. From here, even though I had taken out everyone and the cameras, once again, the body alarm rang out. I finished the mission, still completely dissatisfied. But hey, I was able to infinitely hold onto a pipe while shooting a gun, as well as jump 10 feet in the air and do an infinite split, so it's all good................
As for your comment about Vice City and clipping: I haven't come across too much clipping so far in it, but some pretty bad camera angles at my safehouse until I rotate the camera. The difference is, those problems don't directly affect the outcome of the game. When a game that relies on stealth has so many problems regarding stealth, like ghost people finding the bodies and sounding alarms, guards with night vision(but not the goggles), guards not showing up on heat vision, not being able to open a door stealth(cracking it open isn't enough; after that, he just throws it open, shouting "I'M HERE!!!!!!!!!"), taking 6 head shots to take down a guard, and more, that hinders gameplay. Not to mention the horrible physics of the game.
I've posted my thoughts on this demo on a few forums, and I've been called quite a few things. I've also read on another forum where people have posted negative aspects of the game and been flamed. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but there is no need to dismiss these problems by flaming someone, telling them they don't know how to play a game, or, even worse, ignoring them altogether because you want to like the game so much that you won't listen to any problems with it. If you don't believe that, just read some threads over on the gamefaqs SC forum.

Last edited by KingSmoth; 11-08-02 at 06:07 AM.
Old 11-08-02, 06:47 AM
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Originally posted by gkleinman
The first poster in this thread hit the nail on the head with many of the demos problems, but for a game that people were touting as 'Game of the year' I'd say that the chasm between hype and reality on this one may be pretty big.
Originally posted by Trigger
I think Flay hit the nail on the head with alot of these complaints - I think alot of the complaints stem from people simply not being able to play the game properly. As it has been mentioned several times, this is a stealth-based game. You are to hide the bodies you kill. I was able to hide all the bodies and none of them were ever discovered... The controls were easy for me - I took to them like fish to water. Shoot the phone? Why? Would you really do that in real life? You wouldn't last 5 minutes if that was your occupation.
Can't wait to play this game and see which nail is really being hit.
Old 11-08-02, 07:08 AM
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I think KingSmooth has some very good points. I've already paid for SC and I'm looking forward to it, but I don't see how some of these issues can be dismissed as simply someone who has no skill.

2 bullets to take out a light or you can throw a coke can for the same result?

Hopefully some of these issues will be resolved in the final version of the game, which is very possible. I guess we'll know in a little over a week.
Old 11-08-02, 07:29 AM
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Originally posted by Gromit


2 bullets to take out a light or you can throw a coke can for the same result?

Depends what angle you're firing from. You may think you're firing directly at the light, but from what I can tell, if the angle is too shallow, you may just be hitting the bulb frame/cover.

Your best bet is generally to fire from directly beneath it or as close to that position as possible. If you're careful, you can take it out in one shot. The guards can still hear you though.

Tuan Jim
Old 11-08-02, 08:58 AM
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Every game has its problems. For many people the demo provided in OXM is pretty poor and for many it is awesome. From the poor perspective whose fault do you think this is: Ubi Soft, Microsoft or OXM itself? It's a valid question with answers for all 3 options.

This could be the E3 demo which went to Microsoft to give some QA and then went to OXM. OXM then decided to go beyond its usual tactics and actually release a demo before the game is out in stores. Panzer Dragoon Orta is also on the disc, but OXM had reviewed it the month before.

Demos are not always the best thing to show. I would really have to wrack my brain to think about a PC demo whose final game overcame the problems presented in the demo or was far better than the demo.

In some ways I agree with Trigger (a rarity, but I do agree with him sometimes) and in some ways I agree with the others. The key problem with the demo is that we are not given all the "tools" that will be in the final game. The key thing I am talking about is the modular assault rifle (the "other" gun in the game) that does many things (shoots grenades, sniper rifle, machine gun, etc.). It has better accuracy than the pistol used in this demo.

The lights problem depends on where you are situated when trying to shoot at them. Given an angle more than 45 degrees from the light you will most likely not shoot it out. Taking it 45 degrees or below would increase your chances to shoot the light out. It's very realistic, but people still have a problem with that.

As for shooting people...are you shooting from a crouched position or from a fully upright position. I've noticed in the demo that if you are in a crouched position that you are not as accurate with the pistol than you are in the fully upright position. With the rifle it would most likely be the reverse. In the crouched position you once again run into the angle problem. It is not as easy to shoot diagonally for a head shot as it would be on a straight line (upright).

There are some problems in the demo as well. Such things as the weird jumping physics and the clipping (the key place I can think of here is your back against a wall and you decide to stand up and the camera is turned at an odd angle. Sometimes your body is clipped into the wall) are key problems. I personally have not had anyone find the bodies I've moved into darkened rooms, but I am sure it could happen. If this is the E3 build I would not be surprised that the AI had not been to the level it would be now. AI is one of the last things done in a game. They build the basic framework and then do refinements to the AI close to the end of the development cycle.

Just last night I played the demo again to find all the problems that KingSmooth had put down in his post. I keyed in on the head shot thing (which I talked about above). I was able to take out most of the close-by enemies with one head shot. For farther away ones (such as the far one in the computer room) it took a couple or a few shots). My angle wasn't the best to shoot from, but I got the first one sitting at his computer with one head shot.

There are problems here, but all I can say is that you should at least give this game a rent. The other thing I can suggest is going to Gamespot and watching the 341MB of video interviews with the developer (I think this may be only Gamespot Complete available). The game is constantly playing on a television in the background and it looks to me like it looks better than the demo.

If I went with the demo (which was from E3) for Legend of Zelda for GameCube that I played at the Nintendo Cube Club, I would not buy the game. No explaination of where you were or what to do in many of the areas of that demo. I was disappointed by it, but I know Nintendo will tweak it before it comes out in March. Zelda is my favorite series and it just shocked me how different things were in the new Zelda. The key here is to not go on a demo. Zelda will be a great game, the demo was just not presented very well and didn't tell you exactly what you were doing.

Anyway, I've written enough for now. Fire away!
Old 11-08-02, 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by Tuan Jim
Depends what angle you're firing from. You may think you're firing directly at the light, but from what I can tell, if the angle is too shallow, you may just be hitting the bulb frame/cover.

Your best bet is generally to fire from directly beneath it or as close to that position as possible. If you're careful, you can take it out in one shot. The guards can still hear you though.

Tuan Jim
I tried it from different angles, including directly under the lights. When you shoot them, you can see shards fly off, but they didn't shatter until 2 shots hit. One of the lights in the cell hall - the single bulb sticking out high up on the left wall before the door - I shot it 3 times before it went out. One of the bullets went straight through the light but didn't destroy it. This was clearly obvious because of how close I was, my direct shot, and the fact that the bullet left a hole directly behind the bulb.


As for shooting when crouching or standing, I tried both. I also tried shooting while moving, which resulted in unloading about 16 rounds(aiming at the center of the guards chest) before the guard fell over. Obviously I missed a few, but to be aiming dead center, even with an inaccurate pistol, I would think a secret agent could take someone down faster at the range I was at(10 feet or less I would estimate).

Another thing I encountered was jumping through the curtains in the waiting room(whatever it is). Walking through, the curtains move, but if you jump through, they don't. I'm sure that will be fixed.
At the starting point, I jumped up on the bench by the tree(seeing if he could climb) and got stuck, with the camera and Sam moving erratically. Took 15-20 seconds and some button pounding/analog moving before he finally got unstuck.
One last thing: I mentioned that Sam should be able to open a door while carrying a body, and Flay didn't agree, assuming Sam isn't strong enough. Well, how on earth can he jump 10 feet in the air and do a split for an indefinite amount of time? Or, how can he cling to a pipe or rope and hold himself up for an indefinite amount of time while shooting his gun?
My friends want to rent the game when it comes out, in hopes it will be better than the demo was. I hope so, because I was looking forward to this game until I played the demo. I just get the impression they had so much cool stuff they wanted to do, and put it all in, but it's not fully functional, or well thought out.

Last edited by KingSmoth; 11-08-02 at 10:18 AM.
Old 11-08-02, 10:38 AM
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I think another problem here is that the word 'realistic' is being taken literally. Game developers try their best to create a game that simulates real-life physics, and even if they did get it right, does that constitute a game that is 'real'?
How many racing games have been praised as having 'realistic handling physics'? How many flight-sims incorporate real-world-flight characteristics? Are these games *gasp* real?

When a game is hyped-up into being the real thing, all of a sudden, people expect to drive the racecar around a corner like Mario Andretti, or fly their jet plane like Chuck Yager, or start shooting at telephones in the background like what crazy people do!
Old 11-08-02, 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by Centurion
or start shooting at telephones in the background like what crazy people do!
lol
I know what to expect to be "realistic" and what not to - I know where to draw the line. But the things I brought up are totally manageable.
Old 11-08-02, 11:15 AM
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I played the demo again last night albeit with a more critical eye.

More often than not I was able to shoot out a light with one bullet. It just seems easier with a can plus you can keep reusing the can.

There are clipping problems, but I can't recall a 3D game that didn't have clipping.

I shot out all of the lights in the lab next to the morgue and the furniture did bling bling.

I crouched in darkness when the first guard came looking for me. He didn't see me until he got less than a foot away from me, but I was directly in front of him. I tried it again, but this time I didn't stand directly in front of him. As he passed me I was able to grab him and put my gun to his head.

It seems like if you knock someone out it only takes one bullet to kill him.

After playing through the demo again I realized I like this game a lot even with all of its faults. I'm still picking it up on release day.
Old 11-08-02, 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by jeffdsmith
Can't wait to play this game and see which nail is really being hit.
Anyone not siding with Geoff is immediately having their accounts suspended.
Old 11-08-02, 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by Centurion
I think another problem here is that the word 'realistic' is being taken literally.
Yeah. Anyone remember Trespasser? That was a game that incorporated real physics and was a disaster.

It's a fine line between realistic and just being a game. I hope Splinter Cell can balance that.

Jeremy
Old 11-08-02, 12:33 PM
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How many DVDtalkers does it take to figure out how to break a light bulb?
Old 11-08-02, 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by darkside
Anyone not siding with Geoff is immediately having their accounts suspended.

Old 11-08-02, 01:26 PM
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It's never taken me more than 3 bullets in the chest or one in the head to drop a guard. This is a weak pistol, it's supposed to be. It's small, lightweight, and silenced. Still 1 shot to the head is all it should take if you're lined up exactly and your crosshairs are small (i.e. you haven't moved for a second). If your crosshairs are big, it means you're moving and you're going to be less accurate with your shot placement.

I've only had a body found once.

I've noticed the clipping problem, and forgiven Ubi for it for giving me such a realistic looking lighting engine.

I think the character animations for Sam are the most realistic ever seen on any console.

Most lights take 1 shot, I've had some take two if I was halfway down the hall trying to hit it.

King, I'm sorry you're having such a helluva time with this demo, but I think it's one of the finest games I've ever seen. I pre-ordered the day after I played it and I've been playing the demo for over a week now. I honestly don't see half the problems you're having with it so I guess I'm just lucky.

It's too bad so many people are having problems with this. I wonder what I could be doing differently?
Old 11-08-02, 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by KingSmoth
I don't mean this as an insult to you Trigger, but do try and read what I said. The problems with this have nothing to do with skill. I played through it a few more times last night, and encountered many of the same problems. I started off by taking out the lights at the first door. I went inside, the guard walked off down the hall, then I took out all the lights in the cell hall. When he came walking out, even though my meter was at the very bottom and I wasn't moving, he saw me in the darkness and shot me. I ran right up in front of him and stopped, then slowly drew out my pistal and popped him off point blank in the head 3 times before he dropped. I took out every light along the way to the morgue(btw, each light took 2 bullets, no matter how accurate of a shot I had), knocked out the guy in there and took out the camera(which took 4 bullets). Oh, I'll quickly add, even though it took 2 bullets to take out each light, by throwing a coke can at a light it shattered into a million pieces with a BOOM no problem......obviously a Coke can is more powerful than a bullet.
Anyway, from there I snuck up the stairs, took out all the lights and guards(only managed to drop 1 with a single shot, everyone else took multiple shots, or I elbowed them). I was never detected, there was no one around, the camera was out, yet somehow, someone found a body, which was IMPOSSIBLE. Anyway, I progressed, took out the lights to the computer room, when the two guards from up there once again saw me in total darkness and shot me a few times before I took them out. At this point I only had a few bullets left over, but picked up some more at the end to go to 32 rounds or so. From here, even though I had taken out everyone and the cameras, once again, the body alarm rang out. I finished the mission, still completely dissatisfied. But hey, I was able to infinitely hold onto a pipe while shooting a gun, as well as jump 10 feet in the air and do an infinite split, so it's all good................
As for your comment about Vice City and clipping: I haven't come across too much clipping so far in it, but some pretty bad camera angles at my safehouse until I rotate the camera. The difference is, those problems don't directly affect the outcome of the game. When a game that relies on stealth has so many problems regarding stealth, like ghost people finding the bodies and sounding alarms, guards with night vision(but not the goggles), guards not showing up on heat vision, not being able to open a door stealth(cracking it open isn't enough; after that, he just throws it open, shouting "I'M HERE!!!!!!!!!"), taking 6 head shots to take down a guard, and more, that hinders gameplay. Not to mention the horrible physics of the game.
I've posted my thoughts on this demo on a few forums, and I've been called quite a few things. I've also read on another forum where people have posted negative aspects of the game and been flamed. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but there is no need to dismiss these problems by flaming someone, telling them they don't know how to play a game, or, even worse, ignoring them altogether because you want to like the game so much that you won't listen to any problems with it. If you don't believe that, just read some threads over on the gamefaqs SC forum.
I was right - you're doing it wrong. I got through the whole thing without picking up a can... 2 to 3 shots per enemy (I always fire two "two in the head...")... I never shot out any lights... I hid all the bodies and none were ever discovered... I ended the game with as many bullets as they started me with... and I never had any clipping problems. So it's not that I'm trying to like it because I want to - I like it because I like it. I'm the first person to bitch about a game sucking if I don't like it. This has nothing to do with Xbox loyalty either... I'm a PC loyalist over any console. This is simply because the game kicks ass.
Old 11-08-02, 01:42 PM
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Doing it wrong, no. My friends and I have played through it numerous times now, trying different things each time. That was just my most recent playthrough I did last night before we started up a few hours of Contra.
Besides, being a stealth game, there's more than one way to get through a mission.
Old 11-08-02, 05:27 PM
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i have to hands down agree with trigger. i too went through this demo a few times and have yet to have a body detected, you have to hide them in darkness. also you cant go running around, when you run around it makes a lot of noise, you have to tiptoe but pressing forward on the analog but not all the way, i snuck up on every single guard doing this. when it comes to killing i try to grab from behind and interrogate then knock them out, if there are more than one though ill give him a single head shot which does the job everytime. the most bullets i ever fired to kill someone across the entire room was 6 and im sure some of them missed. the only clipping problem as mentioned before is if you place a dead body too close to a wall the arms or legs go through it, not a big deal at all, every 3d game except for halo this occurs in. lighting is amazing. cans sound like cans when they hit the ground or another object. when you hit someone with your pistol what do you expect an explosion? when you punch someone in the head it doesnt make a loud noise like in the movies, maybe this is why it seems unrealistic to you. heat vision can only be used in relative closeness, its called realism, you cant detect body heat 100 feet away with these little goggles. the lockpick and optic wire are pretty cool i think as well, just wish the demo was a little longer, thats my only complaint. my only words of advice are if you havent played the demo, or are thrying to run and gun your way through it, you are missing out, try this game on your own before making a decision, i think its going to be really good and im picky when it comes to buying games.
Old 11-08-02, 05:28 PM
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You're welcome to have your opinion of it, I'm not trying to deny you of that - but the fact that I've been through the demo 6 complete times and have encountered none of the problems you did shows that maybe it's not so much a defective game, but a defective player... I'm also not trying to suggest that you suck at video games either...

Also - there is indeed more than one way to go through a mission - every time I went through I did it differently and every time was a satisfactory experience. I mean, there is indeed a way to hide bodies because I've done it successfully. I also ran through without hiding the bodies and just leaving them where I killed them and they all got discovered. So that should at least indicate that there is a proper way to do it. Just like with any game - there's a right way and a wrong way... there can be many different right ways and many different wrong ways as well.

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