Just wanted to add, that I've got experience reviewing games, and writing editorials, as well as moderating a video game forum.

I've said this before, both in the other thread and during the meeting, but expecting multiple reviewers for a single title is going to be unrealistic given the fact that this is a volunteer basis and it's hard enough as is to get a commitment for a single review on any particular title let alone multiple reviews, especially in a timely manner. While the goal will be to get different view points with smaller reviews in addition to the main review, don't expect them most of the time.

OK.. Some of us got together and talked about what we would like to see on VideoGameTalk last night. We chatted for an hour and fifteen minutes. I've broken the talk up into 3 sections Reviews, Ratings, and Conclusion.

Here's the first part:

Darknght16: ok i think this needs to be asked, A) Who has industry contacts? B) How serious of a video gamer are you? (ie how long, how often you play, how many systems you have, do you import), C) Who here has a serious technical understanding
Darknght16: of the systems?
SkinnyWhiteDork: well, I would assume if someone wants to be a reviewer a year from now they don't start writing more reviews than someone who has been dedicated and consistent, at least not right away
L0X1AS: that's another point....some don't have the time but might have more knowledge in an area where someone does have time
jhinkle1114: 1) no contacts. 2) Pretty serious, play as much as I get a chance which isn't as much as I'd like with college and work. I have a Gamecube, GBA, Dreamcast, PSX, and N64, and I don't import
mljones99: dark: i consider my self a serious/hardcore gamer. been into games since I was like around 7-8. i have 3 systems (3-4 more back at moms house) and I do import
mljones99: edit..I have 4 systems
mrkestep: I probably won't be writing, since I suck at it
Finshee: I am an exceptional writer, just not a modest one
Darknght16: i think it's extremely important to get a number of staffers who import
Finshee: I own almost every system ever made (aside from ps2 and gamecube of course )
Darknght16: finshee; heh i bet you don't =)
jhinkle1114: I'll write and/or edit as I'm a senior journalism major and already work for a newspaper
SkinnyWhiteDork: I have NES, Genesis, GBA and Gameboy, PS2, Dreamcast, I play every system, I am very open, no brand loyalty, I don't important, I know some technical stuff
mljones99: I import for the DC and am planning to mod both my GC and PS2 to play imports
Stromvogel: 1) I have some contacts in Japan 2) I own almost every system. All that can be modded are 3) I'd like to edit, write sports reviews, and an opEd column. I know nothing of HTML, if that's what you're talking about.
mljones99: I do have a contact in Japan btw
Finshee: better idea guys.
SkinnyWhiteDork: when I say I play every system, I mean others besides mine, like I have been serious putting my friends Gamecubes to work
Darknght16: strom; actually i meant technical understanding of the console hardware =)
mrkestep: i have a somewhat technical understanding, but i'm pretty sure many other people have more.. I'm more of a computer man myself
Darknght16: guess i should chime in
Stromvogel: I got it all.. I'll just be up dissecting this tonight instead of playing Halo.
SkinnyWhiteDork: I still need to play Halo
SkinnyWhiteDork: but I don't know anyone with xbox
mrkestep: I will probably get off in about 15-20 min.. got college homework to do
Darknght16: A) I have a lot of industry contacts since I work in the industry. B) I own almost every system since the release of the NES (including stuff like Super Grafx, N64 64DD, WonderSwan etc), I constantly import C) I have a fair
Finshee: Well Strom. The only system I would REALLY focus on is the X - BOX. But I could write some reviews for Genesis / NES / SUper NES games when we need them.
Darknght16: technical understanding of how the systems work
Finshee: I own 12 X Box games though, and I get them as they come out basically.
L0X1AS: who doesn't have time to head up / be a major reviewer or contributor?
SkinnyWhiteDork: Darkknight, what do you do in the industry?
mrkestep: i dont
jhinkle1114: I can probably commit 5-10 hrs a week to the site
jhinkle1114: writing and editing
Darknght16: skinny; right now, mostly write, i've done minor work on development though
Stromvogel: I can do about 10-15 hours/week. Maybe more since I've been laid off.
jhinkle1114: it will just depend on my school load for the week, my work schedule is pretty much set 2-10 Tues and Thurs until mid Dec. then off a month for x-mas break then probably the same time but on Tues and Fri. next semester
Darknght16: skinny; you ever heard of a publication called Game WEEK, now known as ie mag? Also wrote for Intelligent Gamer Online, was third in charge of n64hq.com before it went down, done a couple things for IGN, done stuff for various
mljones99: I can try to make some contacts here in Austin... lots of game developers have offices here
Darknght16: Ziff Davis mags like EGM and OPM, also write on the side for a site called Gaming Age
jhinkle1114: if the site is successful and gets traffic we will have no problem making contacts, that's the key, hopefully the tie in with DVD Talk will help us get off to a good start
inshee: ok, come on up then!
Stromvogel: Josh: Exactly. That gives us a leg up, IMHO
SkinnyWhiteDork: hehe

Reviews

jhinkle1114: I thought Geoff's idea about having the reviews be of players experiences with the game, rather than plot summaries etc. was cool. Plot summaries and the like should be in previews no reviews
mljones99: I really like the direction Geoff wants to go with this.
Stromvogel: Right.
jhinkle1114: me too, he has some good ideas
Stromvogel: I think reviews-only sites are going the way of the dinosaur.
mljones99: Yep
mrkestep: yeah, movies and pictures have become the norm..
Darknght16: but movies and pictures really eat bandwidth and server load
jhinkle1114: we definitely need a variety of stuff, previews, reviews, impressions, news, Q&A's, Editorials etc.
Darknght16: which is EXPENSIVE
Stromvogel: I think the idea of making this something casual gamers can read and enjoy will be essential to the survival.
L0X1AS: One thing that my roommate has definately been looking for is tips within games
jhinkle1114: yeah we need to try to minimize movies, pictures we might can get buy with if we just have a few really good screen shots for each game instead of a ton of random ones like a lot of sites seem to have
Stromvogel: Do any of you use the in-game footage as a deciding factor in buying games?
mljones99: not I
Stromvogel: stills are OK. It takes the person who has a 56K modem too long to download the movies.
mljones99: if yo are referring to movies and such
Darknght16: i like to see how a game moves first, ie if it looks to have any awkward camera movement and stuff
jhinkle1114: yes, it must appeal to the casual gamers, the hardcore gamers are already loyal to certain sites and aren't likely to start regularly reading any new sites
jhinkle1114: movies don't matter to me when deciding on a purchase. I read as much as I can about the gameplay.
Stromvogel: I also thought that it would be cool if we had a reviewer playing the game 'along with the readers'
mrkestep: yeah, i like watching the movies, but the deciding factor if a game is good enough to buy is if i actually have the controller in my hands
Stromvogel: More folks on the way...
L0X1AS: how do you mean 'along with the readers'?
mljones99: I like the idea of having more than one person doing a review for one game.
Stromvogel: The reviewer would get the game on the first day it comes out, play an hour or so a day
Darknght16: the problem with that is getting people commited to doing that
jhinkle1114: yes we should have a few reviews and a bunch of impressions for each game, especially the big ones
mrkestep: yeah, some people are biased when reviewing, having more than one review would equalize it and rate how the game is
Stromvogel: Then, the reviewer would post their thoughts as it went.
mljones99: exactly mrkestep
Darknght16: strom; that's not such a good idea
jhinkle1114: I also like the idea of having a reader reviews section that one of you guys, or another member, mentioned in the thread
L0X1AS: that's cool, but not sure if it's viable
Stromvogel: I think the multiple reviews will be essential to making VGTalk.
Darknght16: when people want to know about something, they don't want to keep coming back to read the update
MartianKerygma: A review section would be easy enough... PHP-based, basic filters for censoring inappropriate content, and then someone to approve each review
jhinkle1114: there was an old n64 site a while back www.n64hq.com (Keyword to: http://www.n64hq.com) i believe, that had a great reader review section. It was probably my favorite VG site, but it went down a year or two after the N64 launch.
mrkestep: one thing that would be cool is do something like amazon does.. have "all star" reviewers, people that give consistently good reviews on the actual game
Stromvogel: Yeah.
Darknght16: heh i was one of the top three guys at n64hq.com =)
Stromvogel: Maybe those people could eventually become writers for VGTalk.
jhinkle1114: cool
mrkestep: and so the people who do not want to look for a review to read, can instantly see the person is an all star, and read that
L0X1AS: that's a good idea....kinda reward the "faithful"
mrkestep: but that would help so that we won't have reviewers write a one or two sentence review of a game
Stromvogel: Yeah.
Stromvogel: So, we all like the idea of multiple reviews and reader reviews...
Darknght16: if you want to do multiple reviews from the staff, probably the best thing to do is to have one main review and then shorter reviews
jhinkle1114: yeah if theirs a reader review section, they would need to be read and reviewed before being posted, otherwise it would get spammed big time
MartianKerygma: Right, Dark
mljones99: What about having like a bio page for each reviewer, at least the main ones so that people can read their bio and see what their tastes are. if an RPG fan reads a bio of a reviewer and sees that he is also a RPG fan, the reader
mljones99: will feel more comfortable and trusting of the review
jhinkle1114: Yeah I'd say one real comprehensive review explaining the game and their opinions on it and the several that just give their opinions on the game. No need to re-explain the details of the game
Stromvogel: mljones: I thought one of the purposes of having multiple reviews is so that we can get different points of view on a game.
L0X1AS: how do you send someone an invite
mrkestep: also, people can post thoughts on a review underneath it, and maybe that might get people more involved or something.. i dunno
SkinnyWhiteDork: Hey guys, just got here so what have I missed
Stromvogel: We're talking reviews now.
jhinkle1114: mljones, that is a great idea. EGM magazine has the little profiles right before the reviews everymonth
Darknght16: the problem though is, it tends to be hard enough to keep track of getting at least one person reviewing a game, so imagine what it takes to actually get multiple reviews of a game
Darknght16: especially wish so much software out there to cover
Darknght16: err with
Darknght16: not wish
mljones99: true Strom, but I was thinking in terms of a reader who might not want to read several reviews. Someone who would rather read 1 review from someone of similar tastes
Stromvogel: That was my next quesion.
Stromvogel: mljones: Cool.
mrkestep: yeah, it will take time, and we don't necesarily have to have more than one review of each game, but it miight be beneficial
L0X1AS: Seagraves is on his way shortly
jhinkle1114: yeah, for smaller games one or two reviews will do, with the bigger ones we'd need more, but it will also likely be easier to find people willing to do them
Darknght16: jhinkle; it's not as easy as you may think it is
Darknght16: people may be willing but actually getting them from the person is another question
jhinkle1114: mljones, that's why you'd have one comprehensive review from a fan of the genre, and then some shorter reviews by others, a reader can just read the one long review if they want, or they could also delve into the shorter reviews for
jhinkle1114: more opions
Stromvogel: It'll be easier to get folks to review games in genres they like...
Stromvogel: They're more likely to play it a lot.
MartianKerygma: Dark is right. People make promises and don't come through all the time on the Web
mljones99: ah ok, i'm folowing ya...
mljones99: following
jhinkle1114: I know it won't be easy Darkknight, that's why I said in the thread that it would be good to have a fairly large staff of contributing writers rather than a small group of "regulars"
mljones99: I'm doing like 3 things at once so i am trying my hardest to keep up
SkinnyWhiteDork: I'm trying to figure out where we are
Stromvogel: jhinkle is right.
mrkestep: we are discussing how reviews should be
SkinnyWhiteDork: ok, thanks
mrkestep: np
jhinkle1114: just discussing possiblilities for how to handle reviews
Darknght16: the best thing you should do to keep track of things is probably have a chart accessible to the staff so that you can see who has what covered
Stromvogel: We can have a lot of contributing writers and core staff writers
jhinkle1114: that's what I mean
mrkestep: that sounds good
L0X1AS: I think we section it with normals that 'like' the genre and break it down from there with the core writers
Stromvogel: I have a spreadsheet of who's interested and what systems they own... it wouldn't be hard to make one for reviews.
MartianKerygma: I think the review software should be adapted from the stuff written by Adam Tyner (ctyner) from DVD Talk. It has great features for signing up for promotional copies, etc.
Stromvogel: jhinkle: I was agreeing with you.
jhinkle1114: yeah it would definitely have to be organized. Maybe hold a chat a few times a week to see what everyone is working on, and those that can make it could just send and e-mail so the editors can keep a "budget" of what reviews, stori
jhinkle1114: es etc. are being worked on
MartianKerygma: The output would obviously have to be reworked
mljones99: kinda like having a virtual staff meeting
Stromvogel: jhinkle: I think this site is gonna need several editors.
mljones99: just to make sure everybodys not out reviewing the same game
mljones99: hehe
jhinkle1114: yep that's why I typed editors rather than editor
Stromvogel: mljones: And, that way, staff and editors are always on the same page.
mljones99: yep, exactly
mrkestep: what we could also do is have the core reviewer rate it, and the other people on the staff can rate it, and give BRIEF comments on it, and give it a rating
MartianKerygma: The best way to keep it structured is a list online, where people sign up for games, rather than a time-consuming meeting every week or so
Stromvogel: Martian: That's a good idea, too.
Darknght16: plus a commitment to a deadline of when they will submit the review
jhinkle1114: yep I work at a newspaper and the editors have a meeting everyday, the staff just has to put what the are working on in a "budget file" and then they discuss it and make their plans, the chat meetings wood be someting like this
mljones99: Thats cool
Darknght16: it's harder to get everyone to chat at the same time when everyone is from all over the place and have other commitments
MartianKerygma: Exactly.
Stromvogel: Dark: This will have to be a priority.
L0X1AS: that's the major thing now
Darknght16: you can't expect people to make this a priority =)
mrkestep: what is the timeframe for the actual site to go up?
L0X1AS: finding people who have the time to make this a priority
jhinkle1114: yeah, but not everyone has to make it, the writers can send e-mails and as long as some of the editors are in the meeting it should be fine
SkinnyWhiteDork: Are we going to do previews of upcoming games? sorry if this has been discussed but I'm catching up
Stromvogel: Chats and phone conversations are going to be essential to getting this off the ground.
MartianKerygma: That would mean we would have to get preview copies...
Darknght16: martian; which is not easy
SkinnyWhiteDork: haha, true
MartianKerygma: Exactly
AgtFox25: ok
Darknght16: you have to be established for most places to start sending you betas
Stromvogel: Maybe in the future. But i think we'll have enough to do just to get things up and running.
jhinkle1114: you could do interviews and run brief previews on what the plot of the game is, what the control's like etc.
MartianKerygma: I figure we have a leg up simply because of the connection to DVD Talk... a sort of reputation
AgtFox25: I can only stay around for a little bit...have to run off and do something @7:30pm CT
mrkestep: well what we could have is a release list, but im not sure about the actual previews
Stromvogel: Martian is right...
Darknght16: martian; well heh dvdtalk might not have a reputation among gaming pr companies, so it might mean nothing
Stromvogel: The DVDTalk name will open some doors.
jhinkle1114: we should definitely have release dates pages, we already have threads in the forum, maybe the people updating the threads would be willing to update the release dates page for the respective systems
mljones99: I don' t think previews should be as important right at the beginning but if we do happen to get some preview copies then lets do it
MartianKerygma: Dark, there's a difference. I mean, a line from one of the reviews was used nationally in the ad campaign for the Ep1 DVD

-end part 1-

Ratings

Darknght16: speaking of scoring, should we decide now what type of scoring system to use?
SkinnyWhiteDork: well, I know we want to be different but I like gamespots scoring system, simple and to the point
jhinkle1114: x/10 scale, rate the games in categories and then overall would be my suggestions
Stromvogel: Why don't we use DVDTalk's star system?
Darknght16: ok on an x/10 scale, what denotes average, a 5 or a 7?
MartianKerygma: Something simple, but not too simple. I can't stand the sites/magazines that score based on 27 things. I think the traditional 5 things or so are good, and a rating scale of some sort
Darknght16: people often confuse the scales
mljones99: i'm down with the star system
Stromvogel: We can still use the categories.
jhinkle1114: graphics, sound, innovation, replay, and overall would be my picks for the categories
Darknght16: so while we may think a game is average at 5, they may think it's a failure
Stromvogel: that other sites use.
L0X1AS: how well are we going to tie in the forums....DVDTalk is a major forum driven site for me...however I don't feel that for a game site
AgtFox25: that sounds like a good idea...how will we go about deciding who gets to write the in-depth review though
Finshee: Hey guys, sorry I'm late. My roommate didn't even have AOL on his comp.
Finshee: lam.
Darknght16: i think if you use a broader scale, it's easier to decide
Stromvogel: Fin: Welcome
L0X1AS: it would be the same
Darknght16: something like a thumbs up, or thumbs down or neutral would leave it more important to the wording of the review than people trying to interpret a score
MartianKerygma: Dark... hard to confuse a scale when the total is on the right, and an explanation is a click away
Finshee: what have I missed?
jhinkle1114: Geoff said he wanted to keep the forum in with the DVD talk forums, he doesn't want to manage 2 databases
Darknght16: martian; you'd be surprised how many people don't bother paying attention to what the scale means
MartianKerygma: You could have separate forums but connect the databases to each other
Finshee: josh - that's understandable. People would have to sign up again, right?
L0X1AS: well i mean more on a content base
jhinkle1114: we can't cater the site to stupid people though
jhinkle1114: yep, that was another point Geoff made in his new thread
Finshee: ahhh..makes sense.
Darknght16: jhinkle; not to be mean, but most people who do read the site will be rather stupid
SkinnyWhiteDork: are we going to be able to make new forums, if so we should have one for each system and maybe a general old school one
MartianKerygma: I think we could divide the classic systems up
jhinkle1114: that's what I'm hoping, but it, and all the other decisions, are ultimately up to Geoff
Finshee: I think we should have Xbox, PS2, Gamecube, PSX, DC, and Classic Video Games probably.
Finshee: oh, and handhelds
Stromvogel: That's be quite a few forums.
Darknght16: forum shouldn't be something we're discussing right now =)
Finshee: although I just sold my GBA
jhinkle1114: I don't think the classic forum need divided, not enough people are interested in them
SkinnyWhiteDork: Good point Dark, what topic are we trying to nail right now
Stromvogel: We were discussing reviews.
AgtFox25: I think forum decisions will be up to Geoff to tell you the truth
Finshee: Stromvogel is right.
Finshee: We should tackle the key elements first.
Stromvogel: What was decided about reviews?
Finshee: unfortunatley, I missed the beginning
L0X1AS: sorry to change the subject
MartianKerygma: Where is Geoff, anyway? Is he coming?
SkinnyWhiteDork: finshee, it all started with reviews
SkinnyWhiteDork: so we still are working on that
Finshee: alright. are we still doing the multiple reviewer deal?
jhinkle1114: I think we've got the reviews pretty much down, 1 Indepth, some shorter ones, a scale system with ratings in categories and an overall score
AgtFox25: I think we should concentrate on reviews, previews, articles, editing, etc.
Stromvogel: Martian: Dunno, but I'm going to post this on CVCTalk.
Stromvogel: er, DVD Talk.
Finshee: what CVCtalk/
Finshee: oooh, gotchya!
SkinnyWhiteDork: CVCTalk is the gaming website
Darknght16: i really think the score system is played out and misinterpreted too often speaking from experience, i think we should develop a more unique scoring system
Finshee: oh I see
SkinnyWhiteDork: So throw out some ideas than Dark
mljones99: I like the 1 in depth and multiple shorter ones review system
Finshee: Speaking of scoring - not a fan of the 10 point scale here. Too many games get too high of scores.
MartianKerygma: What do you suggest
Stromvogel: Dark: Do you have anything in mind?
Darknght16: i've got two ideas
mljones99: I really don't care for a score system
AgtFox25: a 100 scale
Stromvogel: Fin: We discussed using a star system like DVDTalk.
jhinkle1114: as long as it has a lot of flexibility I'm fine with it, Thumbs up, Thumbs down, and neutral is too limited in my mind
mrkestep: how about instead of have scores, just say.. forget it, rental, mustbuy...etc
Finshee: 1-5 strom/
Finshee: ?
jhinkle1114: with the amount of games out there you need something to differentiate between all of them
L0X1AS: thought the stars were for the reviewers?
AgtFox25: yeah, we could keep the DVDTalk system of Recommendations
SkinnyWhiteDork: my input is when I see 10 point a 7 point game is average when I look at it and a 5 is below, but thats me, do any of you see it that way
Darknght16: we have have a three way scale where you have thumbs up, neutral, thumbs down, or we can have one that is a bit more descriptive, and have it rated as must buy, good, average, not so great, stay away
mrkestep: so people wouldn't interpret the scores wrong
Finshee: mrkestpe - that would be good for overall, but you can't judge something like graphics that way.
Darknght16: but the key is not to use that second scale as an A-F or 1-5 grading
mrkestep: yeah
Darknght16: but use those words
Darknght16: then it weighs more on the wording of the review and less misinterpretation of what we are trying to say
mljones99: if we are going to have a scale it should be in words... not a number score
mljones99: i agree with Dark on teh score system
SkinnyWhiteDork: I like the more descriptive one
MartianKerygma: A number score, accompanied by explanations.
Stromvogel: So, we'd rate the things in the 5 categories with stars, then end with "must buy" ,"rent", etc.?
jhinkle1114: a scale is a scale whether it is words or numbers IMO
Finshee: yeah.
SkinnyWhiteDork: just like the dvd review son dvdtalk, like rent, must own, etc
Darknght16: martian; it usually never works like that IMO
AgtFox25: have star ratings for Graphics, Gameplay, Sound, Multiplayer (if applicable), Fun Factor (these are just ideas)...then have VideoGame Talk Must Buy, Highly Recommended, Recommended, Rent, Don't Touch (again, just ideas)
Finshee: But I think we'd go more in depth than just with #s.
mrkestep: not many people are going to say to their friends the description, along with the score, they would just say the score..
Stromvogel: Yeah.
jhinkle1114: exaclty
AgtFox25: you may also give an overall star rating along with the classification
Stromvogel: "VGTalk rated *blank* a must-buy..."
MartianKerygma: Right. "VG Talk said X game has spectacular rendering!!"
jhinkle1114: people say "this game got a 10 in EGM" they don't discuss what the reviewers actually said
Darknght16: i really think we should have a wording great, saying it's a must buy is pretty clear, saying it's good is pretty clear, saying it's average is pretty clear, but if we give it a score, it's open to all sorts of interpretations
Finshee: but we can change that
Finshee: josh
Darknght16: i've reviewed games with all sorts of scoring systems, and really they all get misinterpreted
AgtFox25: I mean, there's DVDs that actually come up to a 4 star rating if you equal them all out that go to DVD Talk Collector's club
mrkestep: im really liking the idea of actually saying the things instead of giving a score
SkinnyWhiteDork: like I said and someone else said too, a 5 could be average or bad, its too open
jhinkle1114: I don't think so, people just don't remember the details after reading it, so when telling their friends they are only going to remember the final rating, be it 10/10, "must buy" or what ever, so we need a good system
Stromvogel: Mrk: So am I.
Darknght16: skinny; exactly
MartianKerygma: If it's that big of an issue, just put a brief statement about how it works underneath
Darknght16: EGM scores on a 1-10 scale with 5 being average, but being close friends with egm, i hear all the horror stories who interpret a 5 as being ****
Darknght16: martian; again, nobody reads that, they read the score
Stromvogel: The bottom line is, after all, is this game worth buying?
Finshee: Yeah, I'd say rating 1-10 is out of the question.
MartianKerygma: That's their problem?
SkinnyWhiteDork: I second that
AgtFox25: so, you guys like my idea (you can do away with the different star ratings
jhinkle1114: the word system is fine, as long as there are several options, thumbs up, thumbs down, and neutral is to limited
Stromvogel: I think we should adopt the DVD Talk rating system.
Darknght16: martian; but why make it their problem? we could eliminate it all together and use something that is more difinitive
Finshee: I think the stars would be good, with empty stars accompanying them. You know what I mean? That way people could TELL that it is out of 5
SkinnyWhiteDork: I like the detail word system
jhinkle1114: there's nothing to differentiate the great games from the good, and the mediocre games from the crappy with that system
MartianKerygma: If people don't like to read, what makes you think they'll come to VGT instead of going to IGN, which uses ratings
mrkestep: i just get tired of EVERYBODY having the same system, x/5, /10, or x/100, is basically the same thing.. we need to break out of the standard mold and come up with something new, rather than something anybody can see at a different
mrkestep: site
MartianKerygma: Assuming it's still in business...
Finshee: mrk - good point.
Finshee: very good point.
Stromvogel: Especially since we're going to strive to be different from everyone else.
SkinnyWhiteDork: Why don't we sort out who wants what so we can start making decisions
AgtFox25: Thumbs up/Thumbs down is too cliche
mrkestep: instead of borrowing other people's ideas. make our own..
Stromvogel: Well, we can't really make decisions...
Stromvogel: That's for Geoff to do.
Finshee: I'm with mrk...is that mark? so I can just say that?
jhinkle1114: so lets come up with a word based with at least 5 options or just use 5 stars with the empty ones beside them as suggested above
SkinnyWhiteDork: this is true, strom
mrkestep: yeah, its mark, first, middle initials.. last name
L0X1AS: but we can say this is a concensus, how do you feel
Darknght16: Must Buy, Good, Average, Not So Good, Stay Away
mljones99: i like dark's idea
Stromvogel: Dark's makes sense.
MartianKerygma: Doesn't that equal 1-5?
Finshee: but with darknight's idea, it's REALLY the same as the #s.
jhinkle1114: Must Buy, Good, Rent First, (something), Avoid at all costs
Darknght16: martian; yes, but it's less to interpretate if we use the words over the #
mrkestep: well instead of 1/5, we are actually saying how it is, instead of numbers
Darknght16: it could also mean an A-F system
jhinkle1114: yes but it makes the rating more descriptive than a 1-5 and is much clearer
Darknght16: but the wording is more specific
Stromvogel: But dark's isn' open to interpretation. That's what I like.
Finshee: alright, but that's only for overall.
Stromvogel: er, josh.
Finshee: you can't say : graphics : must buy
MartianKerygma: A grading scale, then, from A-F isn't open to interpretation
Darknght16: i mean i gave Rogue Squadron 2: Rogue Leader a B+ and I got all sorts of hell for it
MartianKerygma: I mean, unless they didn't go to school
jhinkle1114: what else is there to do, I mean you've got to have enough options to fairly rate the games. There are great games, good games, average games, ok games, and crappy games. That's 5 types and you need at least 5 ratings to be able
jhinkle1114: to properly describe them
SkinnyWhiteDork: josh, what's your idea again?
Finshee: ?
MartianKerygma: I don't know how often the "crappy" option would be exercised. If people see a negative rating like that, statistically, they don't read the review
MartianKerygma: I say that based on DVD Talk
jhinkle1114: for the overall have 5 words for the ratings like Must Buy, Good, Average, (something), Avoid At All Costs, and then just do a 1-5 or something rating for the categories like graphics
Stromvogel: Makes sense to me.
mljones99: works for me
Darknght16: jhinkle; that's not a bad idea
MartianKerygma: IOW, DVD Talk's system
Finshee: so basically - the dvdtalk rating system.
Finshee: martian - you beat me too it
Stromvogel: Fin: Yeah.
mrkestep: as long as the final rating is in wording, all the other sub-catagories can be up for anything
Finshee: but of course we'd go more in-depth, much like dvdtalk
jhinkle1114: well some games are crappy, we could just do short reviews for them as there probably isn't enough interest in crappy games to justify doing a full length revies.
Stromvogel: Right.
jhinkle1114: sorry, i've never read the dvd talk revies
jhinkle1114: reviews
Darknght16: jhinkle; unless it's a major game, like The Bouncer
MartianKerygma: Actually...
Stromvogel: That's why I suggested the DVDtalk rating system. It's unique AND it provides continuity.
MartianKerygma: Sometime crappy games get the longest reviews.
Finshee: yeah because you have to bash em
MartianKerygma: But, assuming we get preview copies, you don't want to insult them to the point where they stop sending you stuff
Darknght16: and i've clocked myself
mrkestep: i don't even know what mine is
Finshee: well of course. you have to be professional.
Finshee: provide constructive criticism,
Darknght16: martian; you can't let that be a determining factor though
jhinkle1114: I don't think many people would rate the Bouncer as crappy. I mean crappy would correspond basically with 0-1 on a 0-5 scale, I'd say most major games would at least fall in the category in between Average and Avoid at all costs
Stromvogel: There's a fine line... unless Spice World II comes across your desk...
Darknght16: cuz then you are borderline of bthe so called being paid off
mrkestep: as long as the reviewer has a reason, and backing to what they say, it should be fine.. but i guess there is a point that is too much
MartianKerygma: Well, we've just got to be realistic. That's one of the reasons many sites are unwilling to be negative on a game
MartianKerygma: Or, at least, overtly negative
SkinnyWhiteDork: how do you factor in the number ratings to get the overall, what makes a game overall good, do you average the numbers and round?
Finshee: so we have this settled then, pretty much, eh?
Finshee: I mean, HOW we do the reviews anyway.
Finshee: skinny - I think there's the "tilt" factor that gamespot covers.
jhinkle1114: you have to be professional, but you can't be afraid to write negative reviews for fear of losing preview copies or advertising, that's not journalism
MartianKerygma: We never settled how reviewers would sign up for reviews
Stromvogel: SWDork: It would depend on the reviewer. NFL 2K2 isn't high on innovation, but if you like football, it's a must buy.
Finshee: one game may not have good graphics or sound, or even control. But if it's the funnest thing in history, it's a must buy
SkinnyWhiteDork: I thought that was the readers tilt fin
MartianKerygma: A system based on DVD Talk's, or something different?
Stromvogel: How do people on DVDTalk sign up for reviews?
MartianKerygma: Finshee -- Castlevania!
Finshee: hehe, yep.
L0X1AS: and the # ratings don't necessarily average the overall score
jhinkle1114: no you don't average them, you just rate each category and then give the game the overall word score you think it deserves based on your time spent playing it
SkinnyWhiteDork: oh, alright
Finshee: almost all of the old nintendo games fall in that category.
Finshee:
MartianKerygma: They are registered as reviewers, and when preview copies are opened up to them, they get an e-mail... they check the section, and have the opportunity to choose their game
MartianKerygma: Online
mrkestep: i guess it's mostly how fun it is, how long it will last, and the overall "feel" of the game.. i would guess that would amount to the total score
tromvogel: Martian: That sounds good...
Finshee: that part sounds good martian.
Finshee: but how do we determine who is a reviewer?
MartianKerygma: It's first come, first serve, of course
jhinkle1114: let some people write reviews, if they are good, make them a reviewer, if not turn them away
L0X1AS: are we splitting the genres?
Stromvogel: Following our idea for "specialists" to review games in a genre, would all of the people who are fans of a genre be grouped together?
MartianKerygma: Yes
mrkestep: yeah, i guess send a sample of a review of a game, or more than one.. and i geuss geoff or somebody says its a good review
SkinnyWhiteDork: well, you got to review for a system you own, that's important, and you need to be a decent writer
MartianKerygma: I was saying yes to LOXIAS, btw
Finshee: Yeah, the system owning is an obvious way of narrowing the field down.
L0X1AS: who and how do we decide after that

SkinnyWhiteDork: Is the format of the webpage going to be similar to dvdtalk or something completly different\
SkinnyWhiteDork: I think the goal is simplicity but not making it dull,
Stromvogel: Pics OK, media no.
Stromvogel:
SkinnyWhiteDork: finshee, that what editors are for///hehe...j/k
Finshee: yeah, the videos are what hog bandwith like you wouldn't believe.
Finshee: True, but come on!
jhinkle1114: and obI think we should sort of take a plantgamecube approach. I don't mean copy anything. Just do lots of reviews, impressions, editorials, Q&A etc. and mostly just leave the news to the big sites.
Stromvogel: BTW, my business partner wants to help with graphics and whatnot, but he couldn't join in on the chat.
MartianKerygma: I think someone said something about IGN encoding entire games in QuickTime, which was hilarious and so true
Stromvogel: That eats up a lot of bandwith, and makes VGTalk expensive.
SkinnyWhiteDork: I have never seen planet gamecube, I am surfing over there now
Stromvogel: Did we decide anything else?
mljones99: sort of off topic: so if we get this up and going does that mean we can get free E3 passes?
Finshee: are we going to use the mock layout the geoff made?
jhinkle1114: it doesn't have the greatest layout, but it does a good job of offering a lot of opinoins nad basically just points people to other sites for news
Darknght16: mljones; no
Stromvogel: mljones: If we get big enough, probably.
jhinkle1114: The layout will definitely be Geoffs call
Finshee: we're getting ahead of ourselves kids!
Darknght16: getting into E3 as an online site is pretty hard now
Darknght16: they're totally cracking down
Finshee: who cares.
Finshee: It'd be nice, but it's not needed.
Darknght16: still not impossible
Stromvogel: Let's focus on the task at hand.
Darknght16: but it's so much more of a pain
MartianKerygma: I think we should probably create a custom layout
Finshee: I don't know, I think we should keep a similar layout at least.
Finshee: the one geoff made was nice I thought.
Stromvogel: Did we decide anything else besides the reviews and graphics?
mljones99: I actually kinda liked that old beta version geoff posted
jhinkle1114: We'll we've come up with the review system, said what we want to do I guess we should just talk about the other facets of the site
Finshee: ml - that's what I'm talkin about.
Stromvogel: I think VGTalk should lokk similar, but not the same.
L0X1AS: as long as it's clean and simple I don't care
Stromvogel: I hate a lot of dancing doodads on the page.
Finshee: word
Finshee: plus, the more gimmicks, the slower the site.
Stromvogel: For our goals, a simple, effective layout would suffice.
Finshee: such as the beta version
Darknght16: i think someone should create a beta layout and then we go from there
MartianKerygma: I just think the layout is too busy
Stromvogel: Yeah.
mljones99: So how we gonna brek the site up? By system? then have an editor for each section (system) and the a group of staff under the editor
mljones99: ?
Darknght16: it's kind of hard to decide unless we have a working frame, then we can add and change what we want
jhinkle1114: copieI say we should have impressions, basically a first play description to tide people over till the reviews are done, editorials on issues in the gaming world, a Q&A section, and eventually previews
jhinkle1114: That sounds good ML
jhinkle1114: have a front page broken into sections, somethng like the FGN Online with much snappier layout maybe
Finshee: The MOST important thing to remember is....
Finshee: DON'T sell out. Don't get thousands of banners popping up, and DON'T start charging for something that should be free.
SkinnyWhiteDork: Finshee, all good points, I like that, I hate pop ups
jhinkle1114: no kidding, IGN is going to die quickly if they don't change their recent practices
jhinkle1114: later
mrkestep: ill check out the transcript of this after it's been posted
Finshee: IGN is WEAK nowadays.
jhinkle1114: and obI think we should sort of take a plantgamecube approach. I don't mean copy anything. Just do lots of reviews, impressions, editorials, Q&A etc. and mostly just leave the news to the big sites.
mljones99: well, if this meeting is ajurned... then I am going to jet to the grovery store... i'm gettign hungry
mljones99: grocery
Stromvogel: We are adjourned.
MartianKerygma: OK, talk to everyone later
mljones99: alright, well, it was nice talking with you guys... see you at the next meeting after we run this all by geoff
Stromvogel: See ya later.
L0X1AS: cool..later
Stromvogel: I'll put this up tomorrow.

Man, I'm sorry I missed the chat. A lot of good points were brought up. From the looks of it, so far I'd visit a game site like that everyday.

I would like to contribute to the site. I have experience in both writing game reviews and articles (usually controversial) about the industry. If there are any editor or organizer spots open, I'm sure that I can do a wonderful job at that as well.

That looks like alot to read. Anyone who participated in the chat have key points that were made?

I wasn't able to make the chat, but I'd love to help out, so please throw my name into the hat. Based on the comments made in the thread about PC gaming, there's a deluge of strategy game players around here. I could fill that niche, and help out in the Gamecube arena as well. Reviews/Editorials/Whatever.

If there's room for such a thing, what I'd love to do is pen a humor column (similiar to Joe Queenan's writings in Movieline but with a videogame feel). Stuff like "Overused Video Game Plots" that sort of thing. This would be my top choice.

I'd love to read articles like that.

Reviews
-One detailed review, several shorter reviews by staff (if possible)
-Reader reviews would be good.
-Star System similar to Amazon.com, in which frequent reader eviewers would be noted.

Ratings
-Final Game Ratings should be rated "must buy, good, average, not so great, stay away", or words to that effect
-Games should be rated in 5 categories: graphics, sound, innovation, replay, and overall, or something to that effect. The categories would use a star rating system (1-5 stars)
-Final rating is not an average.

Site Apperance
-Should be simple, easy to navigate
-Tons of movies not necessary
-Try to structure VGTalk so premium memberships and pop-up ads aren't needed to sustain it.

I think those are the main points. Did I miss anything?

BTW, in the Chat, I was Stromvogel, for those keeping score.

Chat seemed edited quite a bit. Did you condense it for relevance?

I'm more than willing to contribute to the writing and/or editing. I assume Geoff will set up some sort of system for choosing the writers, so I'll probably just stand in the shadows until that time.

I will make one suggestion, though: I'd like to see authors revist their reviews. It's often the case that games are rushed out the door and are riddled with bugs, or are lacking major features. This negatively impacts the review, but subsequent patches that could change the score (to stabilize the game or add important gameplay elements) should be taken into account when they're released. If a system was in place to allow later revisions, a lot of (eventual) good games could be saved from slipping through the cracks.

I would also like to be invovlved in this site, as I mentioned before. I am interested in doing reviews, occacsional reviews on imports, and some classic gaming also. I am probably the definiton of unbiased except when it comes to Tomb Raider . I used to have very limited contacts as far as reps that I knew pretty well that would tell me things that they wouldn't tell others, but most of those have faded after time.

I don't care who writes or reviews what, I just want a seperate forum for classic arcade/MAME, and maybe some old C64 and Atari 2600 thrown in for kicks. You know, old school.

That stuff get pushed out by all of the new console crap these days.

I figure I'll enter now and jam a stick in the spokes. Is there really such a big video game crowd here to warrant a video game specific site? If it's consistently linked with DVDTalk, it wouldn't be so bad, but even then, wouldn't it be costly to rent another server, have someone to make the website, bandwith, etc, etc... You would have to basically find volunteers to write for you and to make the site as well... From what we've all seen over the past few years, videogame sites have been dying at a steady rate (with IGN well on its way), what would make videogametalk any different than the others? Perhaps if you run it like you do here it would have a chance, but here it's only forums... unless you're planning on having a site where there is nothing available for downloads and it's just articles, reviews and such...

I don't know, guess I'm just skeptic.

I like the rating system you guys figured out. I would like to add in something since you guys were saying you want the rating system to be unique. Maybe this is similar to Gamespot's "Tilt" score but there should be an extra overall category for those who arent die-hard fans of the genre. For example:

Gran Turismo 3: Must buy
For those who arent racing fans: 4/5 since it's a simulation and could be frustrating for a non-fan of the genre.

I say this because I find myself reading a lot of reviews from die-hard fans of the genre. If I'm not a huge rpg fan and the reviewer obviously is, his review wouldnt mean AS much to me as someone who isnt a fan of the genre. The reviewer should realize this and set aside a quick overall score for why he thinks non-fans of the genre would enjoy the game, etc.

I think that videogame talk--based on the quality of people who frequent dvdtalk--can be a great success and add diversity to an increasingly childish, fanboyish, money-centered game sites we see too often. I sometimes go to the boards on ign and I cannot stay there for more than one minute because I can't bear hearing idiotic rants about my console being better than your console and why a certain game got only 9.7 in the reviews.

That said, I think videogametalk.com can offer a number of diverse voices to a sophisticated discussion of video and computer games. I believe it can be a site where one need not be an "expert" in order to offer opinions and recieve information, and I believe it can be a forum where female gamers (there are many more than most people realize) will not be intimidated (since I am certain that videgametalk.com will not have extended discussions about the size of the heroine's boobs ). It could be a forum open to all to all, simply to discuss the love and frustrations of gaming. Downloads can be had at gamestop--but for intellectual discussion I would certainly visit videgametalk.com.

If this site does get off its feet, I would be interested in writing review for Gamecube games and accessories.

The video game forum gets alot of traffic. More so than Books, music, and possibly TVtalk...

And with the influx of new life into console gaming, i think the time is right to see if it can float on its own as a seperate site.

Clark: Actually I find the discussion in here pretty slow. Sure it's more popular than some of the other forum topics in here, but compared to your average gaming forum, it's really slow.

Soul: I've never been a fan of the GameSpot tilt system since I've never been able to really interpret the exact meaning and how it reflects on a score. I think a bio of the person is probably better than the tilt. I understand what you mean, but I think that's probably left to a profile of a person or just mentioning it in the review.

Dark: I never quite understood the tilt system either which is why I showed some reluctance in comparing it to that. You're right; bios are a great idea. I was just thinking maybe this would be a good idea to set the reviewing system apart from others.

I suggested the bio idea in the chat. it think it would be the best way for a reader to determine the tastes of the reviewer

I could try to help out on the technical end if needed. This damn_CIS degree has to come in handy for something.

The video game crowd here would just be the core audience in the beginning. This will be a seperate site and we would have to get new visitors for it to be successful. The only real tie in with DVD Talk will be that Geoff will be in charge of it and that the forums will still be hosted here so he doesn't have to manage two data bases.

This might be a good time to pick up some new readers, as the most popular sites, ign, aren't doing so well and have pissed off tons of people with their pop up ads and making people pay a subscription fee to read many reviews and articles.

I just hope Geoff will be open minded about it and not just make a Video Game version of DVD Talk. No offense, but the main site of DVD Talk is nothing special. I can't even remember the last time I looked at the front page. I just come for the forums, and so do tons of other people. For the Video Game talk site to be successful it will have to be much more informative and offer a lot more variety than DVD Talk does IMO.

JoshHinkle

I agree, i have the Forums bookmarked and i never go to the reviews or front of the site at all. I dont' really care about DVD reviews, because, well, if i like the movie i buy the disk, if i dont' like the movie i dont' buy the disk. BUT... Console gaming is much different, in the sense that I value the reviews and previews of games, cause those are the only unbiased information you get about a game Before it comes out, or even after.

I agree about the EGM style of reviewing someone posted earilier. The review should consist of One MAIN reviewer, and then 3 or 4 sub-reviewers to chime in on an independant note, or to react to what the main reviewer said. And each games reviewer would be different depending on the type of game, and the reviewers' access to it of course.

I think the site is a great idea. DVDtalk is a great site, and i think most gamers out there, hardcore or otherwise, are always in need of a fresh perspective, and new source of info.

I never go to the front page either, just for the forums. But I love the people who come here, and it makes it a very relaxed atmosphere. I am looking forward to the site.