"Smooth as an android's bottom."

I've never hated Season 1, except for the blatantly bad stuff like Code of Honor.

It kinda helps to put yourself in the right mindset if you realize they were basically writing TOS episodes then transplanting the cast and settings. There is a distinctive rhythm to the TOS stories that TNG didn't get away from until well into S2 and then in S3 they really broke away. I've been rewatching TOS lately and the feel is so unique.

I’m actually going through TOS now too. Just watched Space Seed last night. I’ve seen the majority of the episodes, but not all of them.

I'm glad you're watching TOS. That show deserves love.

It's sad how many people blow off TOS for being cheesy and campy. Admittedly the show was not perfect, but it had a LOT of great writing...a long with directing, production (for its time) and even some terrific acting (mainly from Nimoy and Kelley). It was such a watershed television show, and because it's sci fi, other less deserving (IMHO) shows like Seinfeld and The Sopranos will be put much higher on critical lists. But, Star Trek: The Original Series? It was so fucking forward thinking for its time, it was genius-level creative, and the most iconic television series in the history of the medium. (Name one other TV show that has endured in the public imagination for so long, has had as big a cultural impact AND is more iconic. I'll wait)

It's also wonderful how organically it fit with TNG. They may have had a few degrees difference in philosophy, but ultimately the humanistic optimism for the future was a shared feature.

I’ve watched TOS on and off since I was a kid in the early nineties. Watched it in re-runs. I probably haven’t seen every single episode, or at least a bunch of them I haven’t seen in a while. TOS and the TOS movies were my first exposure to Star Trek.

First, a lot of TOS is pretty bad. When I discovered and fell in love with the show as a preteen, I was captivated by every episode. Now, I can see that many of them are a bit idiotic, and the drama is consistently quite simplistic. I can watch almost any episode now and appreciate them for what they were, and I enjoy the characters, but I think it would be a stretch to say a third of them are very good.

Second, I won't argue about how long any show "has endured in the public imagination for so long," but there are many with bigger cultural impacts and are more iconic. I think people in this thread need a reminder that there are A LOT of people who don't give a rat's ass about Star Trek out there.

Off the top of my head, I Love Lucy, (maybe) Gunsmoke, Saturday Night Live, The Simpsons, The Tonight Show, Hill Street Blues, The Mary Tyler Moore Show, and (yes) The Sopranos.

And I think Seinfeld is better than TOS or TNG owing to the density of high quality individual episodes spread across the entire series run. Even TNG fans want to dismiss almost all of the first two seasons and most of the last two.

Third, I just want to be clear that today I am putting up a shelf for my starship models.

I think TOS holds up fairly well when you consider it’s a fifty-five year old show. There is a certain camp factor to it, and you can tell it’s out of the sixties due to certain styles and of course the set designs.

There are quite a few episodes where you can tell they were doing what they could with the budget and were borrowing sets and locations from other shows/films that were on the same lot.

Otherwise though I think the show is enjoyable. If nothing else it’s classic due to the characters. The dynamic of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy is great. The other main crew members are all good too.

Back when the show was on, I was watching the The Best of Both Worlds pt. 1 and noticed for the first time in the credits Michael Piller. You see, Michael Piller was my second cousin, my mom’s first cousin. I had not seen him in a few years. My mom called him up and he arranged for a private tour of the sets. It was during the summer in between seasons but they were shooting. I got to walk around the enterprise and watch them filming episodes (they were separately shooting to different episodes at the time). I stood there like a gaping idiot watching Michael Dorn and Brent Spiner just sitting around making jokes. A truly amazing memory.

^^How cool! Michael Piller was the man who saved TNG and Modern Trek. Be proud of your heritage!

This going to sound like complete bullshit after Sherm's post, but it is the god's honest truth: My mom's cousin's daughter is in that photo above.

Also about TNG:

TNG was like what the Plains Indians were like. They never let any part of the “buffalo” go to waste. One of best examples is the Ferengi. Originally, they were touted to be the big baddies of the series but were shown to be the most pathetic villains in the history of Star Trek in “The Last Outpost” and “The Battle”. But the creative minds on TNG didn’t stop them from using them. They just retooled them into comical villains who would later become to better use still on Deep Space. Also, the Powers that Be on the show decided to come up with the Borg and later, The Cardassians to fill in as the big bad of the series. Q went from being a mustache-twirler in the early seasons to a much more interesting and layered character with an actual character arc.

Other examples include:

“Datalore” a campy adventure featuring a hackneyed evil twin plot. They didn’t let it go to waste and came up with two (IMHO) underrated classic TNG episodes in both “Brothers” and “Silicon Avatar”.

In “Samaratin Snare” Picard mentions his fight with the Nausicaans that led to him having an artificial heart. This would go on to be the centerpiece to the classic episode, “Tapestry”.

“Q Who” led to “The Best of Both Worlds”.

“The Emissary” would go on to great effect as the character of K’ehleyr from that episode is killed in “Reunion” leading to one of the most epic and controversial scenes in TNG history.

And probably the most famous example is “Skin of Evil”. Tasha Yar is murdered pointlessly by the villain of the story ultimately setting up one of the most acclaimed episodes, “Yesterdays Enterprise”. Tasha is then given a chance to have a hero’s death. (Also this poignantly ties into season four’s “Legacy”.)

Tied with that is the often derided pilot episode, “Encounter at Farpoint” setting up one of the greatest (if not the greatest) series finales ever with “All Good Things…” (which snagged them a Hugo)

Hell, even the alien parasite conspiracy in "Conspiracy" gets a mention in "The Drumhead".

The so-called, “bad seasons” of TNG were allowed to be organically linked to the better seasons to make the series one unified whole. Which I think makes the series stronger and more interesting. JMS could do no better.

(See Star Trek: Voyager for the exact opposite of this approach.)

PatD is definitely a glass is half-full kind of guy

I was with you about 95% up until that.

As to that, no. Nope, no way, no no no.

The stuff you mention on TNG was just a drop in the bucket compared to all the tid bits and easter eggs JMS threw in the first season of Babylon 5 alone. Even little things like newspaper headlines on a page (that aren't even discussed by the characters) becoming major plot points later on - the level of detail and connectivity on B5 is unparalleled. And that's because one guy wrote 92 of the 110 episodes (and he touched up the scripts he didn't write to add in little bits that would tie in to other episodes). The consistency there just isn't possible when you have a larger group of writers dividing up the work.

So, no, TNG didn't even come close to tying things together the way B5 did.

That's not bashing, either, as TNG wasn't intended to be that kind of show.

I know you're not bashing TNG. Nor was I trying to downplay JMS's achievements.

I just meant all the work they did to tie everything together on Next Gen (for the most part) worked beautifully. TOS, TNG, and DS9 worked so well (and the three shows linked so well together) due in part to respect for detailed-oriented story continuity and the wonderful phenomenon of serendipity. (Especially, TNG)

One more example:

In the episode "New Ground", Geordi says the following in regards to the Soliton Wave:

"This is going to be like being there to watch Chuck Yeager break the sound barrier or Zefram Cochrane engage the first warp drive!"

Four years later Geordi would be there to see Zefram Cochrane engage the first warp drive in Star Trek: First Contact.

Serendipity was the life blood of the first three Star Trek series.

I love Data's smirk when he feels Riker's face

I just watched the TNG episode "The Defector" which I think is an excellent episode from that strong Season 3 run and noticed two things.

One, when Jarok and Data are talking, Jarok tells Data about Romulan cybernetic reseassrchers, which is contradicted by the ret-con in PICARD that Romulans despise artificial intelligence.

Picard did NOT get caught with his pants down.

TNG is my absolutely favorite TV show of all time. I'm sure a great majority of it's impact on me has to do with the fact that I was a preteen/teen when I really got caught up in it through 4pm weekday reruns. But, it's really the only TV show that I can think of that I would want to live in it's universe. It's such a hopeful, fully fleshed out and engaging universe that it would be a dream to live in. It's one of those really rare pieces of media that provides inspiration for a better tomorrow. It shows a group of people working professionally and through their own unique and individual talents and backgrounds strive towards overcoming any obstacle. That might sound old fashioned but what's wrong with a little inspiration? That never goes out of style. Who cares if the economics of it might not be shown or might not work in real life? And I certainly can live without all the made up interpersonal drama that a lot of shows sometimes dwell on way too much.

That is such an awesome story? How old were you at the time. Do you remember anything else about the tour?

That is such an awesome opportunity. I really wish I was able to be more into the convention scene. I really regret not seeking out opportunities like that. Also one of my biggest entertainment regrets is never going out to Vegas to check out the Star Trek Experience when it was still open. I really wish I had done that. I would have absolutely loved it.

So....who is it? Gates?

Within the context of this being a TV show that wants to present its narrative with maximum dramatic effect, Picard facing off against the Romulans and then revealing Mr Worf's surprise was great, but in universe, it was shitty tactical thinking. The Enterprise had violated the treaty and entered Romulan space; the best thing was to get out as quickly as possible.

I have had this argument with too many people over too many years who point to the same three things: Star Trek 4, that one speech by Picard in Season One of TNG, and what Picard says to Lily in First Contact, but they never want to talk about all the times that humans and Star Fleet personnel are clearly involved in good old fashioned capitalism.
It doesn't bother me if any Trek fan wants to believe that the future is a socialist paradise for humans . . . until they shove that belief in my face.

I'm not related to Bing Crosby and I am not British.

I feel the same way about Atlas Shrugged.

Was it though? At this point there was very little contact between the federation and the Romulans. The Romulans and Klingons are mortal enemies. Seems like it was a good way to get a good look at the enemy while also flexing the power of not only the federation's own tactical and technological advantage but the incredible advantage and strength that the Klingon/Federation alliance brings to the table. Seems like it was a win win situation for Picard.

I'm not sure what your previous arguments involved but for me I realize that the whole no money thing is very fictional to Star Trek and even in universe there are a lot of issues with that statement as there are obviously many many examples of the federation engaging in barter and economics even though you might rarely see "money" changing hands. It's more about the idea of it. What Picard tells Lily. People are no longer tied to money and are free to explore and pursue meaningful contributions to society. I'm about as far from a socialist as you can get but I can appreciate the idea of a society not governed by monetary wealth and love that Star Trek presents that possibility.

Denise Crosby then?

Despite the precaution that Picard took by getting back-up from the Klingons, they entered enemy territory on a reconnaissance mission. As soon as they discovered there was no Romulan base, they should have returned to Federation territory AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. I don't know why you are resisting this fairly normal military procedure: Complete the mission and return to safety asap to avoid capture by, or confrontation with, the enemy.

The argument is that Roddenberry's ideal vision of humanity's social evolution is that it moves beyond (or abandons) capitalism, but the practical reality of Star Trek from episode to episode reveals that is not the case.
" I can appreciate the idea of a society not governed by monetary wealth and love that Star Trek presents that possibility.'
Everybody is in the military!
When Paramount makes 100 episodes of Star Trek about civilians living on earth in the 2300s and nobody has any money, then I'll believe the hype.