Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
05-14-19, 12:59 PM
#226
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
Missandei's death meant the one person who made him HUMAN is gone. Before her, he was just a eunuch soldier trained to kill...that's it. He was dreaming of a life with her after the war. That was all taken from him. That plus his loyalty to Danny means Greyworm has nothing to lose. "Fuck this city..."
People forget...VERY FEW characters on this show are 100 Pure/Good or Rotten/Evil. Even Cersie loved her children like no one else and seemed a great mother. Everyone has a a dark and a light side.
People forget...VERY FEW characters on this show are 100 Pure/Good or Rotten/Evil. Even Cersie loved her children like no one else and seemed a great mother. Everyone has a a dark and a light side.
05-14-19, 01:24 PM
#227
DVD Talk Ruler
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
Missandei's death meant the one person who made him HUMAN is gone. Before her, he was just a eunuch soldier trained to kill...that's it. He was dreaming of a life with her after the war. That was all taken from him. That plus his loyalty to Danny means Greyworm has nothing to lose. "Fuck this city..."
Agree completely. His queen is all he really has to live for at this point and if she's going to continue the fight then he damn sure is also.
05-14-19, 01:32 PM
#228
Moderator
Thread Starter
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
Per GRRM:
Idiocy on the Internet | Not a Blog
Internet journalism is an oxymoron, I am more and more convinced.
Of late it seems there’s a new story about me somewhere on the net every day, or near enough to make no matter. Many get things wrong. For the most part I ignore them. I have better things to do than try and track down every weird rumor or out-and-out fabrication that pops up on some obscure website trolling for traffic.
Every so often, however, one of these stories gains an improbable currency, and just chuckling at the insanity no longer suffices.
That seems to be happening right now. All of a sudden this crazy story about my finishing THE WINDS OF WINTER and A DREAM OF SPRING years ago is popping up everywhere. No, I am not going to provide links. I don’t want to reward purveyors of misinformation with hits.
I will, however, say for the record — no, THE WINDS OF WINTER and A DREAM OF SPRING are not finished. DREAM is not even begun; I am not going to start writing volume seven until I finish volume six
It seems absurd to me that I need to state this. The world is round, the Earth revolves around the sun, water is wet… do I need to say that too? It boggles me that anyone would believe this story, even for an instant. It makes not a whit of sense. Why would I sit for years on completed novels? Why would my publishers — not just here in the US, but all around the world — ever consent to this? They make millions and millions of dollars every time a new Ice & Fire book comes out, as do I. Delaying makes no sense. Why would HBO want the books delayed? The books help create interest in the show, just as the show creates interest in the books.
So… no, the books are not done. HBO did not ask me to delay them. Nor did David & Dan. There is no “deal” to hold back on the books. I assure you, HBO and David & Dan would both have been thrilled and delighted if THE WINDS OF WINTER had been delivered and published four or five years ago… and NO ONE would have been more delighted than me.
I have said it before: don’t believe everything you read on the internet.
Except here, of course.
Of late it seems there’s a new story about me somewhere on the net every day, or near enough to make no matter. Many get things wrong. For the most part I ignore them. I have better things to do than try and track down every weird rumor or out-and-out fabrication that pops up on some obscure website trolling for traffic.
Every so often, however, one of these stories gains an improbable currency, and just chuckling at the insanity no longer suffices.
That seems to be happening right now. All of a sudden this crazy story about my finishing THE WINDS OF WINTER and A DREAM OF SPRING years ago is popping up everywhere. No, I am not going to provide links. I don’t want to reward purveyors of misinformation with hits.
I will, however, say for the record — no, THE WINDS OF WINTER and A DREAM OF SPRING are not finished. DREAM is not even begun; I am not going to start writing volume seven until I finish volume six
It seems absurd to me that I need to state this. The world is round, the Earth revolves around the sun, water is wet… do I need to say that too? It boggles me that anyone would believe this story, even for an instant. It makes not a whit of sense. Why would I sit for years on completed novels? Why would my publishers — not just here in the US, but all around the world — ever consent to this? They make millions and millions of dollars every time a new Ice & Fire book comes out, as do I. Delaying makes no sense. Why would HBO want the books delayed? The books help create interest in the show, just as the show creates interest in the books.
So… no, the books are not done. HBO did not ask me to delay them. Nor did David & Dan. There is no “deal” to hold back on the books. I assure you, HBO and David & Dan would both have been thrilled and delighted if THE WINDS OF WINTER had been delivered and published four or five years ago… and NO ONE would have been more delighted than me.
I have said it before: don’t believe everything you read on the internet.
Except here, of course.
05-14-19, 03:44 PM
#229
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
People were really surprised enough to swear off the show over the heel turn? It's the best kind of heel turn too, where the person doesn't believe they're turning heel and can justify it in their head a dozen of different ways.
I thought Jaimie was going to ring the bells, and that would be a false sign of surrender; stupid Jon Snow would have his troops stand down only to get ambushed, and then Dany would lose it. But this way works too.
Lots of nitpicks because they're rushing through, though:
I think Arya tries to kill Dany (with her instant teleportation + backstab skill), fails, and that forces Jon to finally turn on Dany. I just don't see her taking out both the Night King and Dany (and then surviving). But they need that dragon after Dany's death because otherwise Jon's going to have a short reign with all the Dothraki and Unsullied there. Unless Dorne is finally going to send some aid and side with him or something. For all that Dany doesn't have allies, if Jon turns on her she still has significant forces, including the Iron Islands, on her side.
I also think he has to survive dragon fire at least once for people to believe in his legacy, because otherwise where's the proof?
I thought Jaimie was going to ring the bells, and that would be a false sign of surrender; stupid Jon Snow would have his troops stand down only to get ambushed, and then Dany would lose it. But this way works too.
Lots of nitpicks because they're rushing through, though:
- Why the heck didn't Dany send some people to infiltrate the city? I mean the Hound and Arya walked right in, armed and everything, no disguise, just a huge dude armed to the teeth and a girl similarly armed to the teeth.
- The city fighting was too chaotic. There's one scene where Jon and Greyworm are coming up on a bunch of their own men at a standoff with the Lannister men. On the way there, they kill several Lannister soldiers. Like these Lannister soldiers were right behind this huge crowd of Northmen who just let them be behind their backs.
- How did Jaime get away from the camp, through the barricade or whatever and back into the city?
- Ok, for plot reasons Euron landed at the same time and place Jaime was checking on the boat, fine. Why does he attack him again, instead of just sail off with the rest of his Iron Fleet?
- I realize there were innocents there and Dany didn't decide until the last minute to go off, but isn't the Red Keep like near the water? Why not plan to just set it ablaze to end the conflict right away?
- Someone mentioned earlier that Jon is to blame just as much because he betrayed her trust telling his sister. No way. If anything, him not wanting to sleep with her anymore was the deciding factor, he's so noble he couldn't even fake it for the sake of his kingdom. That wouldn't have changed if he had kept his lineage a secret. I'll say he's responsible for Varys's death, sure.
I think Arya tries to kill Dany (with her instant teleportation + backstab skill), fails, and that forces Jon to finally turn on Dany. I just don't see her taking out both the Night King and Dany (and then surviving). But they need that dragon after Dany's death because otherwise Jon's going to have a short reign with all the Dothraki and Unsullied there. Unless Dorne is finally going to send some aid and side with him or something. For all that Dany doesn't have allies, if Jon turns on her she still has significant forces, including the Iron Islands, on her side.
I also think he has to survive dragon fire at least once for people to believe in his legacy, because otherwise where's the proof?
05-14-19, 03:48 PM
#230
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Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
with so little time left, seems like it has to be Jon on the throne? Assuming of course that it isn't Dany.
Anything else (theories/guesses I have heard are Sansa, Tyrion, Arya, Gendry) doesn't seem like it can be set up in one episode.
Anything else (theories/guesses I have heard are Sansa, Tyrion, Arya, Gendry) doesn't seem like it can be set up in one episode.
05-14-19, 03:52 PM
#231
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
Um, is there a throne left to even sit upon?
05-14-19, 03:59 PM
#232
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
It's Jon or it's nobody. No way it's Tyrion, Gendry, or Arya. Sansa may as well keep the North. I don't even think there are direct lines left for any of the major houses outside of the Iron Islands and the North. Dorne, the Reach, the Rock (lannister), the Stormlands (ok, they have Gendry I guess) and the Vale are what, run by cousins at this point?
05-14-19, 04:04 PM
#233
Moderator
Thread Starter
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
It's Jon or it's nobody. No way it's Tyrion, Gendry, or Arya. Sansa may as well keep the North. I don't even think there are direct lines left for any of the major houses outside of the Iron Islands and the North. Dorne, the Reach, the Rock (lannister), the Stormlands (ok, they have Gendry I guess) and the Vale are what, run by cousins at this point?
05-14-19, 04:07 PM
#234
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
Whenever this "subvert expectations" garbage gets to me, I think of Westworld and it's plot-by-trying-to-counter-what-reddit-thinks and I think, it could've been worse.
Does anyone know what Dany promised the Dothraki? Like are they going to just claim land in Westeros if she ends up winning, or are they sailing back home, or what?
Also this episode gave me serious Man of Steel/SvB flashbacks with people (successfully) running away from collapsing buildings, all the rubble, and a PTSDBruce Wayne Arya looking up in the sky at a flying, destructive Superman Dany causing all this carnage and vowing revenge for the people who died.
Does anyone know what Dany promised the Dothraki? Like are they going to just claim land in Westeros if she ends up winning, or are they sailing back home, or what?
Also this episode gave me serious Man of Steel/SvB flashbacks with people (successfully) running away from collapsing buildings, all the rubble, and a PTSD
Last edited by fujishig; 05-14-19 at 04:13 PM.
05-14-19, 04:34 PM
#236
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Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
Also this episode gave me serious Man of Steel/SvB flashbacks with people (successfully) running away from collapsing buildings, all the rubble, and a PTSD
05-14-19, 04:36 PM
#237
DVD Talk Hero - 2023 TOTY Award Winner
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
I can't believe people still are arguing that it wasn't a complete leap.
I have no problem with her eventually going Mad Queen, but I'm sorry, we were not there yet. You can blah blah about foreshadowing, and prophecy (which they have ignored already countless times, so stop acting like that means anything anymore), but I just don't think she was there yet to burn all those innocent people. Yes, absolutely destroying the Red Keep after surrender, I could buy, but just literally flying back and forth and destroying the entirety of King's Landing? No, I'm sorry, but they did not lay enough groundwork for that.
Everyone keeps talking about all the bad shit she's done, about who she's burned, but who do they bring up? All people who either didn't bend the knee, in open defiance, or scumbag slavers and the like. This is a completely different thing, and to say, "oh they didn't love her", I'm not going to side with that as her taking that as a valid reason to light up the whole fucking city, after they have thrown down their weapons and surrender.
I have no problem with her eventually going Mad Queen, but I'm sorry, we were not there yet. You can blah blah about foreshadowing, and prophecy (which they have ignored already countless times, so stop acting like that means anything anymore), but I just don't think she was there yet to burn all those innocent people. Yes, absolutely destroying the Red Keep after surrender, I could buy, but just literally flying back and forth and destroying the entirety of King's Landing? No, I'm sorry, but they did not lay enough groundwork for that.
Everyone keeps talking about all the bad shit she's done, about who she's burned, but who do they bring up? All people who either didn't bend the knee, in open defiance, or scumbag slavers and the like. This is a completely different thing, and to say, "oh they didn't love her", I'm not going to side with that as her taking that as a valid reason to light up the whole fucking city, after they have thrown down their weapons and surrender.
I mostly agree, although I think this has much more to do with the show not dedicating (being able to dedicate) enough time to flesh out the turn. Had there been an interceding episode in which a significant chunk of time had been dedicated to setting this up, I think it would have been much easier to swallow. They laid the foundation, but they didn't erect any walls to support the roof.
05-14-19, 04:38 PM
#238
DVD Talk Hero - 2023 TOTY Award Winner
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
05-14-19, 04:38 PM
#239
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
am I the only one who thinks Tyrion blocked the escape passage for Cersei and Jaime? that rubble was so "clean" and purposefully placed. this would also fulfill the prophecy of Cersei being killed by her younger brother.
05-14-19, 04:40 PM
#240
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
05-14-19, 04:42 PM
#241
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
Though it would be awesome because Sansa would be secretly furious.
05-14-19, 04:49 PM
#242
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
05-14-19, 04:54 PM
#243
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
Dany looked on impassionately as Drago poured molten gold over her brother's head killing him and some expected her to be some delicate flower. She burns up the slaver, the Dothraki leaders, etc. and some still expected her to be some delicate flower. She's shown her bad side over and over. We just didn't want to see it.
The turn would have worked better if the bells hadn't rung I think. Then she could at least have been thinking "well I guess they don't want me to rule them, so time for them to die".
Last edited by Jeremy517; 05-14-19 at 05:08 PM.
05-14-19, 05:01 PM
#244
DVD Talk Hero - 2023 TOTY Award Winner
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't actually wager on the series ending this way, but am just pointing out that it is a possibility. However, I also don't think Gendry is out of the show yet, at least indirectly.
Though it would be awesome because Sansa would be secretly furious.
05-14-19, 05:11 PM
#245
DVD Talk Special Edition
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
It's been so many years since he wrote the last book and he's still not even finished with Book 6, yet keeps writing other novels. IMO, the world he created is just so huge with so many characters, so many moving parts, that he just doesn't know how to finish it.
05-14-19, 05:12 PM
#246
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Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
For starters, she has already changed her mind in a very significant sense. Her last scene with The Hound was that very thing. Her dedication to revenge, her strong sense of unfinished business, was a huge part of why she so blithely swatted away Gendry's marriage proposal to begin with. And its not like the writers would be so clueless (I would hope, anyway) as to have her suddenly put Needle in a drawer, put on a pretty dress, and try and emulate season one Sansa.
Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't actually wager on the series ending this way, but am just pointing out that it is a possibility. However, I also don't think Gendry is out of the show yet, at least indirectly.
Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't actually wager on the series ending this way, but am just pointing out that it is a possibility. However, I also don't think Gendry is out of the show yet, at least indirectly.
05-14-19, 05:42 PM
#247
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Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
They have obviously shown her treating enemies or people who have wronged her harshly. When have the shown her doing that to innocent people? It took about sixty minutes of show time for her to change from someone who wants to save all of the people to killing them after the battle had been won.
Did it though? That she has been keeping "THAT" side of her at bay with the help of those no longer around her has been a thing for some time now...
05-14-19, 05:55 PM
#248
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Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
I don’t watch wrestling, but all this talk of “heel turns” reminds me that a lot of people do. 
05-14-19, 06:16 PM
#249
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
Dany's "turn" didn't bother me because I've always seen her (after the death of horse lord Aquaman) as a cultish, charismatic, narcissistic, borderline lunatic with a God complex. She already acted like a cult leader when she decided to free the slaves without thinking of the consequences (like maybe I'm just throwing them out on the street...). She wanted love/adulation and for her "followers" to embrace her quest for the pointy chair. Whoever didn't flex the patellar tendon got BBQ'd. And she told Jon that if she coudn't have love, she chose fear (to rule).
So I'm not bothered that her torching the whole place seemed too quick. I just see her as having the personality type that just requires one trigger/event in order to go from borderline lunatic to full blown psychopath.
So I'm not bothered that her torching the whole place seemed too quick. I just see her as having the personality type that just requires one trigger/event in order to go from borderline lunatic to full blown psychopath.
05-14-19, 06:28 PM
#250
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Game of Thrones (S8E05) -- 78 minute episode -- “The Bells” -- 5/12/19
Dany's "turn" didn't bother me because I've always seen her (after the death of horse lord Aquaman) as a cultish, charismatic, narcissistic, borderline lunatic with a God complex. She already acted like a cult leader when she decided to free the slaves without thinking of the consequences (like maybe I'm just throwing them out on the street...). She wanted love/adulation and for her "followers" to embrace her quest for the pointy chair. Whoever didn't flex the patellar tendon got BBQ'd. And she told Jon that if she coudn't have love, she chose fear (to rule).
So I'm not bothered that her torching the whole place seemed too quick. I just see her as having the personality type that just requires one trigger/event in order to go from borderline lunatic to full blown psychopath.
So I'm not bothered that her torching the whole place seemed too quick. I just see her as having the personality type that just requires one trigger/event in order to go from borderline lunatic to full blown psychopath.