Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
I think people in these threads are too hard on Ned. Yes he's principled and moral, and yes he's a little naive, but he was trying to do the right thing. Threatening the Queen was stupid, but everything probably would've been okay if Robert hadn't died during his hunting trip. Ned didn't want the queen's kids to be killed like the Targaryon children were, which is a decent thing to do considering it's not their fault who their parents are. Blaming him for the civil war seems a little unfair just because he didn't understand what was happening behind the scenes.
Robert is certainly more to blame for the events happening now than Ned is.
Robert is certainly more to blame for the events happening now than Ned is.
Ned was a good man but his flaws were more than naiveté. He was an inflexible hard-liner that refused to see reason or follow any path that didn't jibe with his "code". Little Finger gave him an out, Renly gave him an out. He turned his nose up at both of them. Had he done what either one told him, there would be no civil war, his family would still be together and he would still have his head.
Last edited by Thrush; 05-08-12 at 06:17 PM.
#152
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
I'd take that to mean that as King, he obviously could have done more, paid more attention, not let things get so out of hand, etc. His job is to protect the people and the realm, and he failed pretty spectacularly at both.
#153
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
No, his mission statement was to "eat, drink, and whore my way to an early grave." I'd consider him a resounding success in that regard.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
As did Littlefinger, Tyrion, and Renly.
RHETORICAL SPECULATION, NOT LOOKING FOR BOOK CONFIRMATION: We still do not know what kind of "agreement" Varys has with the guy from Penthos (Ilyrio, or something like that, his name escapes me...the one who brokered the marage between Khal Drogo and Danerys Targaryen). Watching that scene again, it certainly appeared to me that Varys' "end-game" is seeing Westeros invaded and a Targaryen sitting on the Iron Throne. They haven't followed up in any way, but I think it's something important to remember about Varys.
RHETORICAL SPECULATION, NOT LOOKING FOR BOOK CONFIRMATION: We still do not know what kind of "agreement" Varys has with the guy from Penthos (Ilyrio, or something like that, his name escapes me...the one who brokered the marage between Khal Drogo and Danerys Targaryen). Watching that scene again, it certainly appeared to me that Varys' "end-game" is seeing Westeros invaded and a Targaryen sitting on the Iron Throne. They haven't followed up in any way, but I think it's something important to remember about Varys.
Last edited by Tommy Ceez; 05-08-12 at 06:28 PM.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
Ned was a good man but his flaws were more than naiveté. He was an inflexible hard-liner that refused to see reason or follow any path that didn't jibe with his "code". Little Finger gave him an out, Renly gave him an out. He turned his nose up at both of them. Had he done what either one told him, there would be no civil war, his family would still be together and he would still have his head.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
The Stark males and their weakness for PUSSY/PRETTY FACES makes me SICK!!! Man up BITCHES!!! You're at WAR!!!
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
^that said, I've been wanting to bang/lick Natalia Tena(Osha) since "about a boy".
#159
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
It's rather twisted to claim that the war is Ned's fault. Once he was double crossed, he was willing to confess to both save his daughters and prevent a war. The one person who deserves the most blame for the Civil War is Joffrey. By executing Ned, he absolutely guaranteed a war would happen.
(Now a war with Stannis may have been unavoidable given he already knew he was the true heir, but if that was the only war that happened, it would've been manageable by the realm.)
(Now a war with Stannis may have been unavoidable given he already knew he was the true heir, but if that was the only war that happened, it would've been manageable by the realm.)
#160
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
Rent fled before Ned's death too. Once Robert was gone, he knew he was short for life in King's Landing. I'm sure he would have marshalled Tyrell and Baratheon bannermen just the same. If Ned stayed alive, Robb and the north would have stayed put and Tywin Lannister would have made short work of Renly in the field.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
It's rather twisted to claim that the war is Ned's fault. Once he was double crossed, he was willing to confess to both save his daughters and prevent a war. The one person who deserves the most blame for the Civil War is Joffrey. By executing Ned, he absolutely guaranteed a war would happen.
(Now a war with Stannis may have been unavoidable given he already knew he was the true heir, but if that was the only war that happened, it would've been manageable by the realm.)
(Now a war with Stannis may have been unavoidable given he already knew he was the true heir, but if that was the only war that happened, it would've been manageable by the realm.)
Once the Baratheons learned the truth, Stannis and Renly were going to lay claim to the throne no matter what. The Tyrells once again would have allied themselves with Renly. How "manageable" would that war have been? Especially when you cant count on the Starks or Tully's or Arryns to fight for Joffrey. Thats 5 major houses that are either against or wont fight for Joffrey.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
I know that Cersei helped Robert get himself killed, Ned didn't know that was happening obviously which was why his actions weren't complete idiocy.
Robert is FAR more to blame. Maybe if he'd actually fucked his wife, not spent so much time with whores or taken an interest in his "children" things wouldn't be so messed up. If he hadn't gotten so drunk on a hunting trip (scheduled at a time that the realm was in serious need) that he got himself killed everything would be different.
Acting like having honor is a flaw is kind of silly. There would have been civil war if he'd crowned Renly because Stannis wouldn't have stood for it. Remember, he has a women who shoots shadow assassins out of her vagina... you think that wouldn't have happened with Renly on the Iron Throne? Also, now we're supposed to trust Littlefinger? That worked out so well for Ned with the City Guard. Why wouldn't you think Littlefinger would have stabbed him in the back with that as well? He hates Ned for stealing his Catelyn, he's not gonna turn the kingdom over to him.
Robert is FAR more to blame. Maybe if he'd actually fucked his wife, not spent so much time with whores or taken an interest in his "children" things wouldn't be so messed up. If he hadn't gotten so drunk on a hunting trip (scheduled at a time that the realm was in serious need) that he got himself killed everything would be different.
Ned was a good man but his flaws were more than naiveté. He was an inflexible hard-liner that refused to see reason or follow any path that didn't jibe with his "code". Little Finger gave him an out, Renly gave him an out. He turned his nose up at both of them. Had he done what either one told him, there would be no civil war, his family would still be together and he would still have his head.
#164
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
It was Robert's Rebellion because Robert had the best claim to the throne after the Targaryens. This wasn't a case of throwing out the royal family in favor of some random usurper; this was throwing out the royal family and giving the throne to the next in line.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
Acting like having honor is a flaw is kind of silly. There would have been civil war if he'd crowned Renly because Stannis wouldn't have stood for it. Remember, he has a women who shoots shadow assassins out of her vagina... you think that wouldn't have happened with Renly on the Iron Throne? Also, now we're supposed to trust Littlefinger? That worked out so well for Ned with the City Guard. Why wouldn't you think Littlefinger would have stabbed him in the back with that as well? He hates Ned for stealing his Catelyn, he's not gonna turn the kingdom over to him.
If Renly had the crown Ned would never have sent Stannis that letter which informed him that he was the rightful king. Stannis would have no reason to rebel because he wouldn't know anything. For all anyone knows Robert could have ceded the crown to Renly on his deathbed. It was no secret that Robert favored Renly. He gave Renly the family lands and castle when by right those should have gone to Stannis.
If Ned had followed Littlefinger's plan, again he would never have sent Stannis that letter informing him that he was the rightful heir. As for Littlefinger, he doesn't stab people in the back just for shits and giggles. He knew Ned was a sinking ship and hopped onto a bigger boat, the same way Renly knew and abandoned him as well. Littlefinger's plan didnt really require Ned to "trust" Littlefinger to do anything, it just would have kept the status quo.
Ned didn't steal Cat from Littlefinger. She was betrothed to Ned's older brother Brandon. Littlefinger challenged Brandon to a duel and got his ass kicked. Cat pleaded with Brandon to spare Littlefinger's life which he did. After Brandon was killed she was Betrothed to Ned. Cat only ever saw Littlefinger as a brother nothing more.
Last edited by Thrush; 05-09-12 at 07:46 AM.
#171
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
If Renly had the crown Ned would never have sent Stannis that letter which informed him that he was the rightful king. Stannis would have no reason to rebel because he wouldn't know anything. For all anyone knows Robert could have ceded the crown to Renly on his deathbed.
If Ned had followed Littlefinger's plan, again he would never have sent Stannis that letter informing him that he was the rightful heir. As for Littlefinger, he doesn't stab people in the back just for shits and giggles. He knew Ned was a sinking ship and hopped onto a bigger boat, the same way Renly knew and abandoned him as well. Littlefinger's plan didnt really require Ned to "trust" Littlefinger to do anything, it just would have kept the status quo.
Ned didn't steal Cat from Littlefinger. She was betrothed to Ned's older brother Brandon. Littlefinger challenged Brandon to a duel and got his ass kicked. Cat pleaded with Brandon to spare Littlefinger's life which he did. After Brandon was killed she was Betrothed to Ned. Cat only ever saw Littlefinger as a brother nothing more.
Ned didn't steal Cat from Littlefinger. She was betrothed to Ned's older brother Brandon. Littlefinger challenged Brandon to a duel and got his ass kicked. Cat pleaded with Brandon to spare Littlefinger's life which he did. After Brandon was killed she was Betrothed to Ned. Cat only ever saw Littlefinger as a brother nothing more.
The realm was in trouble before Ned ever stepped foot in Kings Landing because there were larger forces at work. All he did was hasten the fall.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
#173
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
I though Jon Arryn, not Ned, told Stannis about the royal children not being Robert's biological kids, which is a reason why Stannis, who was a member of the small council, was missing from King's Landing after Jon Arryn's death. (Or is that just from the books and not the series?)
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12
I though Jon Arryn, not Ned, told Stannis about the royal children not being Robert's biological kids, which is a reason why Stannis, who was a member of the small council, was missing from King's Landing after Jon Arryn's death. (Or is that just from the books and not the series?)
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Re: Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12