The Babylon 5 Season THREE Discussion Thread
#226
I just read this entire thread today, but I watched all of season 3 within 3 days of its release. I really love this show. There are so many quotable lines especially from Delenn. My only problem now is waiting for season 4 to come out. I guess that's my punishment for not spacing out the episodes, but I just can't stop myself when I get started.
Spoiler:
#227
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Not necessarily a filler episode but certainly didn't contribute a ton to the overall arch. I like Marcus as a character and I think he and Franklin are hilarious together as we'll see again next season.
#228
DVD Talk Legend
Today's Episode: Messages from Earth
And now things are starting to pick up.........
As the Senate continues to investigate President Clark, an archaeologist brings news of a development back home that forces Sheridan to act against the Earth government. The Nightwatch tightens its grip on the civilian population.
Sheridan's unwillingness to fire on the Agamemnon may be a sign of trouble to come; he's not ready to think of Earth's military as an enemy. How long that loyalty will last is unclear, but at some point, if conditions on Earth continue to escalate and Sheridan continues to act covertly against the government, he'll be forced to choose between firing on his own people and death or capture.
The White Star is a Minbari vessel, yet Sheridan believed the Agamemnon would be able to track it. (See "Points of Departure.") Perhaps that was simply because the White Star was in Jupiter's atmosphere; it was thus unable to outrun the Agamemnon, and could be tracked via atmospheric disturbances.
The White Star is a formidable vessel, in any case; it has as much firepower as several Narn heavy cruisers, judging by its attack on the Shadow vessel (see "The Long, Twilight Struggle,") although this Shadow ship might have been smaller than those faced by the Narn. The Agamemnon was able to damage the White Star, but only after it had been grazed by a Shadow weapon and subjected to atmospheric conditions far outside its safety limits.
The White Star is a Minbari vessel, yet Sheridan believed the Agamemnon would be able to track it. (See "Points of Departure.") Perhaps that was simply because the White Star was in Jupiter's atmosphere; it was thus unable to outrun the Agamemnon, and could be tracked via atmospheric disturbances.
The White Star is a formidable vessel, in any case; it has as much firepower as several Narn heavy cruisers, judging by its attack on the Shadow vessel (see "The Long, Twilight Struggle,") although this Shadow ship might have been smaller than those faced by the Narn. The Agamemnon was able to damage the White Star, but only after it had been grazed by a Shadow weapon and subjected to atmospheric conditions far outside its safety limits.
#229
DVD Talk Legend
Today's Episode: Point of No Return
As the Earth Alliance plunges toward civil war, internal strife threatens to shatter the command structure of B5. Zack's loyalties are put to the test when the Nightwatch is ordered to take over station security. Londo receives another glimpse of his destiny.
One of Londo's two squandered chances was undoubtedly his action in "The Coming of Shadows," which sparked the Narn-Centauri War. The other is less clear. Perhaps it was his initial meeting with Morden, or the attack on the outpost in "Chrysalis." It may also have been his decision to ask the Shadows to defend Gorash 7 ("The Long, Twilight Struggle,") without which the Centauri wouldn't have been able to crush the Narn as thoroughly as they did.
"The eye that does not see" might refer to the Eye, the symbol of Centauri nobility that marked the start of Londo's association with Morden ("Signs and Portents.") It may also refer to G'Kar's eye, which appears to be injured or missing in Londo's dream ("The Coming of Shadows.")
The one who is already dead might be Morden, who's officially dead according to Earth Alliance records ("In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum") or perhaps G'Kar, whose old life is certainly gone. It's also possible that it refers to the memory of someone who is to die; Londo may be presented with an opportunity to discredit someone who would otherwise serve as a martyr. Along similar lines, it may refer to the wishes of someone already dead; for instance, destroying the chance for peace that Emperor Turhan sought before his death, something that would have been the Emperor's legacy.
Another possibility is a connection to the transfer of Minbari souls to humans; the owner of a particular previously-deceased Minbari soul (perhaps Sinclair) may prove troublesome to Londo in the future.
"The eye that does not see" might refer to the Eye, the symbol of Centauri nobility that marked the start of Londo's association with Morden ("Signs and Portents.") It may also refer to G'Kar's eye, which appears to be injured or missing in Londo's dream ("The Coming of Shadows.")
The one who is already dead might be Morden, who's officially dead according to Earth Alliance records ("In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum") or perhaps G'Kar, whose old life is certainly gone. It's also possible that it refers to the memory of someone who is to die; Londo may be presented with an opportunity to discredit someone who would otherwise serve as a martyr. Along similar lines, it may refer to the wishes of someone already dead; for instance, destroying the chance for peace that Emperor Turhan sought before his death, something that would have been the Emperor's legacy.
Another possibility is a connection to the transfer of Minbari souls to humans; the owner of a particular previously-deceased Minbari soul (perhaps Sinclair) may prove troublesome to Londo in the future.
#231
Senior Member
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 884
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sitting on a question about Severed Dreams, so I've been pretty quiet.
Really liked this episode. I'm a sucker for semi-cryptic prophecies, and trying to figure out this one is pretty fun. The Emperor portion does make me curious--Why would either Vir or Londo go first? If Londo were to refuse the position of Emperor, and pass it on to Vir, he would know he couldn't die until after Vir.
Really liked this episode. I'm a sucker for semi-cryptic prophecies, and trying to figure out this one is pretty fun. The Emperor portion does make me curious--Why would either Vir or Londo go first? If Londo were to refuse the position of Emperor, and pass it on to Vir, he would know he couldn't die until after Vir.
#232
Enormous Genitals
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 38,814
Received 897 Likes
on
472 Posts
From: a small cottage on a cul de sac in the lower pits of hell.
Majel Barret was good in this ep. I never know how to feel about Londo - there are times when I feel complete sympathy/empathy for him, and others where I am amazed at how shortsighted, stupid and mean he is. His character has been expertly written and acted.
#235
DVD Talk Legend
Today's Episode: Severed Dreams
Now we should have plenty to discuss.
When President Clark tries to seize control of Babylon 5 by force, Sheridan is faced with the prospect of severing the station's ties with Earth. Delenn receives disturbing news from a Ranger.
Sheridan said he wanted to keep Draal a secret, and thus didn't ask for help defending the station. But anyone with two eyes now knows he has some interesting non-human technology at his disposal; he used the Great Machine to broadcast his holographic image all over the station. While Earth has free-floating holography (such as the Knights' image of Sinclair at the beginning of "And the Sky Full of Stars") it's a far cry from what Sheridan did.
Sheridan's secession from the Earth Alliance plays directly into Clark's hands in some respects. Clark can use the secession, and the Minbari involvement, to paint a picture of an alien-supported military coup against an elected civilian government, further proof of the need for martial law, the Nightwatch, and other draconian measures. No doubt he'll be able to make that version of the story believable to a large number of people back home, thus solidifying his power base.
The Shadows are apparently perfectly willing to double-cross the Centauri, at least in words. By offering to protect the League worlds from Centauri aggression, when the Centauri are using the Shadows to act out that aggression, they've effectively taken control of both sides of any potential Centauri border conflicts. What they'll do with that control, and why they want it, remains to be seen.
Sheridan's secession from the Earth Alliance plays directly into Clark's hands in some respects. Clark can use the secession, and the Minbari involvement, to paint a picture of an alien-supported military coup against an elected civilian government, further proof of the need for martial law, the Nightwatch, and other draconian measures. No doubt he'll be able to make that version of the story believable to a large number of people back home, thus solidifying his power base.
The Shadows are apparently perfectly willing to double-cross the Centauri, at least in words. By offering to protect the League worlds from Centauri aggression, when the Centauri are using the Shadows to act out that aggression, they've effectively taken control of both sides of any potential Centauri border conflicts. What they'll do with that control, and why they want it, remains to be seen.
#236
Enormous Genitals
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 38,814
Received 897 Likes
on
472 Posts
From: a small cottage on a cul de sac in the lower pits of hell.
Delenn kicks ass in this episode! That line at the end when she swoops in to save the day is one that literally made me jump out of my chair and yell "HELL YEAH!!!!!"
I guess the lines are drawn.
I guess the lines are drawn.
#237
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Sorry I haven't posted in a couple days. My computer has been besieged by the fu**ing blaster worm so I've been otherwise occupied. Looks like my computer got fixed just in the nick of time for Severed Dreams.
How much do I LOVE this episode. Delenn coming in and putting her foot down is just awesome. The question of how far a person will go to protect what they believe in is an interesting one. Sheridan saw everything going to hell in a handbasket and decided to act.
I do have questions about Londo's reading from Point of No Return but I'm going to wait awhile to type my thoughts about that one - don't want to spoil things but I am interested in people's opinions.
How much do I LOVE this episode. Delenn coming in and putting her foot down is just awesome. The question of how far a person will go to protect what they believe in is an interesting one. Sheridan saw everything going to hell in a handbasket and decided to act.
I do have questions about Londo's reading from Point of No Return but I'm going to wait awhile to type my thoughts about that one - don't want to spoil things but I am interested in people's opinions.
Last edited by lisadoris; 08-29-03 at 03:37 PM.
#238
Senior Member
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 884
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have a question about this episode--I can't tell if this is a legitimate observation, or me just reading too much into the way things were shot. It's based on a JMS comment about the episode; I'm spoiler-ing it out because the comment may or may not give away something about later episodes:
Spoiler:
#239
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by Jlbkwrm
I have a question about this episode
I have a question about this episode
heh-heh-heh
kinda fun to use that on someone besides Bando
#240
DVD Talk Legend
Today's Episode: Ceremonies of Light and Dark
The Nightwatch orders its members on Babylon 5 to target Delenn in an attempt to undermine Minbari actions during the recent crisis. Londo presents Refa with an ultimatum.
Londo is playing a dangerous game with Refa; Refa will no doubt not take kindly to having his life threatened, and may retaliate against Londo either overtly or behind the scenes. Refa seems to have much of the royal court in his pocket while Londo's influence has waned since he broke off his association with Morden. Londo may find that he's bitten off more than he can chew.
However, the extent of the risk he's taking is a good indication that his realization of the dark nature of his former pact with Morden is complete; after this it will be very hard to turn back. It's interesting to note, though, that his basic goal hasn't changed, only his methods; note that he tries to dissuade Refa by talking about how dangerous the current Centauri policies are to their people. Londo is still first and foremost a patriot, not unlike G'Kar (at least until Kosh's revelation in "Dust to Dust.")
Londo and Sinclair have something in common; Londo's poisoning of Refa bears a passing resemblance to Sinclair planting a transmitter in G'Kar's intestinal tract. Or rather, claiming to -- which raises the question, did Londo really poison Refa, or just say so? Like Sinclair, Londo might figure that the poison that doesn't exist can't be flushed out by doctors.
The Army of Light is now dressed in black uniforms. Whether that's an intentional contrast on Delenn's part, or simply her fashion sense, only time will tell.
However, the extent of the risk he's taking is a good indication that his realization of the dark nature of his former pact with Morden is complete; after this it will be very hard to turn back. It's interesting to note, though, that his basic goal hasn't changed, only his methods; note that he tries to dissuade Refa by talking about how dangerous the current Centauri policies are to their people. Londo is still first and foremost a patriot, not unlike G'Kar (at least until Kosh's revelation in "Dust to Dust.")
Londo and Sinclair have something in common; Londo's poisoning of Refa bears a passing resemblance to Sinclair planting a transmitter in G'Kar's intestinal tract. Or rather, claiming to -- which raises the question, did Londo really poison Refa, or just say so? Like Sinclair, Londo might figure that the poison that doesn't exist can't be flushed out by doctors.
The Army of Light is now dressed in black uniforms. Whether that's an intentional contrast on Delenn's part, or simply her fashion sense, only time will tell.
#241
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Oh good ole Londo, up to his tricks again. Sometimes I wonder if Londo poisoned Refa because he knew a continued alliance with Morden would be bad for his people or simply because he didn't want Refa to use Morden to gain power (like he did).
#243
DVD Talk Legend
Today's Episode: Sic Transit Vir
Londo introduces Vir to a surprising new acquaintance. A heavy influx of Narns to the station raises suspicions.
If Ivanova and Allen could follow the paper trail to discover that Vir apparently sent thousands of Narn to their deaths, others might be able to as well. Vir may find himself a target if any Narn who aren't in on his secret manage to access the records in question. Certainly Lyndisty is still in danger; lots of other Narn would undoubtedly like to get their hands on someone with her history.
There may also be a parallel between Londo's insect hunt and the typical Centauri attitude toward the Narn, who they regard as little more than bugs on two feet. If that parallel is intentional, Londo's line about the insects "evolving before my eyes" might have some relation to the Narns' changing position in the universe -- with G'Kar's help (and some prodding from Kosh) they're becoming something quite different than they were mere months earlier.
Evidence of the pressures of independence are starting to appear: B5's officers now drink an unidentified liquid instead of morning coffee and the ambassador of a major race -- albeit an ally of the government the station opposes -- can't get a maintenance crew to his quarters. The loss of Earth funding and support is likely to grow worse over time.
There may also be a parallel between Londo's insect hunt and the typical Centauri attitude toward the Narn, who they regard as little more than bugs on two feet. If that parallel is intentional, Londo's line about the insects "evolving before my eyes" might have some relation to the Narns' changing position in the universe -- with G'Kar's help (and some prodding from Kosh) they're becoming something quite different than they were mere months earlier.
Evidence of the pressures of independence are starting to appear: B5's officers now drink an unidentified liquid instead of morning coffee and the ambassador of a major race -- albeit an ally of the government the station opposes -- can't get a maintenance crew to his quarters. The loss of Earth funding and support is likely to grow worse over time.
#244
DVD Talk Limited Edition
OK, this is a point of confusion for me... was the Narn really after Vir or his lady-friend? I know the assumption was that Vir's activities put the blood oath in motion but after what's her name's speech about cleansing their entire village and the fact that the 2nd Narn went after her, maybe Vir wasn't the real target?
This has always bothered me.
This has always bothered me.
#246
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by xVladx
Haven't seen the ep in a while, but I think the idea was that the Narn was always after Lindisty.
Haven't seen the ep in a while, but I think the idea was that the Narn was always after Lindisty.
#247
Enormous Genitals
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 38,814
Received 897 Likes
on
472 Posts
From: a small cottage on a cul de sac in the lower pits of hell.
Yeah, but anyone who traces the records can find out that Vir was responsible for transferring thousands of Narn who are now officially dead. It's possible they were after Vir too.
#248
I assumed the other Narns would know they weren't really dead.
#250
Senior Member
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 884
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I tend to think the Narn was always after Lyndisty, mostly because I don't know how the average Narn would find out Vir, living on Minbari, was behind all the transfers of Narns from the homeworld. Even with access to the Centauri database, wouldn't they just assume Abrahamo Lincolni was issuing the death orders? I thought Ivanova only realized it was Vir because the name 'Abrahamo Lincolni' was obviously based on the Earth historical figure, and Vir had an interest in Earth history.
Last edited by Jlbkwrm; 09-03-03 at 02:13 AM.



