sabre

Someone, anyone, please stake Spike.
This show lost me when spike and buffy got involved. Poor Andrew he killed one person under the influence of the firstand he is considered evil, willow ripped the skin off someone but she is okay, but spike he can munch on people right and left, almost rape buffy but he is still a great guy and we need him.
It makes no sense. Buffy is al of sudden the mission matters, whole concept of the show has been her friends give her strength and have kept her alive unlike most other slayers. I am so glad this show is going off the air. I am a long time buffy fan but the last couple of seasons have been terrible with a few exceptions. Poor xander his character has become nothing more than stupid comic relief. buffy is becoming truly detestable, both the character and the show. But i am look forward to faith returning, i can only hope she stakes spike. It has never made sense why buffy did not stake spike.

rennervision

For some reason, my Replay TV decided I would much rather watch a rerun of Friends on NBC rather than the first new episode of Buffy for the past few weeks. So now that I've come to terms with this and am ready to get on with my life, can anyone be so kind as to elaborate what exactly happened between Buffy and Giles last night?

costanza187

I just have a question...I'll go ahead and put spoiler tags on it, although I doubt that is really necessary, but

Chew

Considering there's only a small handful of episodes left in the whole series, I'd say the former in your question is a pretty good bet.

Patman

Okay, Giles-Buffy (major spoilers on the episode plot points):

Patman

BTW, this episode was sort of patch-worked together with the revelations of the psychology of Spike/William, and how his relationship with his mother impacted his worldview, with Buffy having to grow up faster in a leadership role that she was put into by circumstances, but now has to step up and actually BE the leader, given Giles' duplicity with Robin.

Spike is now having to live with consequences now that he's been imbued with a soul. There's some form of an internal compass that now gives him pause for his actions, and makes him accountable for his actions from the time he has now been rid of the influence of the First, and his past. I'd treat this development as a new start for Spike, not necessarily his redemption, either.

rennervision

Thanks Patman. Man, I wish I saw this one. Why couldn't I have missed the one that was Andrew's home movies instead? Why? Why?!?

OK - I feel better now.

writteninstars

A few thoughts:

Several people have analyzed this episode and found it lacking. Bah. They certainly have a right to have not enjoyed it, but I am on the total opposite end of that spectrum. I loved it! For one thing, Spike came into his own again last night. See: fight w/ Wood. That is a beautiful thing to behold. Also, there is Buffy's staunch defense of Spike throughout the entire episode. She never doubts him. Not even once. Makes my poor heart go all pitter-patter.

Giles. I never doubted his capacity to distrust Spike, but I *never* thought he would hurt Buffy like that again. Not after his betrayal in "Helpless". I do not one little bit blame her for being angry with him, but I do hope they resolve it before the very end. I would hate for one or both of them to die with that chasm between them. (That is not a spoiler. I have no knowledge of any deaths. I just know Buffy and Joss).

I loved Xander patting Spike on the back after he chains him up. (Hmm. That sounds slashy, but you know what I mean.) It was something one would do to a friend, not a sworn enemy. I don't know what it is about these two in particular, but I've always wanted them to be friends. I don't know why I would think they'd be able to get to that point, but it's a desire of mine and last night's pat was a tiny morsel for my hope chest.

I disagree with Spike in that just because Nikki had a sacred duty to protect the world, it didn't mean she didn't love her son. She did place him second, that's true, but she also loved him. And now I'm envisioning a vastly pregnant Nikki battling vamps. That's kind of funny.

The only time I have *ever* *ever* liked Dru was last night..."You want to bring your mum with us?" Loved it.

And finally, at long last, my favorite part: "I know slayers". And how!

~wis

retihsuhnt

"Not enough Xander or Jonathan in this one so it was mediocre for me - and the Buffy 'attitude' is kinda off. "

I must have missed something because Jonathan died a while ago, Im just guessing that he/she meant Andrew.

Chad

That really ticks me off, as he is an essential part of the show...seems like he gets less and less respect each season. I'd be all for a spinoff with Xander as the lead character.

I read over at AICN it was rumored that Giles was originally supposed to disclose to Buffy his role in Ben’s death from season 5. Just doesn't make much sense to reveal that in the final few episodes, would probably put an even greater strain on their relationship.

BTW, only 5 more episodes left until the series finale! That's hard to comprehend.

Dr. DVD

In a way, this episode focused on two guys whose lives were greatly impacted by their mothers. Both of them relied heavily upon their matriarchs for support and both suffered in life because of their desire to have an ideal relationship with them.

What I found most interesting: Spike sired his mom after he was turned himself, but yet he still had the desire to keep her in his life. Once his "mom" turned on him, he truly began to express remorse and have his feelings hurt. My question: if vampires are devoid of souls, how are they able to feel genuine remorse and pain? This case seems unique with Spike.

WiccanPagan

i'd like to thank people for all the soiler tags in the thread. best usage i have seen so far. couldn't resist not highlighting them all, but hey it was my fault. glad to see thatjust a thought. last night's episode was dull. don't need to see wood or spike that much. they strayed away from all my favorite characters (at current, willow, andrew, xander, and anya), and left us with innane dribble. here's to hoping that the series ends much better than this episode

Tanaraq

Did anybody else think William's mention of Dr. Gull was a reference of some kind to Alan Moore's From Hell where a Dr. Gull was Jack the Ripper. I doubt they were implying it was the same Dr. Gull but I thought it was a neat tip of the hat to fans of the graphic novel.

CaptainMarvel

I thought the exact same thing. I'm pretty sure it was deliberate. Gull just doesn't seem that common a name.

clemente

soiler tags....hehehehe.

If someone didn't use them some people would soil there pants in anger.

Draven

Gotta point out that since Angel was let off the hook for all the stuff he did as Angelus (like killing Ms. Calender) then Spike shouldn't be held accountable for anything he did before he got his soul.

I liked this episode, but once again, it was too little, too late. They needed to get this stuff moving earlier in the season.

Jlbkwrm

Angel feels guilt over his past murders. Spike doesn't. That's a world of difference to me. Angel is actively seeking redemption. Spike wants it on a silver platter, and the soul is his excuse. He doesn't even claim to be a different person, now. Just that he doesn't do it anymore, on account of the soul, so all should be forgiven. Angel never would have told Wood, "I killed a lot of people's mothers."

Plus, he's shown no guilt for the murders this season when he had a soul--Yeah, the First was controlling him, but upon finding that out, he did nothing to assure the safety of the rest of the world. He just ran around the town (and Buffy let him, which was horrible of her), just a couple of bars of music away from killing a bunch of people.

WiccanPagan

ah, yes let's pick on the typo-person day. i always love this day. it's oh so enjoyable. SOIL YOU!!!

Draven

Actually, he has said similar things on "Angel" before. Especially when pushed into a fight.

I hate Spike with the heat of a 1000 suns, but his actions fit with his personality.

I am just saying that the rape should be a non-issue, since soul=good for Buffyverse vampires. I dont' remember Angel apologizing to Giles for killing Jenny or torturing him for that matter. He said something like "that wasn't me" I believe.

Not that different. And Spike IS fighting the good fight, so in his own petulant, childish way he is helping to atone for what he did.

Jlbkwrm

I'm not saying he wouldn't say those things at all, just that he never would have said them to Wood. That situation is one in which saying "I killed a lot of people's mothers." is extremely cruel. Closest comparison I can come up with is when Angel meets up with Holtz for the first time. His response isn't "Yeah, I killed your family. I killed a lot of people's families." His response is, "There's no justice for the things I did to you."

Angel displays regret over killing, Spike does not.

Totally with you on the hate, now. The personality is part of my problem. He's acting too much like no-soul Spike for the "Souled now!" argument to work with me.

The only clear Giles and Angel memory I have from season three is from Amends. In it, he asks Giles for help, while admitting he has no right to do so. No outright apology, but definitely feeling the guilt. He might have used that argument at another time, but he didn't brush his actions as Angelus off as nothing (Going so far as to say he deserved to suffer in a hell dimension for eternity for what he's done.)

zero

Another great episode, the last minutes had me on the edge of my seat. Cant wait to see what happens next.

Original Desmond

I loved seeing Spike beat on Principal Wood ! and i was marking out when Buffy said that if he tried anything again, Spike would kill him and Buffy would let him !

great way overall to end the spike/wood feud

like the tension between Buffy and Giles, should prove interesting

Andrew answering the phone from Fred was cool, glad they aired this ep after the willow appearing on angel ep

wendersfan

But Angel was given back his soul without asking, whereas Spike actually went through a lot to get his back, knowing what it would mean. You don't think that counts for something? Because Spike doesn't feel guilt doesn't mean he doesn't realize he commited evil, it just means he realizes he was a different "person" then, and can look past what he did.

To me, the fact Spike consciously tried to make himself "worthy" counts a lot more than Angel being given back his soul against his will.

tasha99

On the last Angel,


tasha

Josh-da-man

Just because someone has a soul doesn't mean they're not capable of evil.

There's really nothing stopping Angel from being Angelus except his conscience. The soul doesn't prevent him from killing - HE does.

I think Spike is still dangerous. He's a romantic; he idealizes things like people and relationships. God forbid he should be disappointed in something. He's also not bound by the laws of men.

I sort of have to wonder what his reaction will be when shows up in the future.

The last time they were together,