Well, wasn't the First able to touch Spike when it was in the form of Drusilla?

Interesting that without a new Buffy thread the Angel thread gets more readings and posts.

The problem is that Lilah wasn't trying to convince Wesley to do anything bad. She was just letting him work out his problems. I don't think the first is that kind.

I think it was the First, setting the hooks into Wesley. In the same way that, when it first appeared to Willow (as Cassie? is that her name?) it was to bring a loving message from Tara on the other side. In the same way that, when it first appeared to Angel in Amends, it seemed to be attempting to soothe his guilt over his actions as Angelus.

Face it; it wouldn't do the First any good to appear initially as a demonic force, demanding actions. First it sets the hook, wins your confidence, makes you dependant, then turns evil.

Much like a number of girlfriends I've had, actually.

And as far as the non-corporeal thing goes, how do we know that to be a fact? We're only going on the say-so of the First, and of its minions and people it has held in thrall...

I think it was clearly not the First. It was Wesley working his way through a death he thought he could have prevented. I think in a lot of ways it set up his determination to dealing with Faith.

And the fact that several people have passed their hands through the First, and that it was in a position to kill Buffy and many others if it could have.

Why else would it need the Bringers?

The first is definately non-corporeal, I don't think that can be disputed. As for Lilah, I think that could go either way, she will either appear again as the First or she won't. I personally didn't even consider her being the First when I first watched it, I felt it was all just in Wesley's mind.

it may not be The first but did anyone see that knife in the Sacramento Prison??
I think there is a link between the twho shows.

Lilah definitely wasn't the First. It was merely Wesley's conscience--his guilt for "letting" Lilah die. I thought it was a suitably tense character-building scene for Wes.

I don't think there was any doubt that the weapon the other inmate tried to kill Faith with was a bringer knife.

Easily the best ep. of the season, if not one of them.

Yowza!
Thank you Cranky - can you get more picks of Steph?

Steph is old news. Keep the Faith!

Wow, you'd think the girl could afford to buy a new dress when she rips one.

Well, since I may the old man here (at 31), I guess that's why I'm so into her - Eliza's too young.

In memoriam of Lila, here's an interview excerpt with Romanov from about a year ago:

Stephanie: They say that there's a fine line between love and hate. I have played Lila from the beginning as having a crush on Angel. Maybe it's because it's the one thing that she can't have. I don't know if anyone ever notices when I'm in a scene with Angel, her lipstick is a little bit redder with a little bit more gloss on. I like the idea of a mystery. So you can't tell if their relationship is more adversarial. I try to make it interesting because people enjoy watching her. I never anticipated that it would go on as long as it has. I made some choices in the beginning to make it more intriguing to make her stay around. I don't know how long she's around for. I don't know what their plans are. What they told me is that she is the voice of Wolfram And Hart and that she's going to be around. They (producers) have some good ideas for her. Which is exciting. I think that there are a lot of areas that they can show that they haven't yet. I see her as kind of a film noir kind of character, a femme fetale. The first season, they did her hair more 1940's. Almost like not knowing what kind of time period she may be from. They haven't done any of her background, so for an actor it allows you to create more mystery. You're not playing a real lawyer in a real circumstance. It's a made up world where there are no rules. I think it would be fun to play with that a bit more.

Brian_92gsr wrote: The first is definately non-corporeal, I don't think that can be disputed.

Well, don't be so sure...

Back to the possible non-corporeal nature of the First -
I'm not arguing, necessarily, that it is corporeal, only that we may have been misled. Yes, we've seen people walk through, and pass things through the First, but that only demonstrates that it CAN be non-corporeal, not that it can't be corporeal. The only evidence we have of it being solely non-corporeal is its own say-so.

Hold on, though...

We have actually seen the First in physical form.

I'm amazed, especially with the availability of Season Three of Buffy on dvd, at how little attention Amends has received. This is the Christmas episode from S3, in which the First appears to attempt to win Angel over to evil, to have him kill Buffy. Several times in this episode, the First, appearing as Jenny Calendar, physically touches Angel, mussing his hair, trying to comfort him (in conversations strikingly similar to the Wesley conversation in this week's Angel, actually). The First actually claims credit ('we', interestingly - is the first one of the Powers that Be? That would make some sense...) for bringing Angel back from the hell dimension. Buffy acknowledges this as a possibility, suggesting that if the First brought him back, it's because it needs him, and that means might be able to hurt the First...

I fully acknowledge that Mutant Enemy could be playing fast and loose with the continuity here (and Giles does tell Buffy in this ep that the First can't be fought, that it isn't physical), but Whedon both wrote and directed Amends, so he did have fairly tight control over it.

So, yes, we have heard that the First is non-corporeal. We've seen people walk through it. But we've also seen it touching people... I think the jury is still out.

(And by the way, no, I don't have all of this information floating around in my head - I just rewatched Amends with all of this in mind. For the record, at 15.50 and 20.05 the First touches Angel - pretty hard to do if you're non-corporeal... The harbingers/Bringers, according to what Giles is reading, "can conjure spirit manifestations and set them on people to influence them, haunt them." Perhaps that's why the First needs the Bringers, Draven.)

WillieTheShakes - if it could take physical form, then why even mess around with the bringers? In fact, why not just appear in Buffy's room at night and slit her throat. I think that is the main proof, so many things it could have done itself without anyone knowing that it couldn't.

BTW, I just wateched Amends. I can't believe I didn't rewatch this again earlier in theis current season. In fact this was only the second time I've ever seen this episode, and it deserved a second viewing to pick up on things even without the 7th season.

Even in this episode I didn't see anything that strongly suggested that the First could take corporeal form. I would say everything suggested quite that opposite. The First did touch him at those two times, but nothing was shown actually effected by the touch. And in this current season we've seen the First leaning up against walls and such, showing the First could still interact slightly with the environment. And of course, why have Angel kill Buffy when the First could do it itself?

Brian - I thought of the whole 'suggesting touch without actually touching' thing, but watch the bit at 20.05 or so (just as Angel lies down on the bench) - she's clearly brushing his hair back.

As well, arguing that the first didn't kill Buffy, and therefore isn't corporeal is a bit tenuous. Why mess around with the Bringers? Heck, even God has Cardinals, right? Seriously, though, the First has clearly held back from killing Buffy, either directly or indirectly. It held Spike back from killing her (saying 'Not yet'), the ubervamp didn't kill her when she was crushed in the warehouse, etc. I'm guessing, but I think the Slayer is endgame; the plan seems to be to get rid of the Potentials, as well as Faith, and have the line die with Buffy (and should we be talking about how the lineage actually runs at this point? Another potential misdirection?)

And as far as why have Angel kill Buffy in S3? I'm not sure of the motivation, but perhaps the prophecies (about the Slayer and the vampire with a soul staving off the Apocalypse) have something to do with it. Maybe the First has a sense of the cruelly appropriate?

I'm about to digress...
So what is the First Evil? Yeah, I know, Evil sort of incarnate. "Beyond sin. Beyond death."

I think, in a way, though, that the First Evil is the manifestation of betrayal. All evil, in a way, stems from betrayal. In the Judeo-Christian sense, Cain slew Abel, but it was the betrayal of Abel that underlies that murder. In the garden, Adam & Eve betray God and eat of the fruit...

In the basement, Andrew betrayed Jonathan to open the seal. Yes, there was blood, but I think it was blood of betrayal that was the key. I think that's why his tears closed it; tears of true contrition from the traitorous murderer... Maybe.

Edit: Whoops, wrong thread. But there's no Buffy thread around now, so I'll just leave it.

I'm surprised no one has pointed out something that I've noticed, unless I missed it.

The theme of season seven. Think about it.

- Spike got his soul.
- Anya became human.
- The potentials have no special powers.
- Willow, having to avoid magic and just be an ordinary mortal.
- Buffy declining the demon power because it would make her less human.
- Andrew closed the seal with his tears.

This could be extended back to the end of season six by how Xander saves the world from Willow.

I imagine the season will end with the First being defeated not through some vortex or spell, but through love or humanity or something.

BTDT

Could not agree more Patman.
I sure hope they do not try to pull that off two seasons in a row.
I'm tired of the love saves all bit. I miss the Bazooka every now and then.

I skimmed the posts, so I might have missed it if someone said this, but didn't Angel say "Buffy" right before he had his soul removed?