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Buffy 11/12/02 "Conversations with Dead People"

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Buffy 11/12/02 "Conversations with Dead People"

Old 11-13-02, 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by iawiaw
Isn't it always the case that the big bad is almost invincible and omnipotent ....
Hence the name "big bad"
Old 11-13-02, 02:52 PM
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I think Joss is saying that evil is inherently more powerful than good. That's why Buffy has survived this long, because of the scoobies.
Old 11-13-02, 03:01 PM
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Evil is always more powerful. Good has to combat not only the forces of Evil, but also the temptation to take the easy road and become Evil.
Old 11-13-02, 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by Wizdar
Evil is always more powerful. Good has to combat not only the forces of Evil, but also the temptation to take the easy road and become Evil.
Yep. If Evil was easy to beat by the forces of Good, there wouldn't be much room for dramatics, suspense and the like.
Old 11-13-02, 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by bedhead_75
I think Joss is saying that evil is inherently more powerful than good. That's why Buffy has survived this long, because of the scoobies.
I don't think that's the particular meaning from Whedon. Certainly there is more in the way of evil coming at them from all directions and in many formats. Other than that it is a huge balance - hence Cassie's 'balance' speech. But it's no secret that Buffy with her friends is what made her last this long. Giles said long ago this was the case and something that made the situation unique. Even Spike for that matter in School Hard.

A Slayer with family and friends. That sure as hell wasn't in the brochure.
on another note:
Spoiler:
Assuming the manipulation theory is true, I hope we get a decent explanation as to how halluci-Buffy is able to convince Spike to kill people. He may be somewhat unstable and led by his emotions, but he's smart, and he understood killing humans = wrong even before he got his soul back. I'm worried what they are doing with the character here.


For as much of the pseudo cryptic messages he's receiving, the only one of the manifests he would want to act upon would be Buffy. He was able to see through the white shirt consoling Buffy vs. the black shirt demanding one, even if he so desperately wanted it to be the white shirt, however. Spike is shrewd and can be manipulative himself - his own Yoko Factor theory Although he has the chip, he could have gone off trying to assist more of the demon world in defeating Buffy and her gang but instead wanted to help. He knows intrinsically, where Buffy stands - no killing of the people! I for one, will not accept any flimsiness for Spike doing this.

Last edited by superstringtheory; 11-13-02 at 03:10 PM.
Old 11-13-02, 03:09 PM
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Originally posted by superstringtheory
...Although he has the chip, he could have gone off trying to assist more of the demon world in defeating Buffy and her gang but instead wanted to help. He knows intrinsically, where Buffy stands - no killing of the people! I for one, will not accept any flimsiness for Spike doing this.
Speaking of the chip... how is it possible he's even allowed to bite people, much les sire them. Is it malfunctioning?
Old 11-13-02, 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by bedhead_75
Speaking of the chip... how is it possible he's even allowed to bite people, much les sire them. Is it malfunctioning?
Yet to be explained but welcoming said theories It's probably short-circuited by now with all the hostile takeovers, lol.
Old 11-13-02, 03:30 PM
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Just finished viewing it. I also believe Tara would have
given a more dramatic effect. They used Joyce with
Dawn. So why not Tara & Willow. Anyways....Moot now.

This episode had the same sort of feel as a B5 episode
a few years back.
When an alien species rented part of the ship for
some ceremony. And many of the crew had dead friends
and foes return. Thats was the first thing I thought of
while watching this ep.
Old 11-13-02, 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by Wizdar
OK, just who the heck was that girl, anyway?
Did anyone else think that looked a lot like the original Buffy from the movie, Kristy Swanson?
Old 11-13-02, 04:16 PM
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Thought it was pretty good, moving forward with the big bad (perhaps the final one) in a good way... It would have been much better with Amber, far more emotional, far easier to potentially seduce Willow, and far, far creepier when the big bad revealed itself in her guise... Spike aint Spike, and since everything was about manipulation, it's clear the big bad wants Buffy to get rid of Spike for some reason, perhaps to distract her or something?... Could have done without Dawns annoying scream and the wanton, irrational destruction of expensive electronics, but it was a creepy segment...
Spoiler:
Nice to see the annoying Nerds now minus two, but disheartening that they can be dead and still re-appear. I hate them and their tired geek jokes
...

One question remains. The writers left a big loophole in that they had a strange night, right? Dawn will obviously have to discuss it with Buffy, what with the house being a wreck and such. Well, since Willow saw through the facade of her evening and will mention it to Buffy, then Buffy and Dawn should be able to figure out their nights were similarly a bunch of lies. Thats one of those logic loopholes Im sure the writers will have to sidestep.
Old 11-13-02, 04:39 PM
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Now, is there somewhere written that bad is ALWAYS more powerful than good? If so, why hasn't bad taken over everything by now? And why is there always ONE big bad? Where's the ONE big good? Seems to me bad is always an actual being or force, and good is usually just a state of mind, a thought or some universal moral code. The two never really equate. You have one big bad who can cause all kinds of physical chaos but no one big good to duke it out with. Always demons/monsters versus human. Where are the "gods and angels"? Guess that's how writers put "suspense" and creat "dramatic effects". 8-)

Human always has to rely on sacred objects/spells etc. Who creat those anyway? The big bad? Now that would be pretty stupid! The big good? If so, just use those to destroy the big bad yourself and be done with it already. And who make those things sacred anyway? Oh yeah, the writers! 8-)

This is not meant to be a deep discussion but just a side thought. 8-)
Old 11-13-02, 04:41 PM
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Oh, and let's not forget the good old "love will conquer/defeat all" cop out solution!
Old 11-13-02, 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by Slumbering Fist
One question remains. The writers left a big loophole in that they had a strange night, right? Dawn will obviously have to discuss it with Buffy, what with the house being a wreck and such. Well, since Willow saw through the facade of her evening and will mention it to Buffy, then Buffy and Dawn should be able to figure out their nights were similarly a bunch of lies. Thats one of those logic loopholes Im sure the writers will have to sidestep.
First, what lie was told to Buffy? According to the vampire, Spike sired him. That could be true. In the episode, we saw Spike killing some other girl... Now yes, we don't know that it was Spike, but I don't really know if the big bad had anything to do with Buffy's encounter what that guy (outside of maybe ensuring that she'd meet him).

Second, imagine this: Buffy, Willow & Dawn are sitting around talking about the events. Willow knows that she saw the big bad, being that the demon pretty much identified itself as such. Dawn, on the other hand, is positive that her mom was really there. I mean, she had to fight whatever other evil force that was in the house to even see her mother. Buffy, hearing the two stories believes Willow. Ergo, siding against Dawn.

To add to this...

Once what "Dawn's mom" said came to pass, the ghost could return again. It would have the advantage of being able to say "See? I told you that would happen", which really puts Dawn under it's control.

Last edited by Chopper; 11-13-02 at 05:53 PM.
Old 11-13-02, 04:46 PM
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If this is the last season for Buffy, but not Angel, then I don't see how the show can end with them vanquishing evil forever. Who would Angel have to contend with on his show?

I wonder if they are setting up for a possible crossover next year with Dawn arriving to start a relationship with Conner?
Old 11-13-02, 04:51 PM
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They are on different networks so I doubt it. Even after the show ends, chances are UPN would still own the intellectual property of the characters from Buffy, or something like that. Just a guess though..
Old 11-13-02, 04:55 PM
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I guess I'm just in disagreement on this one, as I think it could have played even better with Tara. Cassie adds a unique element to it, since she has such interesting mannerisms, but having the same conversation with Tara and ending the way it did would have ripped Willow apart emotionally, even moreso than the distant conversation she had. I think the scene works great, and they did a pretty creative job reworking it (especially the part about Willow's actions preventing her from seeing Tara - good twist), but I think it could have been even better.

das
Old 11-13-02, 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by iawiaw
Now, is there somewhere written that bad is ALWAYS more powerful than good?
Yep. Try here.

Sorry. I couldn't resist.



das, if they done it with Tara, there wouldn't have been much time for the talk thing with all the touchy-feelie that would have to be going on.
Old 11-13-02, 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by das Monkey
I guess I'm just in disagreement on this one, as I think it could have played even better with Tara.
As much as I miss Tara's character, I think using Cassie (whether contractual or otherwise) ultimately worked better dramatically because I feel it took the edge off of Will's initial shock, as well as her gradual acceptance of the whole scenario - that is until the Cassie-thing delivered her big zinger.
Old 11-13-02, 05:11 PM
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Quoth Wizdar <HR SIZE=1>das, if they done it with Tara, there wouldn't have been much time for the talk thing with all the touchy-feelie that would have to be going on. <HR SIZE=1>


That's a bad thing?

das
Old 11-13-02, 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by Dr. DVD
If this is the last season for Buffy, but not Angel, then I don't see how the show can end with them vanquishing evil forever. Who would Angel have to contend with on his show?
I'd think that closing the hellmouth (is that one word or two? upper or lowercase "h"?) would... well... close that location. Wouldn't do a thing to vanquishing evil forever. Unless something was mentioned to state otherwise, which is always possible.

Also, if there is no evil, how can there be good? But that's getting into a really, really non-Buffy discussion.
Old 11-13-02, 06:08 PM
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Guess in that case evil can never triumph since evil and good cannot exist without each other, so the theory goes. Or is it just that good cannot exist without evil?! Hummmm .......

Anyway, back to Spike. If he can't even hit a human without getting a big headache, why the heck would he bit them? Hunger? Or did he enjoy his time at the demon cave just a little toooo much?! 8-D
Old 11-13-02, 11:09 PM
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My problem with the "not Spike" theory (IF we can assume that the plot device of "it" is internally consistant) is that in every other instance of "it" appearing, "it" has appeared to an individual-- not a group, and has used visual tricks and words to try to convince the individual to do "it's" will. If "it" concidered Willow to be a concern (else, why would "it" try to convince her to kill herself) why didn't "it" just freakin' kill her? I contend that it couldn't-- it can only appear in someone's mind for now, and can't do it's own killing.

So I think (until proven wrong) that Spike IS doing the killing.
Old 11-14-02, 12:26 AM
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I wonder how much Spike has told Buffy and the gang about what he knows. He seems to be all on their side, but we never saw him explaining where he got the "from beneath you it devours" from. We also never saw him talking about his conversation with that all-the-big-bads-in-one thing from the season premiere. Of course, it could be that he doesn't remember that, what with the craziness, or that he thinks it was a figment of his madness.

But it definitely feels to me like Spike isn't telling them everything he knows.
Old 11-14-02, 01:19 AM
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Originally posted by 12thmonkey
Anyone know who sang the song (and/or it's name) that bookended the episode?
12th,
It is Angie Hart, the lead singer of Frente (disbanded) and Splendid. They did Charge on the Buffy soundtrack CD that was used in IOHEFY when they played at the Bronze, and they performed at the Bronze again in The Freshman. Don't know what this new one is however as I haven't seen an album out from them in quite sometime.
Old 11-14-02, 01:45 AM
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Originally posted by Dvdsky
I wonder how much Spike has told Buffy and the gang about what he knows. He seems to be all on their side, but we never saw him explaining where he got the "from beneath you it devours" from. We also never saw him talking about his conversation with that all-the-big-bads-in-one thing from the season premiere. Of course, it could be that he doesn't remember that, what with the craziness, or that he thinks it was a figment of his madness.

But it definitely feels to me like Spike isn't telling them everything he knows.
I think Spikes chip isnt working anymore, and that is why he was touching his face after he fed on that woman. But then again maybe that wasnt Spike. This season is getting very interesting.

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