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Buffy 11/12/02 "Conversations with Dead People"

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Buffy 11/12/02 "Conversations with Dead People"

Old 11-13-02, 03:21 AM
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Conversations with evil! I couldn't take anymore after an hour. It just gets to me, all their weaknesses being tortured out of them. Although, Cassie was a great last minute touch. The face & action of complete innocence, but somehow I think her confrontation with Buffy would have been more powerful (Buffy was extremely drawn to her), just not as amusing as with "An intern as a psych major with two years martial arty experience, Holden."

I missed Xan & Anya, I have to say. Anya trying to be seduced would have been quite a challange for the evil one. Praise Willow for gaining insight.

Strange to see Marsters without a duster. It looked almost as out of place as the Hawaiian shirt did.

Now we know Dawn can take action when she really has to. That was great to see. I didn't quite catch the movie she was watching - horror movies by oneself, not a good idea Personally, I think she should dump Kit as a friend.

Well, I know Xander has to be back next week because his entire construction crew is needed to clean up the Summers' household. A lot of good those cell phones are doing for the sisters.

Spoiler:
Jonathan's murder truly depresses me. His sacrifice is such the antithesis of what he wanted to accomplish...too damn bitter. He will always be an honorary member of the gang to me. Andrew and his antics together were of course amusing for a time, especially The Mexican tribute: El Camino. Andrew must die painfully.


I'm conflicted with the Spike look-a-like too. The seed has been planted in Buffy now (damn, can this evil multi task, or what?)that he is siring, he was clearly in a public place for many people to identify him and kills the woman right there on the entry way to her home. I don't believe it was him but that would mean that the evil shifted as a vampire twice in the episode or has many to do its biddings. Then, the main originating bad was stationed with Willow for the evening. If it's a power of only one though completing all of the nights events simultaneously, this is truly scary. Any chance the real Spike and Xander were home watching football together? Maybe their relationship isn't quite at that 'sharing time together' phase, lol.

There is some hinting from its 'balance'speech to Willow WHAT it really is, but I don't know overall if I'm convinced as of yet.

Spoiler:
I just can't seem to get over it...Jonathan stabbed in the gut (THE painful way) while his blood flows through the trenches of the uncovered pentacle. Saddest scene in a long time. Tears me up more than Jenny Calendar or Tara even. There is no one to seek his retribution or know what he stood for. When Andrew dies I will replay that scene over and over. M&$%#@F*&#$%!

Last edited by superstringtheory; 11-13-02 at 03:34 AM.
Old 11-13-02, 03:31 AM
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Wow, I thought this episode was REALLY good. I love when the dialogue was spot on like in this episode. It irked me a little about the whole vamp/shrink way of revealing more about Buffy's inner workings, but I'll accept it since I like what was said. Watching this episode at 3 in the morning was also pretty damn creepy, and I always love when a Buffy episode is scary along with funny. They struck the perfect balance here between humor and suspense.

I really can't wait for next episode.
Old 11-13-02, 05:35 AM
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I enjoyed it quite a bit. When you first see Joyce's corpse on the couch behind Dawn, that was damn creepy. Loved it. Most everything worked well for me in this episode. I really liked the direction, particularly the opening sequence to set the tone that this was going to be a different style of episode.

Since the first season, evil's best shot at defeating the Scoobies has always been divide and conquer, so I'm a bit surprised they didn't do anything with Xander this week, though I can see how trying to pack too much into one episode would ruin the concept.

It really is a shame they couldn't ink a deal with Benson to play Tara for those scenes. I think that could have been very powerful. They did an excellent job filling the role with Cassie, but imagine the gut-wrenching scenes they could have played up had Tara been sitting across that table.

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Old 11-13-02, 06:51 AM
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Originally posted by cooper2000
I dont remember this "first evil" episode from Season 3. Can anyone tell me the title so I can watch it tomorrow?
I think that it was "Amends". If I am not correct, I am sure someone will correct me.
Old 11-13-02, 07:59 AM
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originally posted by das Monkey
It really is a shame they couldn't ink a deal with Benson to play Tara for those scenes.
Agreed. Although it was scary enough when Cassie
Spoiler:
smiled that wicked smile which slowly distorted into some hideous thing.
If that had been Tara that did that, I swear I would have been so frightened I might have lost all bladder control!

By the way, anyone have any thoughts on the appearance of
Spoiler:
Warren
? Was it really him, or just an evil manifestation? If it wasn't him, whatever it was sure did a good job of imitating him when speaking to Andrew. (LOL at the Yoda and Obi-Wan dialouge!)
Old 11-13-02, 08:11 AM
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geez a totally universal thumbs up!

I disagree about it being stronger with Tara instead of Cassie, i thought it worked very well and was more real to have a medium for Tara to talk through.

the Dawn scenes were hell scary ! Must have been nods to at least 5 horror films during those scenes

this season so far is kickin season 6 in the bum !
Old 11-13-02, 09:05 AM
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I agree-- great ep. Here's my take on it:

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned that each of the conversations was essentially a deception. The Big Bad brought back dead people to convince Willow to kill herself; turn Dawn against Buffy; make Andrew kill Jonathan as a human sacrifice; and make Buffy doubt her own abilities and worthiness.

Each was told a lie in order to get them to do the Dark One's will.

Clearly, our gang is considered a major threat by Mr. Evil if he is lavishing them with such attentions.

As for what we saw with Spike, I would not be surprised if we get more info about his activities that night. Is he really biting? Did he really sire the newbie-vamp who talked to Buffy, or was that a lie to turn her against Spike? And was the girl who talked to Spike placed there deliberately to trick him into attacking? Remember, we heard nothing of their conversation. Anything is possible.

And it wasn't a question of them not being able to "get" Amber Benson to play Tara. They didn't want the real Tara. The whole linchpin of Willow's Temptation is she would get to see Tara again. Make her want to see her even more by letting her only sort of "talk" to her through a medium.

Just my thoughts.

I thought some of the images in Dawn's sequence were scary as SsHhIiTt!
Old 11-13-02, 09:29 AM
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I brought up most of those points in my earlier post. Maybe not so eloquently, though. Heh.

The title of the episode gives the intent of the episode away. How each person deals with the temptations that evil dangles in front of them is what defines them. Willow is smart enough to stop doubting her control of her witchcraft (and she knows that she's got the goods on evil), Buffy's still strong (even though she is her toughest critic) and has issues that a slayer, who's lived has long as she has, would develop. Dawn is freaked because she lacks perspective (being young and impressionable), but when the call comes, she'll show her true colors. Andrew is a worm, and does the bidding of evil rather easily.
Old 11-13-02, 09:41 AM
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Originally posted by rennervision
Was it really him, or just an evil manifestation?
I'm going with evil for him and the Buffy Mom.

Coupla things. It must be impossible for Buffy to get homeowner's insurance.

Anybody got any hints on how to get that song Dawn was playing in the kitchen outta my head??

I don’t know what future the series holds, but if this is going to be the last season, it would seem to me that the Hellmouth would need to be done away with once and for all. It all seems to come back to that as the source of evil. Jonathan seemed to think they could destroy it and do a good deed.

I’m thinking of the outrage for no resolution of Farscape. Would Joss tidy things up before pulling the plug?
Old 11-13-02, 09:58 AM
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• Quoth MadameTourvel •<HR SIZE=1>I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned that each of the conversations was essentially a deception.<HR SIZE=1>


I thought that was the whole point of the episode and the subject of multiple posts already.

• Quoth MadameTourvel •<HR SIZE=1>And it wasn't a question of them not being able to "get" Amber Benson to play Tara. They didn't want the real Tara.<HR SIZE=1>


So, why did FOX try to sign Amber Benson for this episode?

das
Old 11-13-02, 10:14 AM
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So, why did FOX try to sign Amber Benson for this episode?
I think to have her come to Willow instead of Cassie.

If anyone is spoiled-->
Spoiler:
I think when Andrew killed Jonathon on top of the seal as a sacrifice, it opened a door and the "Beast" escaped to L.A. (I guess that's where I'd go if I was an all-powerful evil entity
Old 11-13-02, 10:50 AM
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Anyone know who sang the song (and/or it's name) that bookended the episode?
Old 11-13-02, 11:23 AM
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Amber Benson's reps couldn't come to terms with Fox for her re-appearance as Tara (would she really want too much money to reprise her role?), so they used "Cassie" instead, which I thought was a better way anyhow.

Last edited by Patman; 11-13-02 at 11:26 AM.
Old 11-13-02, 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by Patman
Willow is smart enough to stop doubting her control of her witchcraft (and she knows that she's got the goods on evil),
Hmmn... I looked at it a bit differently. I think that if the evil thingy hadn't said that she should kill herself, she would have really been leaning towards not doing magic anymore. Like the demon said, the suicide thing was a bit too much.

Oh - And I really think it worked better without Tara in the episode. I think it would have been more difficult to believe that Willow would see through it if it had actually been Tara. By having someone else play the part, "speaking" for Tara, it makes it easier for Willow to snap out of it & see that it was someone other than who it appeared to be.

Last edited by Chopper; 11-13-02 at 12:43 PM.
Old 11-13-02, 01:38 PM
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I watched the Season three episode last night. It could be the First evil I suppose but what gives everyone the idea it really is?

Also, how do we know that Josh didnt say they couldnt get Amber back as a hoax and she could come back later in the season.
I cant believe she would turn down a chance to come back. She isnt doing anything else is she?

One question though. When Jonathon and Andrew were digging, dont you think there would have been a foundation there instead of just dirt?
Old 11-13-02, 01:42 PM
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Well, what I meant was upon further reflection, Willow should conclude that if some Big Bad wanted her out of the picture by trying to convince her that to find Tara again, she'd have to commit suicide, it would mean that Willow has some major firepower (magic) and that it should strengthen her resolve to focus her control on magic when the time comes now that she's aware someone wants her out of the impending fracas.

Basically, it's a kick in the fanny for Willow to shape up and get her dealio under control.
Old 11-13-02, 01:43 PM
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She is doing some filmwork on smaller budget type films, but I would love to see her back. Still, I didn't really miss her last episode, and thought that Cassie was more than effective.
Old 11-13-02, 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by cooper2000
I cant believe she would turn down a chance to come back. She isnt doing anything else is she?
Actually:
"In 2001, at the age of just 24, Amber directed, wrote, produced and starred in her own movie called 'Chance'. It was presented at the Sundance Film Festival in 2002. "
Old 11-13-02, 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by cooper2000
One question though. When Jonathon and Andrew were digging, dont you think there would have been a foundation there instead of just dirt?
Well, we can’t have the Hellmouth paved over, can we?

Also, it’s a bit of a stretch to think that something hiding under all that nice soft dirt would go unnoticed all these years. At the very least, Xander has to ask some serious questions of his crew.
Old 11-13-02, 02:00 PM
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So, can anyone shed light on what this
Spoiler:
First Evil thing really is? Is it the devil, aka Satan? If so it would make sense for it to be trying to tempt the Scoobies, as that is what the devil does. Also, if this thing was indeed Cassie, then it was also Warren, Joyce, then probably the Psychiatrist Vamp as well, since it can be many places at once. My theory about it being them all is the fact that it disappeared from each member at almost the same time. Also, did anyone else notice that when the vamp turned to dust Buffy was just standing there holding the stake and looking confused? It seemed to me that she never really staked it, the thing only disappeared at will.


I hate to say this, but Dawn is actually starting to grow on me. She didn't really whine in this one as much as just be frightened and standing her ground well all things considered. Loved her little anchovies limerick!
Old 11-13-02, 02:15 PM
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Excellent episode!

The 'big bad' is on the loose and there's a lot of questions to be dealt with for the rest of the season.

My theory is that it wasn't Spike who killed the girl - something odd about the way he grabbed his face after he killed her...

I actually guessed about the big bad's identity and it sounds like I'm right.
Spoiler:
That season 3 episode involved Angel seeing dead people who convinced him to kill himself. Sounds like a familiar strategy.


Sorry to see Jonathan go, now Andrew has no one to be funny with.

After the mixed reactions to last week's episode, its great to see everyone excited about the show again...
Old 11-13-02, 02:20 PM
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So is this big bad just another demon or the Ultimate Demon? If it is the one from the aforementioned season, the kudos to Joss for placing a potential so early in the series' run.
Old 11-13-02, 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by MrN
My theory is that it wasn't Spike who killed the girl - something odd about the way he grabbed his face after he killed her...
OK, just who the heck was that girl, anyway?

It seems to me that the Spike segments were filmed with sorta different lighting, almost making it look like it was a dream sequence. And it wasn’t presented with the same “presence” that the other four (Dawn, Willow, Buffy, The Trio-Minus-One) were. Almost like a back story. Or did I doze off again?
Old 11-13-02, 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by Wizdar
OK, just who the heck was that girl, anyway?

It seems to me that the Spike segments were filmed with sorta different lighting, almost making it look like it was a dream sequence. And it wasn’t presented with the same “presence” that the other four (Dawn, Willow, Buffy, The Trio-Minus-One) were. Almost like a back story. Or did I doze off again?
She was just a random victim (who we might see again, if indeed Spike sired her as well as Holden) I think the Spike sequences were real enough, the director just used dramatic lighting and music to heighten the shock factor when he bit her neck. Every character's story this week was filmed very differently from each other (to contrast I suppose).
Old 11-13-02, 02:44 PM
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Isn't it always the case that the big bad is almost invincible and omnipotent and yet it'll need some weak human to "free" it and can somehow be defeated by actions of some weak human? And also, why is it that big bad evil is always portraited as all powerful and the good always has to work through some human being? Where is the big good? If human is the only good, then we're screwed! 8-)

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